Britain and the European Union

[Chang]

Turkish membership of the E.U is driven largely by German influence. There has long been a "special relationship" between Germany and the Turks and it is very much German dominance of the E.U. that is pushing for their membership.

 

What is to be gained by drawing Turkey into the fold is completely beyond me. It will alianate all of the Balkan E.U. members and will allow free entry to Europe to seventy five million Muslims. Turkish membership is beyond both belief and contempt.

 

As regards the Prime Minister - David Cameron - he is fast becoming a bad charicature of a Posh Boy Tory who has nothing but contempt for the British people. Whatever the result of the referendum we are due some fun and games within the Tory Party as it reboots itself for the future.

[Karl]

Contempt is right.

[Jetsun]

I got my voting card today, still don't know which way I will vote, just about every person who talks or writes about it in the press gets so hysterical and dramatic that it's almost impossible to get any decent reliable information about it. It's basically like the Russian tactic of disinformation where you flood all media with so much noise and contradiction that nobody knows what's going on or who is reliable.

[Jetsun]

In the Guardian newspaper today they started an article on the vote by saying that Germany wants Britain to stay because they are often closely allied on a lot of key issues, then later on in the same article say that the French want us to stay as a counter weight to German influence, you can't have it both ways!

[Apech]

I got my voting card today, still don't know which way I will vote, just about every person who talks or writes about it in the press gets so hysterical and dramatic that it's almost impossible to get any decent reliable information about it. It's basically like the Russian tactic of disinformation where you flood all media with so much noise and contradiction that nobody knows what's going on or who is reliable.

 

 

I agree that the whole thing is being both very badly handled and also deliberately confusing.  I saw on Sky News this morning Cameron addressing a group of EasyJet workers at Luton Airport - presumably as a pseudo public address to workers whose employment relies on international transport and so carrying the suggestion that work, wealth and employment rely on being part of the EU and so on.  A carefully managed message I suppose.

 

What the debate lacks as far as I'm concerned is realistic and properly developed plans for the future either inside or outside the EU.  I don't want political union but I do want a strong UK economy which must it seems to me be largely dependent on trade and services with Europe.  I am completely unconvinced by the arguments of 'Leave' that the UK will be undamaged by Brexit - it's possible that there may be a long term viable plan going into 25/30 years int he future but the immediate 5 - 10 years impact will be harmful as far as I can see.  

 

On immigration I have mixed feelings.  Being a liberal lefty I dislike the hate and fear the other mentality that has crept in - but I do accept that uncontrolled mass immigration is hugely problematical.  The total mismanagement of the Syrian issue is worrying.  And I put this down to our politically correct confusion. eg. it's somehow racist to see this as a problem - so just ignore it or guilt trip over it.  The best example is of Merkel trying to wash away memories of the Holocaust by allowing uncontrolled entry - just daft.

 

I'm not falling for the romantic emotional appeal for a return to the 1950's of the likes of Peter Hitchens and to a certain extent Farage.  And when I look at the other members of the Leave group, Gove, IDS, Boris ... I just know there isn't a single person there I could trust or follow.  Just a bunch of opportunists and/or right wing loonies as far as I can see.

 

The relative silence of the Labour party is something of an indictment - but then much as like Corbyn as a fellow, his views are hopelessly outdated and I think he is compromised by his long history as an activist - some of which I agree with and some I don't.

 

So in the end for reasons partly informed by pure self interest (I live in Europe but pay tax in UK under the Dual Tax Agreement) I will vote Remain.  And just to piss off Karl and Chang I might mention that if I count in my parents, siblings, daughters and their respective partners - that's 13 Remain voters - in the bag!  

[Karl]

I got my voting card today, still don't know which way I will vote, just about every person who talks or writes about it in the press gets so hysterical and dramatic that it's almost impossible to get any decent reliable information about it. It's basically like the Russian tactic of disinformation where you flood all media with so much noise and contradiction that nobody knows what's going on or who is reliable.

 

Actually its pretty simple. Put aside all the pro and con arguments about economics and immigration. Essentially it's a question of freedom. There are always risks in staying or leaving, but essentially the choice is more or less Liberty. Reality in politics is never as dramatic as it is portrayed. By staying in we won't suddenly topple into an abyss on the 23rd if we vote to stay, neither will we find ourselves in the middle of a vast unknown if we leave.

 

Really the Government is making itself into something far more than it really is and less than it is: the fact is that it just isn't required to make 'trade deals'. Individuals and companies can trade, and do trade unilaterally with individuals and companies in other countries, the problem is that as members of the EU we are forced to abide by certain trading rules and regulations which makes this more expensive and difficult-but not impossible. So, outside the EU we would find it easier to trade as UK PLC, but, of course the EU wants to try and prevent any of the outside trade entering its borders. It's protectionism for its members and for that we pay a lot of money.

 

Government also have got into pretending that every bit of workers rights and directives can only be made by the EU. Even Labour, who is supposed to be the standing opposition, is acting as if it's hands were ties, that if it managed to win an election and we were no longer in the EU then it would have to stand around looking stupid, unable to institute any laws or manage to form strategic alliances with countries outside the EU. That if we couldn't get a 'trade deal' then we couldn't ever trade with any countries. Yet, without trade deals we are happily trading with the USA-despite Obamas 'back of the Q' scare tactics, we don't actually need the politicians to do anything at all because we can do it ourselves, but it's just easier if we can tear down the trade barriers.

 

 

So, it's more freedom outside the EU with a bit of jockeying if we want a trade deal with the EU-but there actually isn't a need for one. Businesses have always traded on the continent and will continue doing so. We can decide who comes in to the country and get back to making our own laws. On balance it will be cheaper to be out as we pay for a lot of EU waste and whoever is in power can decide where tax is spent. We get to elect our own completely seperate Government democratically.

 

Inside the EU we continue with the trading relationship we currently have, we can't unilaterally make trade deals with other countries, but that doesn't stop us trading with them either. The likelihood is we will be drawn into the Euro if it doesn't collapse. More importantly we continue not to be able to elect the Government. Our own Government is more like a city council which we do elect, but we have no power over the EUs seven unelected presidential heads or their workings. We have a less democratic system.

 

The UK Government has no idea what the future will be in or out and neither does anyone else. We might be better or worse off, but no amount of experts and high sounding institutions has a clue. They have consistently failed to make the correct forecasts or predictions throughout the years. They didn't see either of the two recent crashes, they took us into the disaster of the ERM, they forecast disaster if we didn't adopt the euro, they couldn't even correctly predict the current defecit a few months, never mind years ahead.

 

Put simply, if these people were so great at predicting the financial future then they wouldn't waste their time being economists and financial gurus. Instead they would just play the markets and make trillions from their abilities to forecast. As none of them are putting their money where their mouths are, then you can be reliably certain that they just don't know and therefore disregard anything they say.

[Karl]

I agree that the whole thing is being both very badly handled and also deliberately confusing.  I saw on Sky News this morning Cameron addressing a group of EasyJet workers at Luton Airport - presumably as a pseudo public address to workers whose employment relies on international transport and so carrying the suggestion that work, wealth and employment rely on being part of the EU and so on.  A carefully managed message I suppose.

 

What the debate lacks as far as I'm concerned is realistic and properly developed plans for the future either inside or outside the EU.  I don't want political union but I do want a strong UK economy which must it seems to me be largely dependent on trade and services with Europe.  I am completely unconvinced by the arguments of 'Leave' that the UK will be undamaged by Brexit - it's possible that there may be a long term viable plan going into 25/30 years int he future but the immediate 5 - 10 years impact will be harmful as far as I can see.  

 

On immigration I have mixed feelings.  Being a liberal lefty I dislike the hate and fear the other mentality that has crept in - but I do accept that uncontrolled mass immigration is hugely problematical.  The total mismanagement of the Syrian issue is worrying.  And I put this down to our politically correct confusion. eg. it's somehow racist to see this as a problem - so just ignore it or guilt trip over it.  The best example is of Merkel trying to wash away memories of the Holocaust by allowing uncontrolled entry - just daft.

 

I'm not falling for the romantic emotional appeal for a return to the 1950's of the likes of Peter Hitchens and to a certain extent Farage.  And when I look at the other members of the Leave group, Gove, IDS, Boris ... I just know there isn't a single person there I could trust or follow.  Just a bunch of opportunists and/or right wing loonies as far as I can see.

 

The relative silence of the Labour party is something of an indictment - but then much as like Corbyn as a fellow, his views are hopelessly outdated and I think he is compromised by his long history as an activist - some of which I agree with and some I don't.

 

So in the end for reasons partly informed by pure self interest (I live in Europe but pay tax in UK under the Dual Tax Agreement) I will vote Remain.  And just to piss off Karl and Chang I might mention that if I count in my parents, siblings, daughters and their respective partners - that's 13 Remain voters - in the bag!  

 

The problem is that it is the EU that is stuck in the 50s and the rest of the world has sprinted past it. It was set up, in trade terms as a customs zone where every country paid a chunk of cash according to their wealth in order that it could restrict external competition. That was a crap idea at the time, but now it's completely ridiculous because of the growth outside the euro zone it is getting left further and further behind. It's an analogue ideology in a digital age. It's like sticking to steam engines.

 

In terms of your tax, remember that the EU can decide what you should pay and, up to now they have always been slightly guided by our threat to leave or veto, but that threat will vanish after the 23rd. Cameron already gave up an important veto for no advantage, then, if we vote to stay in, they have us by the short and curlies.

 

My brother is voting to stay in. He works in a farming area. His reason was purely down to the EU farming subsidy, which, he was concerned woukd be removed by Cameron. I reminded him that Cameron wasn't voting to leave and, should we leave and Vameron withdraw those subsidies, then he could get rid of Cameron in 3 years. However, if we vote to stay, well, the subsidy is EU controlled and big agricultural countries like Turkey, France, Ukraine, Yugoslavia might well decide Britain was getting too much of a deal considering the strength of its financial hub. It might suggest we can keep our banks but lose the farm subsidy in the same way we lost fishing rights under the CFP.

 

Remember that nothing is ever static. You have a good deal now, but what about in 5 years time ?

[Apech]

@Karl

 

Yes I have a good deal now.  And my whole point is that in the absence of a convincing forward plan by either side I will vote to keep the good deal I have within the status quo.  Neither you no or I know what will be happening in 5 years time.

 

P.S. I find your idea that this is about 'liberty' remarkably naive.  There will be no  more or less liberty either way.

[Karl]

@Karl

 

Yes I have a good deal now. And my whole point is that in the absence of a convincing forward plan by either side I will vote to keep the good deal I have within the status quo. Neither you no or I know what will be happening in 5 years time.

 

P.S. I find your idea that this is about 'liberty' remarkably naive. There will be no more or less liberty either way.

 

Of course there will be greater Liberty because a democratic sovereign state is far closer to the individual than the EU unelected federation. You can't tell what will happen anywhere, but one thing is certain, when you have an unelected bureaucracy it is far less tolerant of individuality and is open to hijack by any kind of extremism to abuse. Me old dad told me years ago-he was a committed socialist-that he clearly saw a fascist future for the EU and that has become reality. It is a corporate and bureaucratic wet dream with an unelected leadership. It is losing its outward trading significance and introverting. There is talk of ending cash, it already has NIRP and cash withdrawal limits.

 

You vote Britain in and if you wanted a bolt hole if things turn nasty it won't be as easy to find a place to run to. The EU is not only stagnant, but it's economy is failing. It has high unemployment and will face even greater waves of low skilled migrant immigration from cultures alien to western values. Barbed wire fences are going up. Extremist parties are on the rise.

 

The treatment of Greece should make it clear what kind of a thing the EU is. It has become impossible for them to escape. It's likely that Britain will be asked to pay greater amounts into a ailing basket case without any hope of ducking out. Those that sit in the EU gravy train will sip champagne, eat caviar and drive around in chauffeur driven luxury whilst those on the outside work like slaves.

 

These are the facts as they stand right now. We can't know if the EU or Britain will get worse or better, but we can see that European productivity and living standards are in decline. We can see the number of migrants that are flooding in each year and the EU seems unlikely to prevent it. NIRP is a reality, limited cash withdrawals are a reality and the removal of large denomination notes is a reality. Fences have gone up, extremist parties are on the rise and the destruction of Greece is headline news. None of that can be denied.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Karl

[Chang]

@Karl

 

Yes I have a good deal now.  And my whole point is that in the absence of a convincing forward plan by either side I will vote to keep the good deal I have within the status quo.  Neither you no or I know what will be happening in 5 years time.

 

P.S. I find your idea that this is about 'liberty' remarkably naive.  There will be no  more or less liberty either way.

 

The term "naive is appropriate to those who wish to remain within the E.U. and maintaining the status quo leaves much to be desired when considering the ailing European Super State.

 

I will admit that some states have benefitted and continue to benefit from E.U. membership but the U.K. is most certainly not one of them. The whole shebang is soft, weak and increasingly pathetic. It is crumbling from within and collapsing from without. The "In" gang resemble nothing so much as people grasping the handrails on the deck of the Titanic as it slips beneath the rails, too afraid to abandon ship for fear of getting wet.

[Apech]

@Karl,

 

That just reads like a list of assertions without any evidence.  Nation states do not automatically ensure individual liberty.  Just look at history.  Do I need to give examples?

 

What is eroding individual liberty both in fact and as an idea is the inter-sectionalist left in the guise of feminism, anti-racism, LBTQ groups and so on.  They are shutting down free speech and debate in our universities and in the media.  This effect is worse in the UK and the USA.  It does not seem to exist in the same way in European public life.  So EU membership may help to counteract this hijack of the progressive liberal/left agenda.  I realise we are not in the same camp on this - but I think we both share the desire for individual liberties and rule of law  i.e. classical liberal values.  Perhaps, I'm not sure, but if the Brexit alternative was to become the 51st state under the US constitution I might vote for that - provided I could be certain that the principles of individual freedom would be preserved.

[Apech]

The term "naive is appropriate to those who wish to remain within the E.U. and maintaining the status quo leaves much to be desired when considering the ailing European Super State.

 

I will admit that some states have benefitted and continue to benefit from E.U. membership but the U.K. is most certainly not one of them. The whole shebang is soft, weak and increasingly pathetic. It is crumbling from within and collapsing from without. The "In" gang resemble nothing so much as people grasping the handrails on the deck of the Titanic as it slips beneath the rails, too afraid to abandon ship for fear of getting wet.

 

As far as I can see only France and Germany (and possibly the Netherlands and of course Belgium) have really benefited from the EU so far.  I'm not blinkered about the defects.  I've seen what joining the Eurozone did to Portugal at first hand.  Small countries in the EU have major problems - even if they tow the line.  But as I repeatedly keep saying what convinces me least is the idea of sailing off in HMS Victory with Boris Johnson at the wheel waving the Union Jack somewhere into the mid-Atlantic.

[Karl]

@Karl,

 

That just reads like a list of assertions without any evidence.  Nation states do not automatically ensure individual liberty.  Just look at history.  Do I need to give examples?

 

What is eroding individual liberty both in fact and as an idea is the inter-sectionalist left in the guise of feminism, anti-racism, LBTQ groups and so on.  They are shutting down free speech and debate in our universities and in the media.  This effect is worse in the UK and the USA.  It does not seem to exist in the same way in European public life.  So EU membership may help to counteract this hijack of the progressive liberal/left agenda.  I realise we are not in the same camp on this - but I think we both share the desire for individual liberties and rule of law  i.e. classical liberal values.  Perhaps, I'm not sure, but if the Brexit alternative was to become the 51st state under the US constitution I might vote for that - provided I could be certain that the principles of individual freedom would be preserved.

 

They aren't assertions, they are facts. What isn't fact is the remain campaigns ludicrous assertion that we risk WW3, a crash of the pound, mass unemployment, hyper inflation and total isolation.

 

What is fact is that we can't vote out the unelected EU bureaucracy and countries have lost their sovereignty to a supranational corporocracy. Whilst it might not be real freedom to vote in a bi-party political system in a sovereign state, it is still possible to kick out a poor Government and its still possible that a rise of a new party can challenge the leaders. That must be closer to Liberty than a European superstate run by DAVOS men and trough dipping failed bureaucrats.

 

I wouldn't vote for us the be the 51st state either, I think we have a lot more potential. We have come a long way since the terrors of the socialist 70s. We have junked subsidised business and national unionisation. We have some fantastic companies over here. Whilst we are land locked in a stagnant EU we cannot spread our commercial wings because it's easier just to lie in the EU bed with the curtains closed. It's this malaise that really stops the igniting of entrepreneurial rocket boosters. The heavy hand of the EU rests on everything and encourages a catatonic apathy.

 

The US is further down the road to serfdom than Britain. Both Europe and the US are beginning to take on the appearance of 70s Britain. We don't want to fall into that narcoleptic state again. We need to claw our way into the light and we have a narrow window in which we might do it, but if we vote in, that's gone.

[Apech]

Facts?

[Karl]

As far as I can see only France and Germany (and possibly the Netherlands and of course Belgium) have really benefited from the EU so far.  I'm not blinkered about the defects.  I've seen what joining the Eurozone did to Portugal at first hand.  Small countries in the EU have major problems - even if they tow the line.  But as I repeatedly keep saying what convinces me least is the idea of sailing off in HMS Victory with Boris Johnson at the wheel waving the Union Jack somewhere into the mid-Atlantic.

 

Ignore Boris and the Tory in fighting. After the 23rd I think we will see a real crack develop in the Tory party. Labour are unelectable and the really passionate leavers are being suppressed in favour of the political mainstream suits. People like John Mills of JML are given little to no air time. All we get is Tory suits whilst the establishment wheel out their buddies and the big corporates. We already saw Serco (you know those guys who are looking to institute more private prisons in the UK on the lines of the US) and of course the NHS Simon Stevens an ex US private healthcare man.

[Karl]

Facts?

 

Are you denying the stagnation of the EU compared even with Britain (we even had to pay a big chunk of cash over this year because we are doing so well). Are you denying NIRP and calls to end cash in the EU (cash transactions in France and several other countries are now restricted and they are withdrawing the E500 note). Can you deny the mass immigration or the rise of the extremist parties. Can you deny the fences being put back up. Is it possible you missed what they are doing to Greece. I guess you understand how the EU parliament works, so you must know they are not elected-the key word they use is 'pooled sovereignty' which is the illusion that state have democratic sovereignty.

[Karl]

 

[Apech]

Are you denying the stagnation of the EU compared even with Britain (we even had to pay a big chunk of cash over this year because we are doing so well). Are you denying NIRP and calls to end cash in the EU (cash transactions in France and several other countries are now restricted and they are withdrawing the E500 note). Can you deny the mass immigration or the rise of the extremist parties. Can you deny the fences being put back up. Is it possible you missed what they are doing to Greece. I guess you understand how the EU parliament works, so you must know they are not elected-the key word they use is 'pooled sovereignty' which is the illusion that state have democratic sovereignty.

 

 

Ok. Facts.

 

1 )  Britain has avoided the stagnation of the Eurozone while being in the EU but not in the Eurozone.  The proposal is that we do not join the Eurozone - that's part of Cameron's deal.  We don't know if leaving the EU would be better.  It's all speculation beyond that point.

 

2 ) No-one knows the consequences of NIRP.  I have never seen a 500 Euro note and now I don't suppose I will.

 

3 ) I already commented on the mismanagement of the immigration crisis.  I agree it's a clusterfuck.

 

4  )  Yes extremist right wing parties are on the rise partly as a result of immigration.

 

5 ) Fences are being put back but then Britain as well as staying out of the Eurozone also were not part of Schengen - so our 'fences' were always up.

 

6 ) What they are doing to Greece?  Or perhaps what the Greeks have done to themselves?  I'm not a fan of austerity as a policy but the what are they supposed to do - pour in more billions without insisting on reforms?

 

7 ) MEPs are elected.  What exactly they do is another matter.  I don't like the power structure of the EU - it needs radical reform no doubt.

 

Those are facts.

[Karl]

Ok. Facts.

 

1 )  Britain has avoided the stagnation of the Eurozone while being in the EU but not in the Eurozone.  The proposal is that we do not join the Eurozone - that's part of Cameron's deal.  We don't know if leaving the EU would be better.  It's all speculation beyond that point.

 

2 ) No-one knows the consequences of NIRP.  I have never seen a 500 Euro note and now I don't suppose I will.

 

3 ) I already commented on the mismanagement of the immigration crisis.  I agree it's a clusterfuck.

 

4  )  Yes extremist right wing parties are on the rise partly as a result of immigration.

 

5 ) Fences are being put back but then Britain as well as staying out of the Eurozone also were not part of Schengen - so our 'fences' were always up.

 

6 ) What they are doing to Greece?  Or perhaps what the Greeks have done to themselves?  I'm not a fan of austerity as a policy but the what are they supposed to do - pour in more billions without insisting on reforms?

 

7 ) MEPs are elected.  What exactly they do is another matter.  I don't like the power structure of the EU - it needs radical reform no doubt.

 

Those are facts.

 

1) Except we will become a full member of the EU once we vote to stay in. What Cameron didn't announce was what he gave away. In exchange for 'not closer union for Britain' he gave away a veto on changes to the EU itself. We have lost the power of further negotiation because Cameron either never had any intention of us leaving the EU (hence his overheard comment to Merkel that after the referendum he will dock the UK into the EU), or he is such a useless negotiator that he fails to understand the element of time. Hence, if the EU changes dramatically, then Britain will be forced to make changes in order to continue trading. In effect, a veto on ever closer union is like a man who needs a car, waving a piece of paper in front of the dealer saying he doesn't 'have' to buy a car.

 

2) the effects of NIRP are widely understood by any economist, the exact sequence of consequences are less predictable but the outcome remains the same. If you understand time preference-that people prefer a commodity today than wait until tomorrow then this forward time preference has a value. The result is the destruction of capital formation through saving. Capital formation is the primary necessity for production. It is the driver of productive wealth creation. Break that link- which NIRP does and you have too many people chasing too many goods/assets and the price of goods increases rapidly and the value of the currency collapses.

 

3) OK

 

4) Right and left extremism are on the rise.

 

5) I was pointing out that Schengen is idealism. The reality is that these countries don't work together with open borders. As this is a key plank of the EU along with its failing currency and rise of extremism is the internal destruction of the EU. It's slowly pulling apart and, as it does, the bureaucrats and vested interests will plough ever increasing amounts of tax payer money trying to save their dream. I don't want Britain to be part of that inevitable collapse, or the long drawn out economic and social destruction which will precede it. Indeed there was some role play thing on newsnight where the guy playing the EU made it dead clear that they had no intention of giving Brotain a deal, because that would set a precedent for every other country.

 

6) Greece is a symptom of 5) it will herald more trouble on successive weak southern/Balkan economies. Greece shouldn't never have joined, as we shouldn't have joined, however, at least we are in a strong position to depart, poor old Greece is trapped.

 

7) MEPs are representatives of each country, they can speak and vote, but they have little power to speak of. This is how the EU was set up. It was designed not to be transparent or to be tampered with by the people. It is to give the illusion of sovereignty but is entirely a top down and anti democratic. This was to prevent any state ( meaning Germany or France) getting its hands on the power structure. Unfortunately it's grown into a vile monster and it won't be shut down or changed until it collapses under its own weight.

[Apech]

I think both Schengen and the Eurozone are ideas that cannot possibly work without federal union.  As such they should have been implemented.  And they wouldn't have been except for the deceitful union by stealth policy which the ideologues had introduced.  But that has been kicked in the head by the failed Lisbon Treaty.

 

Cameron certainly never meant for us to leave Europe no more than he thought Scotland would leave the Union - both referenda are products of his spineless 'anything that keeps me in power' way of thinking.  But consider this - your future leaders Osbourne or Boris are just from the same privilege club - with the same attitudes derived from 'we are born to rule'.  Only the English would fall for such utter tripe.

[Brian]

I think both Schengen and the Eurozone are ideas that cannot possibly work without federal union.  As such they should have been implemented.  And they wouldn't have been except for the deceitful union by stealth policy which the ideologues had introduced.  But that has been kicked in the head by the failed Lisbon Treaty.

 

Cameron certainly never meant for us to leave Europe no more than he thought Scotland would leave the Union - both referenda are products of his spineless 'anything that keeps me in power' way of thinking.  But consider this - your future leaders Osbourne or Boris are just from the same privilege club - with the same attitudes derived from 'we are born to rule'.  Only the English would fall for such utter tripe.

Tripe seems globally desirable, unfortunately.

[Karl]

I think both Schengen and the Eurozone are ideas that cannot possibly work without federal union.  As such they should have been implemented.  And they wouldn't have been except for the deceitful union by stealth policy which the ideologues had introduced.  But that has been kicked in the head by the failed Lisbon Treaty.

 

Cameron certainly never meant for us to leave Europe no more than he thought Scotland would leave the Union - both referenda are products of his spineless 'anything that keeps me in power' way of thinking.  But consider this - your future leaders Osbourne or Boris are just from the same privilege club - with the same attitudes derived from 'we are born to rule'.  Only the English would fall for such utter tripe.

 

Whoever gets in they are shit, but at least we can vote them out in order to get another lot of shits in. However, if we have voted to leave it will concentrate their minds in a way that stops them being quite as cavalier.

 

Did you watch last nights newsnight ? There was a woman from Norway who represents people who want to leave the single market completely. They were also told if they didn't vote to join the EU all sorts of terrible things would happen, the elites spun up the fear machine to predict currency collapse, economic destruction, higher prices etc, but instead of all that they prospered. The Government forced them to adopt the single market and have been trying for 15 years to join the union, but now, with the terrible state of the EU, many are now looking to reject the EU completely including the single market. So, even though we always hear that 'the Norway model means accepting....etc', in fact Norway want to get shot of all of it.

[Apech]

Whoever gets in they are shit, but at least we can vote them out in order to get another lot of shits in. However, if we have voted to leave it will concentrate their minds in a way that stops them being quite as cavalier. Did you watch last nights newsnight ? There was a woman from Norway who represents people who want to leave the single market completely. They were also told if they didn't vote to join the EU all sorts of terrible things would happen, the elites spun up the fear machine to predict currency collapse, economic destruction, higher prices etc, but instead of all that they prospered. The Government forced them to adopt the single market and have been trying for 15 years to join the union, but now, with the terrible state of the EU, many are now looking to reject the EU completely including the single market. So, even though we always hear that 'the Norway model means accepting....etc', in fact Norway want to get shot of all of it.

 

 

No I can't get Newsnight where I am unless someone Youtubes it.  But I can imagine how the Norwegians feel about the EU.  I also think that possibly if we had never joined the Common Market I might feel differently about the whole thing.  Mainly because we would have had several decades to work out how to survive and prosper outside it.  Instead we have had 43 years inside the club.  I hate to think how much its going to cost just to disentangle ourselves.  Not that this is strong argument but all the same it is a factor.

 

I'm all for Liberty and all that.  But I still think you are dreaming if you think that anything like that is on the table.  The nation state was born, maybe, in the 18th Century and reached its zenith in the late 19th - early 20th - since then globalism has been giving it a slow death.  We don't talk much about the NWO these days but its still very much on the agenda.  Soon (relatively) we will be talking about world government and not just Europe.

[Karl]

No I can't get Newsnight where I am unless someone Youtubes it.  But I can imagine how the Norwegians feel about the EU.  I also think that possibly if we had never joined the Common Market I might feel differently about the whole thing.  Mainly because we would have had several decades to work out how to survive and prosper outside it.  Instead we have had 43 years inside the club.  I hate to think how much its going to cost just to disentangle ourselves.  Not that this is strong argument but all the same it is a factor.

 

I'm all for Liberty and all that.  But I still think you are dreaming if you think that anything like that is on the table.  The nation state was born, maybe, in the 18th Century and reached its zenith in the late 19th - early 20th - since then globalism has been giving it a slow death.  We don't talk much about the NWO these days but its still very much on the agenda.  Soon (relatively) we will be talking about world government and not just Europe.

 

 

 

We also already prosper outside the EU. This is what I'm saying. Luckily we never lost the pound, we have our own central bank and and an immensely powerful financial sector. Splitting from the single market isn't a calamitous change, the trading will carry on regardless of what the political elite want to do. Eventually it will be worked out in terms of a deal, but we don't need any deal to continue trading and any subsequent trade deal (if we decide to have one).

 

British services and products are world beating. Globalism isn't something to be feared, it's a necessity. We need to accept it and stop this ridiculous introverted small minded protectionism in a dying customs union. World Government gets closer with a federal EU, but, as we are seeing, it plainly is unworkable. Just as the USSR and China failed because people need freedom to thrive and Governments need thriving people so they can become parasites. An unproductive, unhealthy host is lean pickings for the power seeker.

 

As Britain already complies with all the EU regulations and all the financial and trading networks set up and operating I don't think it would take much to untangle Britain at all. Those that are worrying about 'untangling' are likely those who are benefitting from the EU at other's expense. People always start trying to prove they are vital when redundancies beckon-particularly in the hierachy of layered protection the has expanded in any bureaucracy. They will make a massive fuss and the Government itself is unhappy about trimming itself in any way so it makes a big fuss about the difficulty and expense involved. Think of all the little favours and leverage that are involved in civil service positions. Lots of privileges and perks which the civil service will want to find new niches for to prevent any bad blood.

[Apech]

55 - 60% remain

45 - 40% leave

 

... care to wager?