Britain and the European Union

[Karl]

Yes, that's true. I was pointing to a historical, cultural legacy of white Christian European culture which, as I think we covered some while back, was the culture under constant threat/attack from the Turkish Ottoman Empire. This is an empire which, despite its collapse, is still of the opinion that it needs to convert the infidel. It's almost a reverse history of black slavery, in which it is the white Christians that were being taken as slaves and had racial apartheid practised against them.

 

Unfortunately we have opened the doors to one and all regardless of their ideology. I'm sure that some are opposed to immigration and are racially discriminating, but as long as somebody wants to come to my country, to mix in my culture and uphold the traditions and values of that culture, then they are welcome. I have to say, that living in segregated communities, dressing like you are still in the Middle East, practising sharia law, refusing to speak English, making little attempt to fit in and building mosques everywhere begins to look suspiciously like an invading army minus the guns (which aren't required if the invaded countries Government is lowering the drawbridge and forcing multiculturalism on the indigenous population by law).

 

The reason people usually emigrate is that they like the customs and culture of the country to which they are emigrating. That doesn't mean to say you don't bring elements of your own culture with you, but you do so in a way in which it fits the culture of that country. Hence we have curry houses and Chinese restaurants which adopted with glee. We have businessmen, doctors, solicitors, builders, nurses, car mechanics that conform to what we expect of people who provide those services to us provide.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Karl

[Apech]

Yes clearly the tension is between western secularism and political Islam (the desire to establish a Caliphate run by Sharia Law).  Its an odd but thoroughly logical fact that the freedoms we have to discuss on here all kinds of views, including a full range of religious views, is guaranteed by the secular state - the best example being the US Constitution.

 

Despite what admiration some of us may have for Sufism for instance, there is no doubt that islam uniquely takes the 'mono' approach of the Abrahamic religions to a new level.  For me integration into our culture is not even the point, since for instance Hassidic Jewish communities in our great cities do not integrate much - but live peaceably amongst us - as do groups like the Amish and so on.  So I don't even insist on people adopting my values, clothing and so on - but I do insist that they don't aggressively hate us and what we stand for.  They can build mosques if they want but I don't want them burning books or shooting cartoonists.  It would seem that this interpretation of Islam far from being a minority view is now amongst teachers and scholars of the religion the majority view.  And while it is a minority who commit acts of terror - and very often the foot soldiers in this respect are converted petty criminals and the like - there is enough tacit support to make the whole thing very scary indeed.

[Karl]

Yes clearly the tension is between western secularism and political Islam (the desire to establish a Caliphate run by Sharia Law).  Its an odd but thoroughly logical fact that the freedoms we have to discuss on here all kinds of views, including a full range of religious views, is guaranteed by the secular state - the best example being the US Constitution.

 

Despite what admiration some of us may have for Sufism for instance, there is no doubt that islam uniquely takes the 'mono' approach of the Abrahamic religions to a new level.  For me integration into our culture is not even the point, since for instance Hassidic Jewish communities in our great cities do not integrate much - but live peaceably amongst us - as do groups like the Amish and so on.  So I don't even insist on people adopting my values, clothing and so on - but I do insist that they don't aggressively hate us and what we stand for.  They can build mosques if they want but I don't want them burning books or shooting cartoonists.  It would seem that this interpretation of Islam far from being a minority view is now amongst teachers and scholars of the religion the majority view.  And while it is a minority who commit acts of terror - and very often the foot soldiers in this respect are converted petty criminals and the like - there is enough tacit support to make the whole thing very scary indeed.

 

That's a very libertarian view and I would certainly agree where every bit of used land was private property. However, that's not how it is. Instead people have no choice but to accept immigrants pouring into their streets. Of course these immigrants aren't pouring into Mayfair or Primrose Hill, these are poor migrants and are sandwiched amongst the working poor. Their arrival usually means a forced exodus as the immigrants can make living in the area uncomfortable for the original residents.

 

The councils have to be seen to promote multiculturalism and so they are keen to offer planning permission for mosques where other businesses have been refused, they are also subsidising community events and meeting places which inevitably are used as Sharia staging posts. Of course the temptation is to brush this off as utter toss and bigotry on behalf of the unhappy whites, but we had an undercover TV program that showed this is going on.

 

In a libertarian paradise then, as long as no group is threatening another group, then communes are an acceptable normality. Those communes can then decide on who they wish to allow entrance to (just as this should be done at the borders). However, in the UK that is not what we have. Groups are politicised, they are lobbying for special privilige and know precisely how to get it. We don't have privatised communes and so we must rely on the state not to turn our lives into a living hell by allowing millions of culturally deficient immigrants to park themselves on our lawns.

[dust]

They can build mosques if they want but I don't want them burning books or shooting cartoonists.  It would seem that this interpretation of Islam far from being a minority view is now amongst teachers and scholars of the religion the majority view.  And while it is a minority who commit acts of terror - and very often the foot soldiers in this respect are converted petty criminals and the like - there is enough tacit support to make the whole thing very scary indeed.

 

Not you too...

 

Islamic scripture absolutely encourages violence, sexism, oppression, etc, just as the other Abrahamic religions do. And in the religious world, there seems to be a greater ratio of fundamentalist Muslims than fundamentalist Christians. But the majority of Muslims in the UK do not support violent jihad or terrorism, and indeed are against it.

 

People like to skew the numbers. An article says that "100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers", neglecting to mention that this is less than 3% of the British Muslims population at the time and that this does not mean that all these people think suicide bombing is a good thing.

 

If you look at the survey, out of 1081 people,

 

Views on caliphate: 30 "Very strongly" support, 30 "Fairly strongly"

Sympathetic to extremism: 15 "Very strongly" sympathetic, 23 "Fairly strongly"

 

The majority in each case is "Very strongly" against stoning; condemn terrorist actions; condemn the caliphate; against violence; against extremism.

 

There is a more even weight on the question of homosexuality, but if you look at Muslims vs Christians vs non-religious people in the UK: 52% of Muslims are against, around 37-47% of Christians are against, and around 20% non-religious are against. All of those numbers are too high in my opinion, but the Christians aren't actually much better than the Muslims.

 

I'm not defending Islam -- all religions should be flushed, as far as I'm concerned. I am defending simple fucking honesty. There's a problem, sure, but it's not as bad as some of you seem to want it to be.

[Apech]

Not you too...

 

Islamic scripture absolutely encourages violence, sexism, oppression, etc, just as the other Abrahamic religions do. And in the religious world, there seems to be a greater ratio of fundamentalist Muslims than fundamentalist Christians. But the majority of Muslims in the UK do not support violent jihad or terrorism, and indeed are against it.

 

People like to skew the numbers. An article says that "100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers", neglecting to mention that this is less than 3% of the British Muslims population at the time and that this does not mean that all these people think suicide bombing is a good thing.

 

If you look at the survey, out of 1081 people,

 

Views on caliphate: 30 "Very strongly" support, 30 "Fairly strongly"

Sympathetic to extremism: 15 "Very strongly" sympathetic, 23 "Fairly strongly"

 

The majority in each case is "Very strongly" against stoning; condemn terrorist actions; condemn the caliphate; against violence; against extremism.

 

There is a more even weight on the question of homosexuality, but if you look at Muslims vs Christians vs non-religious people in the UK: 52% of Muslims are against, around 37-47% of Christians are against, and around 20% non-religious are against. All of those numbers are too high in my opinion, but the Christians aren't actually much better than the Muslims.

 

I'm not defending Islam -- all religions should be flushed, as far as I'm concerned. I am defending simple fucking honesty. There's a problem, sure, but it's not as bad as some of you seem to want it to be.

 

15% very strongly and 23% fairly strongly sympathetic to extremism is still scary.

[zerostao]

join together band together while you can

do you have a constitution? apech mentioned the us constitution, remarkable document that it is,

norway and iceland are standing strong.

surely britain would do fine on its own

 

[dust]

15% very strongly and 23% fairly strongly sympathetic to extremism is still scary.

 

No! Not 15% and 23%, 15 people and 23 people. Out of 1081 people! That's 3.5% altogether.

 

And yes, even that is still scary. But I bet, if we did a survey of even non-religious British people, at least 3% would "sympathize" with violence against Muslims. It's not a one-way thing. Surveys do show that the majority of non-Muslim Brits perceive Muslims as terrorists (and while I think we can agree that some are, we can also agree that most are not -- otherwise we'd have been blown to death already..).

 

 

 

surely britain would do fine on its own

 

Like Texas?

 

 

 

(I get your point, but find it slightly ironic that you mention the US constitution and then suggest not wanting to be part of a federal union -- the reason the USA grew to such an extent of power is precisely because it banded together, no?)

 

Yeah, Britain would do fine on its own. And fine in the EU. We're all going to be pretty fine either way, I think.

[Apech]

No! Not 15% and 23%, 15 people and 23 people. Out of 1081 people! That's 3.5% altogether.

 

And yes, even that is still scary. But I bet, if we did a survey of even non-religious British people, at least 3% would "sympathize" with violence against Muslims. It's not a one-way thing. Surveys do show that the majority of non-Muslim Brits perceive Muslims as terrorists (and while I think we can agree that some are, we can also agree that most are not -- otherwise we'd have been blown to death already..).

 

Ok I thought you were quoting percentages.

 

When I lived in Manchester I would say that the 'asian' population who were majority muslim but also Hindu were one of the key driving forces in the commercial life of the city.  Particularly in retail/wholesale sales.  There was clearly quite a large middle class growing in that community which had high expectations for its children.  It would be very surprising to find support for terrorism or extremism in that community I think.

 

Where the difference lies perhaps is when there is secular challenge to muslim ideas.  There is a big difference to the reaction to criticising Jesus and Mohammed.  One of which could lead you into deep trouble.  I think that the understandable wish to avoid reprisals and so on - has led politicians to mouth the 'religion of peace' idea - without understanding that there is a connection between what it says in the Koran and the actions of ISIS for instance.  They use scripture to justify their acts.  And in the absence of vigorous challenge this is worrying. 

 

[Karl]

Christianity is the religion of peace by appeasement and Islam it is peace by conquest. Eternal sacrifice of the vanquished vs eternal sacrifice of the conquistadors. Neither of these has a future. When Christianity gives up appeasement (as it did when it took up arms against the Ottomans) or when Islam gives up its bloody conquest then there will be peace. Unfortunately the same battle has re-ignited between those who wish to sacrifice the individual to the collective and those that wish to sacrifice the collective to the individual.

 

Humans are just nuts.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Karl

[joeblast]

join together band together while you can

do you have a constitution? apech mentioned the us constitution, remarkable document that it is,

norway and iceland are standing strong.

surely britain would do fine on its own

 

what constitution

 

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/10/americans-have-lost-virtually-all-of-our-constitutional-rights.html

 

 

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/01/13/constitution-free-zones-controversial-obama-administration-policy.html

 

 66 Percent of Americans Now Live in a Constitution-Free Zone Thanks to the militarization and expansion of the “border” region, 197 million Americans now live within the jurisdiction of US Customs and Border Patrol.

http://www.thenation.com/article/66-percent-americans-now-live-constitution-free-zone/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/01/13/constitution-free-zones-controversial-obama-administration-policy.html

[Jetsun]

Ok I thought you were quoting percentages.

 

When I lived in Manchester I would say that the 'asian' population who were majority muslim but also Hindu were one of the key driving forces in the commercial life of the city. Particularly in retail/wholesale sales. There was clearly quite a large middle class growing in that community which had high expectations for its children. It would be very surprising to find support for terrorism or extremism in that community I think

When I lived in Manchester they were openly giving out Jihad leaflets and pamphlets on the streets. Probably not any more as it's illegal, but I'm not sure being wealthy or class has anything to do with it as some of the London bombers from Leeds were relatively wealthy and successful and the attempted terrorism in Glasgow was done by trained doctors. It's known that some Muslim NHS doctors from the UK have gone off to Syria. At least in the UK the terrorists don't fit the stereotype of being poor, badly educated and excluded, infact many were the complete opposite.

[Chang]

Religious fanaticism will pervade all strata’s of society and it is foolish to think otherwise.

 

I believe that it was Dodgy Dave Cameron who stated on a couple of occasions that Mr Khan at the corner shop should not be associated with Jihadi’s but the fact is that good old Mr Khan is as likely to be involved in Islamic terrorism as any other Muslim.

[Apech]

Christianity is the religion of peace by appeasement and Islam it is peace by conquest. Eternal sacrifice of the vanquished vs eternal sacrifice of the conquistadors. Neither of these has a future. When Christianity gives up appeasement (as it did when it took up arms against the Ottomans) or when Islam gives up its bloody conquest then there will be peace. Unfortunately the same battle has re-ignited between those who wish to sacrifice the individual to the collective and those that wish to sacrifice the collective to the individual.

 

Humans are just nuts.

 

 

I don't think Ferdinand and Isabella were well known for their appeasement.

[Apech]

When I lived in Manchester they were openly giving out Jihad leaflets and pamphlets on the streets. Probably not any more as it's illegal, but I'm not sure being wealthy or class has anything to do with it as some of the London bombers from Leeds were relatively wealthy and successful and the attempted terrorism in Glasgow was done by trained doctors. It's known that some Muslim NHS doctors from the UK have gone off to Syria. At least in the UK the terrorists don't fit the stereotype of being poor, badly educated and excluded, infact many were the complete opposite.

 

 

Yes good point.  

[joeblast]

Christianity is the religion of peace by appeasement and Islam it is peace by conquest. Eternal sacrifice of the vanquished vs eternal sacrifice of the conquistadors. Neither of these has a future. When Christianity gives up appeasement (as it did when it took up arms against the Ottomans) or when Islam gives up its bloody conquest then there will be peace. Unfortunately the same battle has re-ignited between those who wish to sacrifice the individual to the collective and those that wish to sacrifice the collective to the individual.

 

Humans are just nuts.

the conquistadors already conquered and have the masses preying to their 'god'-mi-ore

 

when the totality of the world's currencies are conquered, gold will magically have its value restored, especially once solomon's temple is rebuilt and paved with it

[Karl]

the conquistadors already conquered and have the masses preying to their 'god'-mi-ore

 

when the totality of the world's currencies are conquered, gold will magically have its value restored, especially once solomon's temple is rebuilt and paved with it

 

A good reason to have a few oz of bullion hidden away.

[dust]

or the fact that it has become a club for big crony corporates-Goldman Sachs/JP Morgan are backing the remain campaign with hard money.

 

When you say "hard money", you do realize you're talking about a few hundred thousand? Hardly devastating.

 

You also realize that the IMF and World Bank and Bank of England are in favour of Britain in the EU?

 

Is it a worldwide conspiracy, or is it simply that it makes more sense?

[Karl]

When you say "hard money", you do realize you're talking about a few hundred thousand? Hardly devastating.

 

You also realize that the IMF and World Bank and Bank of England are in favour of Britain in the EU?

 

Is it a worldwide conspiracy, or is it simply that it makes more sense?

Half a million you mean ? plus the resources of Goldman Sachs piled into the campaign obliquely. The IMF, BoE and World Bank can't be seen to directly fund the remain campaign as they are supposed to be impartial and must be seen by the public to be impeachable. Goldman and Morgan's are private institutions and can contribute funding, but they can only contribute a limited amount.

 

It makes more sense if you are a banker, politician, crony that is terrified of something that might reveal their poker hand as complete rubbish. If you are a person who works for a living at some kind of job, or business that is disconnected from this crony bubble, then you should vote to leave if you want something to change. If you are completely happy with the way the world is going, or you have some skin in the game then you should probably vote to stay.

 

I believe in reason, independence, freedom, justice, productivity, honesty, integrity and pride. I see nothing in the EU which mirrors those virtues. It looks like a massive corrupt boondoggle designed by an elite, for the elite and run by the elite. They throw some crumbs from their high table to the serfs in the belief the serfs are too stupid to see what's going on. There are those who are easily persuaded to the belief that receiving these few crumbs gives them some kind of special status and that removing the elite would leave them worse off-and it may be so, just like the street beggar who no longer receives a small hand out, then he must find work for which he will likely receive far more, but for which he must produce by 'the sweat of his brow'. You can't have something for nothing except if you are robbing or conning someone else-that's what the EU is.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Karl

[dust]

Five hundred thousand. A few hundred thousand. Half a million.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/16/revealed-none-of-britain-tech-unicorns-openly-support-brexit

 

'The absence of any public support for Brexit reflects the wider attitude of Britain’s technology sector. In March, a survey of members of the industry body Tech London Advocates revealed that 87% were against Brexit, with just 3% prepared to support leaving the EU.

"... 60% of all European corporates of size now have their headquarters in London. That’s a great position and that’s why we’ve got in my view the best city in the world."'

[Karl]

Five hundred thousand. A few hundred thousand. Half a million.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/16/revealed-none-of-britain-tech-unicorns-openly-support-brexit

 

'The absence of any public support for Brexit reflects the wider attitude of Britain’s technology sector. In March, a survey of members of the industry body Tech London Advocates revealed that 87% were against Brexit, with just 3% prepared to support leaving the EU.

"... 60% of all European corporates of size now have their headquarters in London. That’s a great position and that’s why we’ve got in my view the best city in the world."'

 

It's immaterial. This is your choice, independent of what some other guy is getting out of EU membership. I have a philosophy which is what guides my life and the EU doesn't belong to it. For me it's simple, I don't require anecdotal evidence, propaganda or 'experts' to help me reach a conclusion. It's straight forward and simple. I know this isn't the case for others, they are swayed by what the experts say (on both sides), so, unfortunately we have to play this kind of game. Personally I've had enough, if someone hasn't made up their minds then I will try and give them the alternate argument as clearly as possible, but for me I made my mind up years ago.

[Chang]

It's immaterial. This is your choice, independent of what some other guy is getting out of EU membership. I have a philosophy which is what guides my life and the EU doesn't belong to it. For me it's simple, I don't require anecdotal evidence, propaganda or 'experts' to help me reach a conclusion. It's straight forward and simple. I know this isn't the case for others, they are swayed by what the experts say (on both sides), so, unfortunately we have to play this kind of game. Personally I've had enough, if someone hasn't made up their minds then I will try and give them the alternate argument as clearly as possible, but for me I made my mind up years ago.

 

I have to agree wholeheartedly and am amazed that there are still so many ditherers who apparently remain undecided on which way to vote. One has to wonder what they have been doing all these years as the E.U. has worked it wonders. It can only be a case of having eyes they see not and ears they hear not.

[Karl]

I have to agree wholeheartedly and am amazed that there are still so many ditherers who apparently remain undecided on which way to vote. One has to wonder what they have been doing all these years as the E.U. has worked it wonders. It can only be a case of having eyes they see not and ears they hear not.

 

We have just had two friends around for lunch, both are committed to staying in because Obama/IMF/BoE/OECD says it is financially better. They are both public sector workers and I think that this really determines their thinking in regard to career and pension. I can see that this would be a pull, indeed, ironically it's the old folks who have least to gain who are voting to leave. Possibly they see a free Britain as more important having had a deeper connection to wars we have conducted for that purpose.

[dust]

it's the old folks who have least to gain who are voting to leave.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/21/eu-referendum-who-in-britain-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-rem/

 

Says quite a lot.

 

 

 

Possibly they see a free Britain as more important having had a deeper connection to wars we have conducted for that purpose.

 

I'm not certain which wars you are referring to, but I for one would look to the World Wars as honest fights for freedom from a genuine looming threat; and, if we are referring to the World Wars, you should probably let someone who actually conducted one of them on the UK's behalf have a say in the matter:

 

http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

 

"It is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe.

...

In order that this should be accomplished, there must be an act of faith in which millions of families speaking many languages must consciously take part.

...

Great Britain ... must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine."

[Karl]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/21/eu-referendum-who-in-britain-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-rem/

 

Says quite a lot.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not certain which wars you are referring to, but I for one would look to the World Wars as honest fights for freedom from a genuine looming threat; and, if we are referring to the World Wars, you should probably let someone who actually conducted one of them on the UK's behalf have a say in the matter:

 

http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

 

"It is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe.

...

In order that this should be accomplished, there must be an act of faith in which millions of families speaking many languages must consciously take part.

...

Great Britain ... must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine."

 

We were never meant to have joined and we did support the new Europe to a greater extent than had been envisaged.

 

I agree with that quote. We did what was necessary for the Europe to become succesful, indeed at one point it was even more succesful than Britain. However, we have done our work, Europe is a long time saved from the state of conflict in which it once rested. We need to get out of their way and let them complete it. It's time for us to heal the rest of the world.

[zerostao]

seems as appropriate a thread as any to mention june 6 is the anniversary of D-Day.