Britain and the European Union

[Kirran]

The leave.eu campaign is doing themselves no favours with me today. Apparently we don't have an area coordinator so I couldn't have any flyers or leaflets. I didn't really want the job of coordinator as I'm not that kind of organiser, but happy to do my bit. Eventually, after sending them an email outlining my disappointment and frustration they apologised and agreed to send me some stuff. I wonder if this is what is happening everywhere else ? They appear to be treating it like an election and only working in areas that aren't staunch Labour which is stupid in a referendum where every vote counts as one vote. It's damned hard work trying to be an unpaid volunteer.

 

I hear the Remain campaign is well-organised - you'll have to switch sides

 

My father has somehow managed to become a prominent figure in the Remain campaign in his area - he's gonna be interviewed by CNN International!

[ralis]

Who would decide what is illegal?

 

Also, last year my mother got breast cancer. She had a mammectomy, went through chemo and radiotherapy, and is now OK. Didn't spend a penny. What would happen to people who didn't have the money to have paid for that? Leave them to it?

 

 

Well said! Karl's neoliberal objectivist ideology is based on me first selfishness and absolute property rights. He fails to understand the dynamics of society and how all can have their needs met. Laissez Faire capitalism has never worked nor is a viable solution to dynamic social constructs.

 

Even with the pipe dream of unfettered capitalism, all the wealth will eventually rise to the top 1%.

Edited April 28, 2016 by ralis

[Kirran]

Well said! Karl's neoliberal objectivist ideology is based on me first selfishness and absolute property rights. He fails to understand the dynamics of society and how all can have their needs met. Laissez Faire capitalism has never worked nor is a viable solution to dynamic social constructs.

 

Even with the pipe dream of unfettered capitalism, all the wealth will eventually rise to the top 1%.

 

Thankyou!

 

I think a lot of it is based on "I've got mine!" - but I'm rather more of the "From each...to each..." school.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Kirran

[Karl]

Who would decide what is illegal?

 

Also, last year my mother got breast cancer. She had a mammectomy, went through chemo and radiotherapy, and is now OK. Didn't spend a penny. What would happen to people who didn't have the money to have paid for that? Leave them to it?

 

It's pretty straight forward once the philosophy of 'no initiation of force' is adopted. The US did pretty well with its constitution, but failed to tie down some loose ends. The Government itself would be prevented from initiation of force. We would need a chamber of judges and a second chamber of randomly elected citizens to choose the judges.

 

Somebody spent a penny on your mothers healthcare, it wasn't free. All of us who earn are paying taxation to cover those costs. There is no reason why we could not operate competing insurance and health care systems just as we do in every other kind of industry.

 

As an example, in the USSR it was the state who provided footware, yet no one in the West asks how a private organisation could provide shoes, or people afford to buy them. They assume that the state must be providing a product that the private sector could not and that people woukd end up barefoot. Yet that doesn't happen. Indeed you can discover charity shops filled with shoes no one has ever worn for a few pence. People happily give them away, which would be an unthinkable situation where the services are still provided by the state.

 

Secondly we can have charities that help those who genuinely cannot afford the insurance costs and even hospitals that will set themselves up as charity hospitals. Even today this is relatively common as people regularly run and collect for millions of health charities and not to forget the option of lotteries.

 

However, as in the example of shoe manufacture; when a laissez faire market is involved in production, then the costs fall dramatically. There are multiple categories of business providing for all pockets. If the state had to make cars, then we end up with over priced, rationed and poor quality vehicles that create lots of pollution, drive badly and are inefficient. Yet, when the private sector is involved, even some of the very poorest can afford something used which is far better than the state could produce, at a fraction of the price, with higher quality and performance.

 

I've set this out before, but I wouldn't suggest implementing everything all at once. Certainly health care/pensions woukd need to be one of the last things to be dismantled. We don't even have laissez faire capitalism or monetary system. Let's get those sorted first. Let's get tax payers money out of organisations that are primary recipients such as NGOs, big businesses, banks, land owners, farmers, licensing and every other wonk outfit leaching off the tax payer and cut the taxes for everyone.

[ralis]

Thankyou!

 

I think a lot of it is based on "I've got mine!" - but I'm rather more of the "From each...to each..." school.

 

Nothing happens in a vacuum despite what some want to believe. We are all in this together!

[Chang]

Thankyou!

 

I think a lot of it is based on "I've got mine!" - but I'm rather more of the "From each...to each..." school.

 

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

 

We really could not have made you up Kirran.

[Chang]

Nothing happens in a vacuum despite what some want to believe. We are all in this together!

 

Yes we are all in this together so please remember. When you have one foot stuck in the shite it is never a good idea to plunge the other one in - in an effort to haul yourself out. Politicians, especially those of the liberal and socialist persuation, tend to forget this.

[Karl]

I hear the Remain campaign is well-organised - you'll have to switch sides

 

My father has somehow managed to become a prominent figure in the Remain campaign in his area - he's gonna be interviewed by CNN International!

 

I nearly threatened that but thought it was a touch childish.

 

Why does he want to remain ? I'm always interested because I can see no earthly reason for staying. The EU is knackered and getting more knackered. The only people campaigning to stay are either IMO they are deluded, or they make a living from the EU in some respect-such as farmers. It's not always obvious. Some companies such as lease, PR, press, marketing, lobbyists do very well out of the system, but they really produce nothing of any use except as soak pits for the tax payers money through Brussels employ.

[Karl]

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

 

We really could not have made you up Kirran.

 

Socialists never answer why they believe this is true. They raise a banner and act as if it's a statement of proven fact. They also fail to answer the second most important question 'who pays?'

[Chang]

Socialism is a soapy sponge that soaks up all it touches until all that is left is desiccation. Hence the term "Socialist Sponger."

[Karl]

Well said! Karl's neoliberal objectivist ideology is based on me first selfishness and absolute property rights. He fails to understand the dynamics of society and how all can have their needs met. Laissez Faire capitalism has never worked nor is a viable solution to dynamic social constructs.

 

Even with the pipe dream of unfettered capitalism, all the wealth will eventually rise to the top 1%.

 

Yet you have witnessed the collapse of every socialist state that has ever existed (in which those in power became very wealthy compared to the rest) and our current hybrid democracy which is also failing because it has succumbed to the same barbaric thinking, primarily because democracy is a half way house to the same totalitarianism.

 

You keep saying 'have their needs met' but you fail to explain how.

 

Laissez faire capitalism has worked extremely well and accounted for Americas rapid rise in fortune in a very short space of time. It was the gradual abandonment of laissez faire beginning in the mid 19th century that is now responsible for the collapse. Luckily, the amount of wealth accumulated over the period when the free market operated and the gradually closing door over the last 100 or so years has allowed the US to remain the largest economy. However, now that China and India have begun to free their economies from socialism, they to are flourishing once again.

 

Anytime the state let's go of commerce, then the people thrive. The problem is stopping the state from intervening.

[Karl]

I notice France is having a series of riots over the changes the socialist government under Hollande are applying to labour laws.

It's a great advertisement for the EU and should be a shot in the eye for the socialists over here that believe they can reform the EU to match their utopian dreams..err 'fraid not

 

 

http://ec.europa.eu/europe2020/pdf/csr2015/csr2015_france_en.pdf

 

It is Brussels that is strongly suggesting they get their house in order.

 

What they also fail to realise is that the real master is Germany. It was Germany that cut the red tape on labour laws, reduced wages and cut spending in order to improve their economy. Brussels-as the bureaucratic wing of the growing German empire-implements the policies Germany demands of its vassal states.

 

I noticed the BBC isn't showing any of the riots and they haven't mentioned the up and coming Greek tragedy coming in July. Unfortunately Greece is again left broke and the Troika are ready to give them another good hammering to ensure they keep on paying.

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad

Edited April 28, 2016 by Karl

[ralis]

Yet you have witnessed the collapse of every socialist state that has ever existed (in which those in power became very wealthy compared to the rest) and our current hybrid democracy which is also failing because it has succumbed to the same barbaric thinking, primarily because democracy is a half way house to the same totalitarianism. You keep saying 'have their needs met' but you fail to explain how. Laissez faire capitalism has worked extremely well and accounted for Americas rapid rise in fortune in a very short space of time. It was the gradual abandonment of laissez faire beginning in the mid 19th century that is now responsible for the collapse. Luckily, the amount of wealth accumulated over the period when the free market operated and the gradually closing door over the last 100 or so years has allowed the US to remain the largest economy. However, now that China and India have begun to free their economies from socialism, they to are flourishing once again. Anytime the state let's go of commerce, then the people thrive. The problem is stopping the state from intervening.

 

The 'Gilded Age' with it's 'Robber Barons' benefited a few while the rest were in poverty. The picture you paint never existed. I guess you want to here yourself talk.

 

For a site such as this, there are many here that have no realization or awareness whatsoever. The basic tenets of Taoism and Buddhism are not in agreement with the unfounded notion that wealth and selfishness are somehow of great benefit.

Edited April 28, 2016 by ralis

[Karl]

The 'Gilded Age' with it's 'Robber Barons' benefited a few while the rest were in poverty. The picture you paint never existed. I guess you want to here yourself talk.

 

For a site such as this, there are many here that have no realization or awareness whatsoever. The basic tenets of Taoism and Buddhism are not in agreement with the unfounded notion that wealth and selfishness are somehow of great benefit.

 

Ah the good old perjorative 'robber barons' but, just as socialists insist on calling free market capitalism a failure despite the fact it's their actions that have helped create the current twisted version (crony capitalism), so they do so historically. There were most definitely Robber Barons, but you fail to make the distinction between market and political entrepreneurs. It was the political entrepreneurs that were using government clout and subsidies to fill their pockets and the pockets of the politicians who had assisted them.

 

Not that you care much for history or facts when you are pushing your socialist agenda, but if you care to explore the subject you will discover it is true. Later Robber Barons convinced the Government to clamp down on competition which they proposed was 'inefficient duplication of effort' and thus began a long series of measures designed to effectively nationalise the big businesses in order that they enjoy all the profits but little risk. It wasn't long before the Labour unions realised how this worked to their advantage and began their own efforts to protect he workforce in these big businesses from competitive elements. So was born the fore runner to the crony capitalism we have today and is stagnation and political corruption that has turned into the two horse spectacle in us democracy.

 

You are quite correct about the Tao if you are talking Confucianism. In fact it is likely that it was the virtues of Confucianism that made Maoist communism so easy to accept.

[ralis]

Ah the good old perjorative 'robber barons' but, just as socialists insist on calling free market capitalism a failure despite the fact it's their actions that have helped create the current twisted version (crony capitalism), so they do so historically. There were most definitely Robber Barons, but you fail to make the distinction between market and political entrepreneurs. It was the political entrepreneurs that were using government clout and subsidies to fill their pockets and the pockets of the politicians who had assisted them. Not that you care much for history or facts when you are pushing your socialist agenda, but if you care to explore the subject you will discover it is true. Later Robber Barons convinced the Government to clamp down on competition which they proposed was 'inefficient duplication of effort' and thus began a long series of measures designed to effectively nationalise the big businesses in order that they enjoy all the profits but little risk. It wasn't long before the Labour unions realised how this worked to their advantage and began their own efforts to protect he workforce in these big businesses from competitive elements. So was born the fore runner to the crony capitalism we have today and is stagnation and political corruption that has turned into the two horse spectacle in us democracy. You are quite correct about the Tao if you are talking Confucianism. In fact it is likely that it was the virtues of Confucianism that made Maoist communism so easy to accept.

 

 

No sense arguing with you given that you know all and see all while making absolutely certain that everyone else is wrong, with the exception of the few that are always thanking you for your marvelous posts.

 

I am talking about the real Tao of nature not some philosophers theory. I understand the Tao by being a part of nature which I spend as much time as possible in.

 

[Karl]

No sense arguing with you given that you know all and see all while making absolutely certain that everyone else is wrong, with the exception of the few that are always thanking you for your marvelous posts.

 

I am talking about the real Tao of nature not some philosophers theory. I understand the Tao by being a part of nature which I spend as much time as possible in.

 

 

They're is a sense in arguing if you can prove that your right Ralis. I have no issue accepting factual, objective argument if you can offer it. You decline then throw in an ad hominem and flounce off. It's really weak to act that way and you learn nothing. I can give you facts dates and back history of some of the greatest market entrepreneurs and the government backed men they fought agains-and eventually lost to. Men like James Hill, Rockefeller and Vanderbilt who carved away at the costs and prices their customers paid and produced wealth for everyone. I don't know who else is interested in economic history though, I suspect it's limited to us few.

 

Well Tao is a philosophers theory Ralis. You wouldn't know about it had a man not thought it and another committed it to paper for you to read. Everything is part of nature.

 

Nice picture by the way. I love to walk and climb in Scotland and the Lake District. I've spent a short time walking in the USA-the arches, Bryce Canyon, Yosemite and the sequoia woods. Loved it.

[ralis]

They're is a sense in arguing if you can prove that your right Ralis. I have no issue accepting factual, objective argument if you can offer it. You decline then throw in an ad hominem and flounce off. It's really weak to act that way and you learn nothing. I can give you facts dates and back history of some of the greatest market entrepreneurs and the government backed men they fought agains-and eventually lost to. Men like James Hill, Rockefeller and Vanderbilt who carved away at the costs and prices their customers paid and produced wealth for everyone. I don't know who else is interested in economic history though, I suspect it's limited to us few. Well Tao is a philosophers theory Ralis. You wouldn't know about it had a man not thought it and another committed it to paper for you to read. Everything is part of nature. Nice picture by the way. I love to walk and climb in Scotland and the Lake District. I've spent a short time walking in the USA-the arches, Bryce Canyon, Yosemite and the sequoia woods. Loved it.

 

I was experiencing the Tao long before I read about it. Calling it Tao or whatever one has a need for is irrelevant to me, the direct experience is relevant.

[Karl]

I was experiencing the Tao long before I read about it. Calling it Tao or whatever one has a need for is irrelevant to me, the direct experience is relevant.

 

You mean you were experiencing an unnamed 'something' which you later integrated together with a piece of work written by someone else which you now relate to as the Tao.

 

 

[ralis]

You mean you were experiencing an unnamed 'something' which you later integrated together with a piece of work written by someone else which you now relate to as the Tao.

 

That was a bad move on your part by assuming that I have read the Tao Te Ching. Never read it!

[Karl]

That was a bad move on your part by assuming that I have read the Tao Te Ching. Never read it!

Sometimes I do wonder if you are just piss taking. At least I could have a laugh with you.

I haven't forgotten that you have wriggled out of arguing your case in the previous postings. Distraction technique ?

Edited April 28, 2016 by Karl

[Chang]

The European Superstate see's itself as an ever expanding empire in which the boundaries of Europe are pushed out into the Near East. The Superstatists see this as an investment in the future but we must remember that such an investment will benefit some but not others.

 

The Home Secretary Theresa May has warned against letting Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey join the EU, saying that they are ‘countries with poor populations and serious problems with organised crime, corruption, and sometimes even terrorism.’

 

Despite this, it is the Government’s position to support these countries’ membership bids. The UK government has agreed to pay £1.2 billion under the EU’s Instrument for Pre-Accession Assistance to these countries between 2014 and 2020, or £169.5 million per year. This is half the annual NHS Cancer Drugs Fund.

 

The EU Commission describes this as an ‘investment in the future of the EU’, which ‘creates incentives for EU future members’. In addition, the UK will pay Turkey a further £640 million as part of the recent EU-Turkey deal designed to facilitate Turkish accession to the EU.

[Karl]

The European Superstate see's itself as an ever expanding empire in which the boundaries of Europe are pushed out into the Near East. The Superstatists see this as an investment in the future but we must remember that such an investment will benefit some but not others.

 

The Home Secretary Theresa May has warned against letting Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey join the EU, saying that they are ‘countries with poor populations and serious problems with organised crime, corruption, and sometimes even terrorism.’

 

Despite this, it is the Government’s position to support these countries’ membership bids. The UK government has agreed to pay £1.2 billion under the EU’s Instrument for Pre-Accession Assistance to these countries between 2014 and 2020, or £169.5 million per year. This is half the annual NHS Cancer Drugs Fund.

 

The EU Commission describes this as an ‘investment in the future of the EU’, which ‘creates incentives for EU future members’. In addition, the UK will pay Turkey a further £640 million as part of the recent EU-Turkey deal designed to facilitate Turkish accession to the EU.

 

That's really what the USSR did after the war, it soaked up a lot of Eastern European states and Germany had precisely the same goal. We should campaign to allow Russia to be part of the EU- then watch the USA have a galactic freak out.

[Chang]

It is interesting that many of the "new" states hoping to enter the E.U. have centuries of hatred and animosity towards one another. Serbia and Montenegro despising their Turkish and Albanian neighbours.

 

The E.U. bureaucrats do not seem to regard past history as being of any importance. They feel that all that has gone before can be forgotten as we enter the brave new world they are so busy creating for us.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Chang

[Karl]

It is interesting that many of the "new" states hoping to enter the E.U. have centuries of hatred an animosity towards one another. Serbia and Montenegro despising their Turkish and Albanian neighbours.

 

The E.U. bureoucrats do not seem to regard past history as being of any importance. They feel that all that has gone before can be forgotten as we enter the brave new world they are so busy creating for us.

 

Germany have always had that mentality. It is the nation from which came the philosophies of Kant, Hegel and Marx. They believe in pragmatic scientism. Essentially every problem can be solved by the application of science in an experimental way. Thus, if one method fails, then maybe another method will work. They have an overarching belief in this philosophy to the extent that people are regarded by them as essentially a commodity. It isn't that far removed from Marx and Engels, which is why Nazi Germany was founded on National Socialism. Where the USSR had one version of socialism which was failing, the Nazi government thought that a pragmatic change to the economic system would correct that issue. They have never managed to get over that philosophy and it has been adopted across the west, just as the Prussian system of education was adopted.

 

Brussels are the German management class.

[Apech]

It is interesting that many of the "new" states hoping to enter the E.U. have centuries of hatred and animosity towards one another. Serbia and Montenegro despising their Turkish and Albanian neighbours.

 

The E.U. bureaucrats do not seem to regard past history as being of any importance. They feel that all that has gone before can be forgotten as we enter the brave new world they are so busy creating for us.

 

 

What people forget is that there is still a Liverpudlian enclave in the Northwest of England and that the centre of England is dominated by a post industrial wasteland called Birmingham.   Far up in the North is a great ice wall which prevents the Scottish Nationalists from swarming down into Northumbria, thence Mercia and so into the heartland of Wessex.  We live in perilous times - may the Goode Lord preserve our souls - for we have fallen into fornication.