Britain and the European Union

[gatito]

I agree with a lot of what you say there Karl, the Remain campaign was a disaster. I live in Cambridgeshire where many of the market towns voted over 70% to leave, mostly due to immigration and they do have valid issues which aren't being heard.

 

Yet this issue about taking back control is a complete illusion. All other European countries which are outside of the EU who want access to the single market have to accept most of the EU rules including about the free movement of people, yet they don't get any say in the making of those rules. The Tory party has already come out and stated that immigration won't go down. So what control exactly has been reclaimed? 

 

Great Britain has succeeded in removing the (principal) American accent from the European banqueting table...

 

The other cheerleader will also be brought to heel...

Edited June 26, 2016 by gatito

[Jetsun]

Great Britain has succeeded in removing the (principal) American accent from the European banqueting table...

 

The other cheerleader will also be brought to heel...

 

In that sense it may be a positive outcome for many European citizens, who are universally against things like TTIP and other issues that Britain was on the side of trying to implement onto the EU on behalf of American companies.

 

But for us it probably means Britain has opened itself up fully to the horrors of American multi-nationals, goodbye to the British countryside and clean environment, hello to hormone injected beef.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Jetsun

[Apech]

 

 

Christmas is coming, the geese are getting fat

Please do put a penny in the old man's hat

If you haven't got a penny, a ha'penny will do

If you haven't got a ha'penny, then God bless you...

 

 

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,

Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,

To the last syllable of recorded time;

And all our yesterdays have lighted fools

The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,

That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,

And then is heard no more. It is a tale

Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing.

[gatito]

In that sense it may be a positive outcome for many European citizens, who are universally against things like TTIP and other issues that Britain was on the side of trying to implement onto the EU on behalf of American companies.

 

But for us it probably means Britain has opened itself up fully to the horrors of American multi-nationals, goodbye to the British countryside and clean environment, hello to hormone injected beef.

 

Great Britain's always been the 51st State, however I think it's highly unlikely that you'll be importing American beef.

 

All that's really changed is that you've lost the right to vote against the European interests...

 

You'll get the chance to apply for full membership in a couple of decades (like the Turks...).

[gatito]

... until then, you're on the naughty step...

 

[Karl]

This is a roar from the retired old people who fantasise about a non globalised world which existed when they were children

 

Sounds ageist to me. If you sad that about blacks, gays or Muslims you would be called a race hating Nazi. Yet because it's just 'old people' you feel you are perfectly within your rights to act like the bigots you despise. Nice eh ?

 

It is the EUrophiles and little Londoners that aren't waking up to the global changes that have occured. The elite tried to frighten us with pension threats, security risks, world wars and financial catastrophe if we dared to leave the nest. Well, we weren't frightened, us older generation are made of tougher stuff. We relish the wider world which we were forced to abandon when we became introverted and inward looking.

 

You got your vote, we all made our decisions, it's a democracy. Suck it up.

[gatito]

You got your vote, we all made our decisions, it's a democracy. Suck it up.

 

Suckers...

 

[Karl]

I agree with a lot of what you say there Karl, the Remain campaign was a disaster. I live in Cambridgeshire where many of the market towns voted over 70% to leave, mostly due to immigration and they do have valid issues which aren't being heard.

 

Yet this issue about taking back control is a complete illusion. All other European countries which are outside of the EU who want access to the single market have to accept most of the EU rules including about the free movement of people, yet they don't get any say in the making of those rules. The Tory party has already come out and stated that immigration won't go down. So what control exactly has been reclaimed?

 

You aren't listening, you are re-hashing the arguments we already had, we made our decision. This is about the people taking back control in the only peaceful way they can make the argument. You think this is about these single issues because that's been the way politics have worked for so long-just fix this, or make a law about that-this is about repealing that kind of politics completely. It doesn't work anymore-the jig is up. I'm sure many don't know what the problem is, or what the answer might be, but they know something isn't working for them and that successive parties have promised to fix it-we got tired waiting.

[gatito]

Leaving present for Karl and Chang: -

 

Edited June 26, 2016 by gatito

[Karl]

, 

I wouldn't be surprised if Boris Johnson betrays your revolution, this guy is a full on European having grown up in an International school in Brussels and only went over to the leave side at the last minute, he has no heart or will in really cutting off cleanly from the EU

Again, you don't get it. This isn't about who runs the Tory party, or who is PM. Boris is a non-entity in regard to the vote. People understood what they were voting for, but they all have varied ideas about the cause of the issues. Some say immigration, others the EU cost, regulation or the politicians. It isn't going away. It can't be brushed under the carpet anymore. There is a class divide and it's no good pretending it isn't there. If Boris or anyone else do not provide speedy answers and visible change then they will be removed.

[Jetsun]

You aren't listening, you are re-hashing the arguments we already had, we made our decision. This is about the people taking back control in the only peaceful way they can make the argument. You think this is about these single issues because that's been the way politics have worked for so long-just fix this, or make a law about that-this is about repealing that kind of politics completely. It doesn't work anymore-the jig is up. I'm sure many don't know what the problem is, or what the answer might be, but they know something isn't working for them and that successive parties have promised to fix it-we got tired waiting.

You still haven't explained what control you hope to gain back?

 

The world has changed, Britain has signed up to international agreements which dictate many areas of life and as already explained we will still have to abide by EU rules if we want access to the single market, without which we are ruined economically .

 

Like I said it is a fantasy in the modern globalised world that we can go back to the days old where we decide everything. It's a big illusion even if we have voted out.

 

And it is a legitimate area of debate to discuss the outlook and intentions of old retired people due to their influence on the leave result, a result they don't have to live with or try to earn a living in for very long.

 

Not that it is exclusively an old young divide, but that divide is one of many issues we now face.

[Jetsun]

Again, you don't get it. This isn't about who runs the Tory party, or who is PM. Boris is a non-entity in regard to the vote. People understood what they were voting for, but they all have varied ideas about the cause of the issues. Some say immigration, others the EU cost, regulation or the politicians. It isn't going away. It can't be brushed under the carpet anymore. There is a class divide and it's no good pretending it isn't there. If Boris or anyone else do not provide speedy answers and visible change then they will be removed.

Well he is the one who is supposed to invoke article 50 now Cameron has passed that over to him, and there are many now suggesting that he may find a way out of actually doing it, as legally he doesn't have to. Perhaps that is remain camp grasping at straws but as Boris isnt a true Brexiter you never know, he may find a way to pull the plug.

[Apech]

There is no plan - they didn't expect to win.  That's why Boris looks pale and shocked.

[rex]

Brefugees!

We're living in 'interesting times'!

[Jetsun]

It was meant to be a move by the right wing of the Conservative party to blackmail the EU into more concessions and a better deal, they never meant to actually win and leave. They have been talking about this for years so if they really wanted to leave they would have a plan, which they don't . It was a massive gamble which has spectacularly backfired.

[Apech]

It was meant to be a move by the right wing of the Conservative party to blackmail the EU into more concessions and a better deal, they never meant to actually win and leave. They have been talking about this for years so if they really wanted to leave they would have a plan, which they don't . It was a massive gamble which has spectacularly backfired.

 

Correct.

[Karl]

You still haven't explained what control you hope to gain back?

The world has changed, Britain has signed up to international agreements which dictate many areas of life and as already explained we will still have to abide by EU rules if we want access to the single market, without which we are ruined economically .

Like I said it is a fantasy in the modern globalised world that we can go back to the days old where we decide everything. It's a big illusion even if we have voted out.

And it is a legitimate area of debate to discuss the outlook and intentions of old retired people due to their influence on the leave result, a result they don't have to live with or try to earn a living in for very long.

Not that it is exclusively an old young divide, but that divide is one of many issues we now face.

What's this, another referendum re-run. You know exactly what I want, I've made it plain enough. Others may not know precisely what they want, but they have had enough with what they don't. They aren't interested in another Tory/Labour government. They don't want EU unelected bureaucrats. Politicians have fucked up their lives to the point that there isn't anything left to fuck up.

 

Trade is trade, it doesn't require a political union, or even a political dimension. We already comply with all the EU regulations and if they imposed a tarriff then so would we. As they buy more from us, then this would harm them in the long run, so, realistically we will have full access to the single market without any Tarriffs.

 

I don't know what you mean by 'decide on everything' ? We do decide on everything. Trade is about mutual gain. You buy a car from me with your wine and cheese. We decide on whether it's a good deal and how much wine and cheese the car is valued at by negotiation. You and I are transacting like this many times a day. We decide, because only we can.

 

Arent we all just people trying to live our lives the best we can ? Why are you blaming one group ? That they 'won't have to live very long' is equal to 'they are blacks, they don't need the same things white need'. It isn't a legitimate argument unless you are in favour of the Nazi party which said the same thing about the Jews as you are saying for old people. It's pretty disgusting.

[Jetsun]

What's this, another referendum re-run. You know exactly what I want, I've made it plain enough. Others may not know precisely what they want, but they have had enough with what they don't. They aren't interested in another Tory/Labour government. They don't want EU unelected bureaucrats. Politicians have fucked up their lives to the point that there isn't anything left to fuck up.

 

Trade is trade, it doesn't require a political union, or even a political dimension. We already comply with all the EU regulations and if they imposed a tarriff then so would we. As they buy more from us, then this would harm them in the long run, so, realistically we will have full access to the single market without any Tarriffs.

 

I don't know what you mean by 'decide on everything' ? We do decide on everything. Trade is about mutual gain. You buy a car from me with your wine and cheese. We decide on whether it's a good deal and how much wine and cheese the car is valued at by negotiation. You and I are transacting like this many times a day. We decide, because only we can.

 

Arent we all just people trying to live our lives the best we can ? Why are you blaming one group ? That they 'won't have to live very long' is equal to 'they are blacks, they don't need the same things white need'. It isn't a legitimate argument unless you are in favour of the Nazi party which said the same thing about the Jews as you are saying for old people. It's pretty disgusting.

Trying to compare my argument to the Nazis you are better than that Karl. You know fully well what I'm talking about, all the voting statistics show a big divide between old and young, between the retired and those just out trying to make their lives. The young have to live and work with this decision far longer than the old, this is just a fact. There is mounting resentment with young people which is also a fact, due to issues like increasing debt and inability to buy housing, you can try deflect it away as ageist or Nazi but it isn't going to go away, rather this decision of exit is going to exacerbate the issue even further.

 

But yeah that isn't the only divide, old/young, poor/rich, England/rest of Britain , so focus on only one of the areas (like the rich/poor divide which many people are pointing to as the only reason) is to not get the whole picture.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Jetsun

[Karl]

Trying to compare my argument to the Nazis you are better than that Karl. You know fully well what I'm talking about, all the voting statistics show a big divide between old and young, between the retired and those just out trying to make their lives. The young have to live and work with this decision far longer than the old, this is just a fact. There is mounting resentment with young people which is also a fact, due to issues like increasing debt and inability to buy housing, you can try deflect it away as ageist or Nazi but it isn't going to go away, rather this decision of exit is going to exacerbate the issue even further.

 

But yeah that isn't the only divide, old/young, poor/rich, England/rest of Britain , so focus on only one of the areas (like the rich/poor divide which many people are pointing to as the only reason) is to not get the whole picture.

What does it matter, it's a democracy, everyone gets one vote. If the vote had gone the other way then I wouldn't have blamed it on the young. We all got a vote and we are all entitled to decide the best outcome old, young, black or white. I'm trying to open your eyes to what you are saying. I was young when my parents voted on the EU, I didn't blame them. We are all, by degrees, old and young. That a young person believes they are 'entitled' because they are young is what is wrong with our society. As it is the workforce is filling up with 55+ and 65+ that are returning to work because many have been paying out for their children and coupled with depleted pensions and savings due to low interest rates- supposedly to help the young afford homes. Ironically of course, the 65+ group have been prevented from automatic retirement by EU law.

 

Of course there is mounting resentment, but the young directing it at the old are being sold a dummy. The old will prosper less out of the referendum result than the young. We have given you a chance, one day you might realise it. You are blaming a group for voting to leave the EU, when your real beef is high house costs, crappy jobs, high prices, debt and low wages. The EU hasn't helped in any way to make things better, it has increased prices, destroyed jobs, raised taxes and made starter jobs difficult to come by and at very low pay. House prices have increased because of high demand due to immigration and low interest rates.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Karl

[silent thunder]

This is a roar from the retired old people who fantasise about a non globalised world which existed when they were children 

Ah yes, the hearken back to the 'good ole days', with their 'vote of control!'  It plays more like a political tantrum thrown by the exiting generation, projected from the collective illusion of rose colored memory...

 

When exactly were the 'good ole days'?  Oh yea, when Great Britain was the foreign power, dictating policy across 2/3 of the world, it's 'colonial assets'. 

 

edit to add:  Former British Colonies marveling that you can get Britain to leave with a vote.

Edited June 26, 2016 by silent thunder

[Karl]

Ah yes, the hearken back to the 'good ole days', with their 'vote of control!'  It plays more like a political tantrum thrown by the exiting generation, projected from the collective illusion of rose colored memory...

 

When exactly were the 'good ole days'?  Oh yea, when Great Britain was the foreign power, dictating policy across 2/3 of the world, it's 'colonial assets'.

 

There is no one left from that era dude. We grew up in the horrors of the 60s/70s which I assure you were anything but good. We really want to take back control for ourselves, not to determine your futures, or dictate what your future should be. We do not mean 'take back control' as meaning to go back in history, we are talking about the future way forward. No more diktats, no more nanny state, no more idiotic regulations and laws. Let everyone have an opportunity without the blanket of authoritarianism that is smothering us. We aren't 'rose tinted' in any sense, we are looking to a brave new world, somewhere we haven't been.

[Chang]

Leaving present for Karl and Chang: -

 

 

Thank you gatito. If I had any doubts regarding my views and actions then you have laid them to rest.

[Karl]

Thank you gatito. If I had any doubts regarding my views and actions then you have laid them to rest.

Yep, because, as we know from the media, politicians and Facebook bubble: leavers are backward looking, old, thick, bigoted, uneducated morons who don't know any better and should never have been allowed a vote. Remainers are of course highly educated, globally minded enlightened who should decide what is in the best interests of those too stupid to understand what they were doing.

 

Maybe we put our cross in the wrong place eh Chang ? I'm sure I saw some leavers holding the pencils upside down.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Karl

[Jetsun]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV9UWpT70is

[Karl]

As Bloomberg reports… Britain’s 15 wealthiest citizens had $5.5 billion erased from their collective fortune Friday after the country voted to leave the European Union. Britain’s richest person, Gerald Grosvenor, led the decline with a loss of $1 billion, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index. He was followed by Topshop owner Philip Green, fellow land baron Charles Cadogan and Bruno Schroder, majority shareholder of money manager Schroders Plc.

 

* * *

 

So – to summarize – the two main parties who were pushing for Britain to stay in The EU (The wealthy elite and The EU itself) are the biggest losers of the British vote for self-determination.