Britain and the European Union

[Karl]

Oh no, I've heard that these statistics aren't that far off. But they just don't cover what percentage of each group turned out, nor their numbers. Yes, the 18-24 group were strongly Remain, but they couldn't be bothered to vote, so their influence was low.

I didn't mean the voters, I meant the crap about free university, cheap houses, high wages and financial stability because of the EU.

 

Older people got an education and were told that they should work hard, pay their taxes and would be looked after by the state. Then we got shafted, as did the young.

[Jetsun]

baby boomers? I think you're getting your generations screwed up. baby boomers had a realistic level of layout for college - like on the order of a couple hundred bucks a semester - whereas by the time the next generation was in, it saw a tenfold increase to a few thousand a semester, and now with this generation we've seen another tenfold increase and its tens of thousands.

 

you remember when the EU came into being yes? mid 90s or so, iirc? "baby boomers" children were the ones in college then, so it is completely erroneous to try and assert that the EU had anything to do with free education or pensions or some supposed stability attributed to the existence of the EU, especially with respect to said boomers.

In the UK university education was free until 1998

[Jetsun]

I didn't mean the voters, I meant the crap about free university, cheap houses, high wages and financial stability because of the EU.

 

Older people got an education and were told that they should work hard, pay their taxes and would be looked after by the state. Then we got shafted, as did the young.

How did you get shafted? if you bought a house during that period anywhere down south you are quite likely to be close to a millionaire now. Generous pensions of that era are guaranteed by the state.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Jetsun

[Jetsun]

Only by chance, I've just been reading an article on the BBC website on this very issue ...

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36574526

 

 

It basically says that, yes, it was the older generation coming out to vote against the EU which resulted in Brexit. But, if the younger generation can't be bothered to get round to voting then ... ummm ... they don't get a lot of sympathy.

 

Yes the young people are going to have to learn the hard way how the older generation have shafted their future, which hopefully means that they will get more politically active and some fresh blood comes into politics

[Karl]

How did you get shafted? if you bought a house during that period anywhere down south you are quite likely to be close to a millionaire now. Generous pensions of that era are guaranteed by the state.

If you had a house down South and it increased rapidly in value, you still only had a house. If you wanted to move into a less desirable area then you could release a bit of equity, but that has always been true.

 

You are looking at this upside down. You should be asking why house prices increased so rapidly (and that was happening prior to increased immigration).

 

The only 'generous pensions' were in the public sector. The rest of us got nothing and our private pensions and savings have been crushed flat in order to boost house prices and provide cheap credit to home buyers.

 

Those that did quite well were the earlier generations, but then they didn't have cheap credit so had to save for everything. Houses were cheaper because loans were expensive and difficult to get. That meant that saving was valued and banks paid decent interest. Any potential homebuyer needed a salary which was a third of the cost of the loan, they also needed 10% minimum (often 20/25%) deposit and any mortgage lender would scrupulously check all outgoings to ensure the lender could pay. Often we moved into our new houses with some bits of secondhand furniture and packing crates for tables.

 

Our so called 'free' university education was strictly rationed by numbers and merit. Far fewer of us took further education because we weren't sufficiently academic. Only the brightest went to uni and they took professional qualifications.

 

There were more jobs, but then the pay was lower, the working conditions worse, there was no maternity/sick pay/minimum pay/tax credits/child care and all the rest. That meant that low pay jobs were more plentiful and people could get on the employment ladder and work hard to succeed.

[Karl]

Yes the young people are going to have to learn the hard way how the older generation have shafted their future, which hopefully means that they will get more politically active and some fresh blood comes into politics

The opposite. For the older it is a chance to help the young. Staying in the EU is better if you are older.

[Karl]

In the UK university education was free until 1998

If you could get the qualification and there were places available. Most of us weren't academically inclined and got low paid jobs or apprenticeships.

[Apech]

I see Martin Schultz the President of the Euro Parliament wants us out as quickly as possible ... so it's 'don't go, don't go ... oh fuck off then!'  - they are an arrogant bunch of twats when it gets down to it.

[joeblast]

In the UK university education was free until 1998

 true....and thanks for helping me make my point

[joeblast]

If you could get the qualification and there were places available. Most of us weren't academically inclined and got low paid jobs or apprenticeships.

and its now the apprenticeships that are getting into the work force much earlier, with exponentially less debt...

[Karl]

and its now the apprenticeships that are getting into the work force much earlier, with exponentially less debt...

And there would be many more getting a start had it not been for EU 'workers rights' and work related tax payer schemes.

[Karl]

I see Martin Schultz the President of the Euro Parliament wants us out as quickly as possible ... so it's 'don't go, don't go ... oh fuck off then!'  - they are an arrogant bunch of twats when it gets down to it.

I feel closer now, with greater empathy for those still trapped in the EU nightmare. I wonder how we could help them claim back their lives from the gravy train bureaucrats, lobbyists and corporations.

[Apech]

I feel closer now, with greater empathy for those still trapped in the EU nightmare. I wonder how we could help them claim back their lives from the gravy train bureaucrats, lobbyists and corporations.

 

 

I was speculating this morning whether this would force Germany and France (plus Belgium and others) into actual federal union - to protect their 'vision' of the future of Europe.  This would leave the peripheral countries in a single market with weak ties to the centre.  I can't see the Iberian countries joining in - and the Eastern bloc is in a different relation entirely.

 

In some ways - the reason the EU developed in the way it did is because the underlying plan of federal union was not realised.  Had it been then I suspect better democratic processes might have been put in place.  It is really an over ambitious plan which stumbled and (possibly) fell.

 

Just a thought.

[Karl]

I was speculating this morning whether this would force Germany and France (plus Belgium and others) into actual federal union - to protect their 'vision' of the future of Europe. This would leave the peripheral countries in a single market with weak ties to the centre. I can't see the Iberian countries joining in - and the Eastern bloc is in a different relation entirely.

 

In some ways - the reason the EU developed in the way it did is because the underlying plan of federal union was not realised. Had it been then I suspect better democratic processes might have been put in place. It is really an over ambitious plan which stumbled and (possibly) fell.

 

Just a thought.

They lied to the people, they continue to lie to themselves, and consecutive British governments have lied to the British population about their real intent. Lies within lies within lies. Britain should never have been part of it.

 

I suspect that bigger wheels will quickly eclipse Brexit. Central Banks on the run and the USD in free fall.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Karl

[Chang]

I see Martin Schultz the President of the Euro Parliament wants us out as quickly as possible ... so it's 'don't go, don't go ... oh fuck off then!'  - they are an arrogant bunch of twats when it gets down to it.

 

Yes we have voted to leave the E.U. but have yet to actually leave and close the door behind us.

 

Herr Schultz may want to get us out as quickly as possible but the very nature of E.U. is that of a slow moving beast. Things can only move as quickly as the rules and regulations allow us to move.

 

What is important now is that the U.K. Government does all in its power to make the exit as favourable to britain as possible. The trouble with that is that Dodgy Dave Cameron is a dead man walking and Corbyn faces a no confidence motion by Labour. This is a moment of great opportunity for those seeking to step up a rung or two on the ladder.

[Karl]

I wonder if that's the end for Hilary Clinton ? Knowing that it can be done and us being done by others is a great boost for any left field campaign. Obama's abortive intervention in the UK referendum might well be the key to Trumps victory.

[thelerner]

I don't think Hillary put much political capital into the whole Brexit thing.  Obama did a little, but even then it was never a big deal in the U.S.   Americans are by and large pretty ignorant and uncaring about foreign politics and by and large didn't have in a horse in the race.   

[Apech]

[Karl]

I don't think Hillary put much political capital into the whole Brexit thing.  Obama did a little, but even then it was never a big deal in the U.S.   Americans are by and large pretty ignorant and uncaring about foreign politics and by and large didn't have in a horse in the race.

 

We hadn't heard of the sub prime crisis.

[thelerner]

We hadn't heard of the sub prime crisis.

might be comparing potatoes and inert gases there.  Kinda different things. 

[Karl]

might be comparing potatoes and inert gases there.  Kinda different things.

 

I mean that though the US people aren't aware of Brexit now, then circumstances will make it a more prominent event. Like a tidal wave that begins across the world in a place few have heard of, eventually, when the wave hits the shores of the continent people quickly become aquainted with it origin.

[idquest]

Why all this noise? Can't understand. OK, some bureaucrats and even fewer politicians will lose their jobs and that's about it. So what? As for political noise - this is business as usual. Further disintegration of the Euro-union? Come on...

[Miffymog]

Why all this noise? Can't understand. OK, some bureaucrats and even fewer politicians will lose their jobs and that's about it. So what? As for political noise - this is business as usual. Further disintegration of the Euro-union? Come on...

 

I have to admit, the rational side of my mind does think, will this really signal the end of the EU? First, other countries actually have to call a referendum, then they have to vote to leave. These are two big steps.

 

But, there is now less financial stability in the EU with less money to go round the member states.

 

AND

 

as much as I didn't believe it would happen here it did!

[Karl]

Why all this noise? Can't understand. OK, some bureaucrats and even fewer politicians will lose their jobs and that's about it. So what? As for political noise - this is business as usual. Further disintegration of the Euro-union? Come on...

Political power is predicated on a degree of financial stability and peoples acceptance of the status quo. Britain leaving the EU creates big waves in both of those predicates. The EU was already tearing itself apart, but, until one piece actually splintered then it appeared a cohesive whole. It could have been Greece, or Ireland, but it was one of the big four and that will not go unnoticed. The EU may fracture a lot quicker than people assume, it might be a matter of months, or even weeks before another country fires up article 52.

[C T]

Political power is predicated on a degree of financial stability and peoples acceptance of the status quo. Britain leaving the EU creates big waves in both of those predicates. The EU was already tearing itself apart, but, until one piece actually splintered then it appeared a cohesive whole. It could have been Greece, or Ireland, but it was one of the big four and that will not go unnoticed. The EU may fracture a lot quicker than people assume, it might be a matter of months, or even weeks before another country fires up article 52.

I can see the big guns in China and the Mid East, perhaps even Japan, gleefully rubbing their hands in lieu of the prospect. For one thing, they are free of mass migration, and may even have 'helped' funnel the flow towards these shores. There you go, says them, your babies. Lol