Britain and the European Union

[Karl]

55 - 60% remain

45 - 40% leave

 

... care to wager?

 

I was convinced at the start that it would be remain 70/30- 60/40 and I haven't really changed my view. However I'm hoping, if it looks like the polls predicts a big win for remain, then it might make the less interested voters stay at home. Certainly all the leavers are charged up to vote out and that might mean it's closer. I don't put any faith in polls. I will keep handing out leaflets and explaining my view point to anyone prepared to listen. When it's all over on the 23rd I will cast my vote and have a cold beer. On the 24th we begin all over again :-) either to prepare the next referendum or to make sure the greasy piggy doesn't find it easy to wriggle his fat pink body out of the agreement. Pol pot year one as we used to say in sales :-) you aren't even as good as last years sales, only this years counts.

[Karl]

Hey Apech, perhaps you tax efficient existence might soon change ?

 

Courtesy of Guido Fawkes:

 

"The EU is laying the groundwork for new, centrally planned National Insurance-style numbers for every taxpayer in Europe. The proposal was passed by the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee last night, and chillingly calls for a ‘European Taxpayer Identification Number’ to keep track of every EU citizen. This is the European Commission text:

 

“Proper identification of taxpayers is essential to effective exchange of information between tax administrations. The creation of European Taxpayer Identification Number (EU TIN) would provide the best means for this identification. It would allow any third party to quickly, easily and correctly identify and record TINs in cross-border relations and serve as a basis for effective automatic exchange of information between member states tax administrations.”

Brussels wants the ability to track every EU taxpayer, laying the foundations for a new European tax…

 

The report also calls for the EU to take over member states’ corporate taxation powers with a common corporation tax base, banning sovereign states from increasing their competitiveness by cutting corporation tax below 15%. This is a direct attack on sovereignty and attempt to create a new, centralised EU tax system…

 

UPDATE: UKIP’s Steven Woolfe says:

 

“If we stay in the EU, we will be forced to pay a European tax. Plans for an EU taxpayer ID system – effectively a new continental National Insurance number – demonstrates their real ambitions for further integration. They are laying the foundations for an EU tax system.”

Edited May 25, 2016 by Karl

[Apech]

@Karl,

 

I'm relaxed about this given both HMRC and the Portuguese IRS have all my details - having a common number would probably be helpful.  And incidentally I have found that, although I cannot possess one myself, identity cards are actually a useful and convenient thing, saving all that nonsense with utility bills and wot not that you are subject to in England.  They are not the threatening erosion of civil liberties that some people have suggested but just a very easy to use method - which also serve as passport if needed.

 

I think we have to accept that in the age of credit cards and so on - most if not all of your activities are already or soon will be recorded electronically somehow.  

 

And we already pay a European Tax called VAT.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Apech

[Chang]

@Karl,

 

I'm relaxed about this given both HMRC and the Portuguese IRS have all my details - having a common number would probably be helpful.  And incidentally I have found that, although I cannot possess one myself, identity cards are actually a useful and convenient thing, saving all that nonsense with utility bills and wot not that you are subject to in England.  They are not the threatening erosion of civil liberties that some people have suggested but just a very easy to use method - which also serve as passport if needed.

 

I think we have to accept that in the age of credit cards and so on - most if not all of your activities are already or soon will be recorded electronically somehow.  

 

And we already pay a European Tax called VAT.

 

I must admit to wondering at what point your "relaxed" state regarding the ever increasing dominance by the E.U over every aspect of our lives will turn to a state of concern. You are everemore sounding like a lamb enroute to its own slaughter and even at the foot of the gallows yet will there be a smile on your face.

[Karl]

I must admit to wondering at what point your "relaxed" state regarding the ever increasing dominance by the E.U over every aspect of our lives will turn to a state of concern. You are everemore sounding like a lamb enroute to its own slaughter and even at the foot of the gallows yet will there be a smile on your face.

You answered that better than I could :-)

 

I noticed it made his life 'easier' when dealing with the state :-/ Freedom is not having to think-let the state carry that burden eh ;-)

 

When they allowed me to wear the yellow star they could better identify who I was, I couldn't be mistaken for anyone else. It meant I knew where I was going, which train I needed to take. I didn't need to stand around waiting or have to prove who I was. They put me on that train and took me to my new home.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Karl

[Apech]

I must admit to wondering at what point your "relaxed" state regarding the ever increasing dominance by the E.U over every aspect of our lives will turn to a state of concern. You are everemore sounding like a lamb enroute to its own slaughter and even at the foot of the gallows yet will there be a smile on your face.

 

You both , i.e. you and Karl, continue to resort to emotive hate filled images when talking on this subject.

 

I'm being practical.  Many people where I live, work or have worked in Holland, France and so on.  Often they receive letters about tax, pensions and national insurance from those countries and we help them with translation - luckily most Dutch people speak good English and my better half speaks French and Spanish.  Having a unified system would help these people greatly.  I don't think this kind of migrant work is going stop any time soon - unless they are replaced by robots!?!  So if the EU is actually going to do something useful like standardise processes or allow local services to deal with other national systems and advice I would welcome it.

 

The EU member states approach to dual tax and so on - is quite enlightened and fair as far as I have experienced.

 

I can only speak from experience - and not from under the shadow of the holocaust which is where you seem to be coming from.  Perhaps though, I live in a fairly benign and anglophile country - so maybe if I was somewhere else I would think slightly differently.

 

Just for clarity I will restate - if someone can paint (or even better detail) an alternative future outside the EU which does not involve invoking the Normandy Landings, the Battle of Britain, Agincourt, the Spanish Armada, the Sunday Observance Laws, half crowns and florins, quarter pound cheddar cheese wrapped personally by nice Mr. Sainsbury - then let me know and I will revise my position.

[Chang]

I do not feel the need to invoke images from the past when arguing for a British withdrawal from the E.U. It is not the past that causes me concern but the future.

 

You appear to relish the idea of a homogenized Europe and see it as a dream state. Your dream is my nightmare.

[Karl]

You are happy with statism Apech. You can't see what is right under your nose. You are taking freedom for granted even whilst it is being systematically removed.

 

What's the purpose of 'identity cards', phone records, Internet trawling, security cameras and rulers that you cannot remove from power ? What's next curfew and orange overalls ?

 

You have to understand that the commodity is humanity. You don't always need to see the whips and chains, but they are there all the same.

 

When will you call a halt ? Will you accept the cashless society because it's 'easier' because that's what the EU is planning, along with its own internal police force/security apparatus and army. All this whilst Europe is mired in enormous debt with economic stagnation, plus creating vast ghettoes of, poorly educated, anti-western, fundamental religious counter cultures to fill those corporate low wage jobs and frighten the rest into getting with the program.

 

Voting out is a tiny punch in the eye for statism and its corporate masters. That's why you should vote to leave, because it throws a clog in their machine. They will soon get it out, but then it will open the way for millions of clogs which they can't stop.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Karl

[Apech]

I do not feel the need to invoke images from the past when arguing for a British withdrawal from the E.U. It is not the past that causes me concern but the future.

 

You appear to relish the idea of a homogenized Europe and see it as a dream state. Your dream is my nightmare.

 

 

Do I?  When have I said anything like that?  I hate the idea of a homogenised state and don't see any evidence of there being one.  Odd that you have to mischaracterise my position in order to criticise it.   I happy living here in Europe and I enjoy benefits (and I don't mean welfare) by doing so.  It's good for me.  I'm treated well and fairly.  There are many things wrong with the EU.  In fact it is a disgrace.  But equally so is the UK.  The UK government and media these days represent a kind concerted nanny state attack on individual freedoms.  There is far more surveillance, message control, patronising health advice and political correctness in England than anywhere else I have ever been.  Why don't you protest against that?

[Apech]

You are happy with statism Apech. You can't see what is right under your nose. You are taking freedom for granted even whilst it is being systematically removed.

 

What's the purpose of 'identity cards', phone records, Internet trawling, security cameras and rulers that you cannot remove from power ? What's next curfew and orange overalls ?

 

You have to understand that the commodity is humanity. You don't always need to see the whips and chains, but they are there all the same.

 

When will you call a halt ? Will you accept the cashless society because it's 'easier' because that's what the EU is planning, along with its own internal police force/security apparatus and army. All this whilst Europe is mired in enormous debt with economic stagnation, plus creating vast ghettoes of, poorly educated, anti-western, fundamental religious counter cultures to fill those corporate low wage jobs and frighten the rest into getting with the program.

 

Voting out is a tiny punch in the eye for statism and its corporate masters. That's why you should vote to leave, because it throws a clog in their machine. They will soon get it out, but then it will open the way for millions of clogs which they can't stop.

 

Well see my post above to your comrade in arms Chang.  There is much, much more state control and surveillance (CCTVs and the rest) in England than here - which is relatively free from all that muck.  Even though this place was before the 70's a police state.  Personal freedoms such as the right to free speech and assembly are written into their constitution - show me where it exists in England these days.  So odd that you think Westminster will protect you from the very thing they are clearly so keen on.

[Chang]

You are twisting things somewhat Apech.

 

I for one do not expect Westminster to protect me from anything. We need to look to our own interests with a sense of rational self inteest.

 

The E.U. adds just another layer of control against which we will become increasingly powerless.

 

You are quite correct that you are free of state control to a large degree in Portugal. This is largely due to lack of organisational ability in that country which is only slightly better than Greece. With the homogenization of Europe we will all end on an equal footing. I believe in all honesty that I can promise you that.

 

I will also remind you that Portugal is in severe financial plight and may yet follow Greece into the abyss. When the E.U. steps in to sort your adopted country out you may have cause to change your views regarding its benevolence.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Chang

[Karl]

As Chang said, I also don't expect Westminster to protect me, but at least parliament is in one place and -however authoritarian-is elected. We are also not as over run with immigrants as Europe.

 

The EU can change the rules at any time, as Greece discovered.

 

It's interesting that the youth of Spain and Portugal are migrating to the UK because there is nothing for them on the European continent. Luckily we aren't fully part of the EU and are therefore doing reasonably well. I noticed the Euro fell sharply against the pound once again today and the pound rose against the dollar-so much for all that 'uncertainty' causing currency problems.

 

They say that financial collapse comes very slowly and then all at once. That is where the EU is headed and its rulers do not give a damn about anyone but themselves. They will drive Europe off a cliff and I want the UK as far away from the undertow as possible. If we vote in, we will be in all the way. When the EU goes off the cliff so will we. It's why the German finance minister is panicking and why, when questioned about his response to the UK leaving said ' I will cry'.

 

Just look at who is supporting the remain campaign. It's the who's who of the same banking elite that took down the world in 2007. It's these same financial butchers who stand to lose by us exiting. They have so much invested in tax payer backed debt that they are terrified the bigger economies split up and leave them broke. These are the same bankers who skewed the figures to get Greece into the EU as well as the poor Balkan countries. The same bankers who are pressing Greece for more debt and more austerity. You had better hope they don't move on to Portugal.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Karl

[Apech]

You are twisting things somewhat Apech.

 

I for one do not expect Westminster to protect me from anything. We need to look to our own interests with a sense of rational self inteest.

 

Presuming you meant interest and not incest as I first read it.  Well that's exactly what I am doing.  Making a choice in my own self interest which while not being perfect is the best for me (and mine).

 

The E.U. adds just another layer of control against which we will become increasingly powerless.

 

We are powerless already - especially in England.

You are quite correct that you are free of state control to a large degree in Portugal. This is largely due to lack of organisational ability in that country which is only slightly better than Greece. With the homogenization of Europe we will all end on an equal footing. I believe in all honesty that I can promise you that.

 

Oh really!  You know all about Portugal do you?  It's nothing like Greece that's a myth.  Ok it's relatively poor and lacks investment for infrastructure.  The public service were very well organised until austerity decimated them.  They still work though.  I'm not free of state control because they are disorganised but because they have a much more open and permissive attitude to living.  They do not spy on everyone like they do in England.  GCHQ remember!?!

 

I will also remind you that Portugal is in severe financial plight and may yet follow Greece into the abyss. When the E.U. steps in to sort your adopted country out you may have cause to change your views regarding its benevolence.

 

Well it actually pulled itself out of the bailout and although I agree the economy is weak it is no longer in recession.  The Portuguese invested a lot in education post the communist era and one of their problems is that they train many excellent doctors, nurses, technicians and scientists but they all emigrate to other parts of Europe and the states.

 

The whole attitude towards the financial crisis was almost the complete opposite to Greece and the comparison is odious and incorrect.

[Apech]

As Chang said, I also don't expect Westminster to protect me, but at least parliament is in one place and -however authoritarian-is elected. We are also not as over run with immigrants as Europe.

 

The EU can change the rules at any time, as Greece discovered.

 

It's interesting that the youth of Spain and Portugal are migrating to the UK because there is nothing for them on the European continent. Luckily we aren't fully part of the EU and are therefore doing reasonably well. I noticed the Euro fell sharply against the pound once again today and the pound rose against the dollar-so much for all that 'uncertainty' causing currency problems.

 

They say that financial collapse comes very slowly and then all at once. That is where the EU is headed and its rulers do not give a damn about anyone but themselves. They will drive Europe off a cliff and I want the UK as far away from the undertow as possible. If we vote in, we will be in all the way. When the EU goes off the cliff so will we. It's why the German finance minister is panicking and why, when questioned about his response to the UK leaving said ' I will cry'.

 

Just look at who is supporting the remain campaign. It's the who's who of the same banking elite that took down the world in 2007. It's these same financial butchers who stand to lose by us exiting. They have so much invested in tax payer backed debt that they are terrified the bigger economies split up and leave them broke. These are the same bankers who skewed the figures to get Greece into the EU as well as the poor Balkan countries. The same bankers who are pressing Greece for more debt and more austerity. You had better hope they don't move on to Portugal.

 

 

The Portuguese have put several (though not enough bankers in prison).  How many in England paid any price for their irresponsibility?  Ans. Zero.

[Karl]

The Portuguese have put several (though not enough bankers in prison).  How many in England paid any price for their irresponsibility?  Ans. Zero.

 

That's completely irrelevant. Putting bankers in prison has as much to do with things as how many prisoners did Stalin lock up in the Gulags. It tells me nothing about the EU only something about portugals laws. Iceland and the USA locked up several bankers and they aren't in the EU so then :-/

[Apech]

That's completely irrelevant. Putting bankers in prison has as much to do with things as how many prisoners did Stalin lock up in the Gulags. It tells me nothing about the EU only something about portugals laws. Iceland and the USA locked up several bankers and they aren't in the EU so then :-/

 

Its not irrelevant given that England is ruled by the Financial Services industry - accountable to no-one nit even the law.

[Karl]

Its not irrelevant given that England is ruled by the Financial Services industry - accountable to no-one nit even the law.

 

You think that Britain should stay in the EU because Britain has a strong financial industry and no bankers went to jail :-/

I'm sure that won't appear in the Remain campaigns reasons to stay and the Leave campaign certainly would be threatened by that revelation.m

 

 

[Apech]

You think that Britain should stay in the EU because Britain has a strong financial industry and no bankers went to jail :-/ I'm sure that won't appear in the Remain campaigns reasons to stay and the Leave campaign certainly would be threatened by that revelation.m

 

One point out of many as you well know.  I was simply pointing out that it is not 'completely irrelevant' as you asserted.  For a rational man you quickly drop logicality in an argument.

[Karl]

It's a non sequitur.

 

Other countries outside the EU put bankers in prison and some didn't . Some countries inside the EU put bankers in prison and some didn't.

 

That's the argument: some people who like toast get heart attacks, some people who don't like toast get heart attacks so therefore we should eat toast.

 

The law of each country decides who to prosecute and not the Government. Maybe the banking irregularities in Portugal were more clear cut than in Britain. Neither you or I know, it's just conjecture on your part and not a logical reason.

 

If you provide me some proof that Britain would be more lawful/just within the EU than out of it, then that would be a rational argument. However, you haven't, you have provided no evidence but an arbitrary statistic which I can drive a moon through.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Karl

[Apech]

It's a non sequitur.

 

Other countries outside the EU put bankers in prison and some didn't . Some countries inside the EU put bankers in prison and some didn't.

 

That's the argument: some people who like toast get heart attacks, some people who don't like toast get heart attacks so therefore we should eat toast.

 

The law of each country decides who to prosecute and not the Government. Maybe the banking irregularities in Portugal were more clear cut than in Britain. Neither you or I know, it's just conjecture on your part and not a logical reason.

 

If you provide me some proof that Britain would be more lawful/just within the EU than out of it, then that would be a rational argument. However, you haven't, you have provided no evidence but an arbitrary statistic which I can drive a moon through.

 

To be honest syllogisms while they may be correct in the way you apply them completely miss the point which I was making.  And that was this.  You argue for Brexit on the basis of liberty, by which you mean individual liberty and democratic rights (or that's what I think you mean).  My point is that England is completely in the hands of the driving forces behind the economy and managed by their lackeys.  The driving forces behind the English economy are financial services and banking (relying heavily on the internal housing market - i.e. lending money at stupid rates based on grossly inflated values).  They are untouchable even when they plunge the world into near depression (2008/9).  The Government then used our money - public money to bail out the banks as you will remember to muted protest.  If they truly had the value of individual rights why didn't they simply underwrite in full individual savings and let the banks live or die subject to market pressures?  Not only that but successive governments have continually eroded personal privacy and are running what is a nanny state - based on fear mongering and peoples natural fear of terrorism and so on.  Of the countries with which I am familiar - mostly Portugal and UK (but also France and Spain to a limited extent) the UK is the least likely to want to preserve my individual rights and so on.  And the people in power now are the same group who will hold power afterwards - they have seen to that.  So a vote for Brexit is not a vote against corporate power and the New World Order - in fact its a vote for their most enthusiastic proponents.

 

My small aside about jailing bankers was just an illustration that the prospectus which you put forward under the Leave campaign is wrong.  If indeed Brexit meant the end of the nanny state, the end of political correctness, the restoration of a working parliamentary democracy, a reaffirmation of the preservation of the rights of individual under law and a sound economic plan going forward for the next 25 - 50 years - then I would vote for it with enthusiasm. 

[Jetsun]

In terms of sovereignty the issue isn't as clear in the modern day, what I see now is the current government basically asset stripping the countries resources, mostly to foreign investors, so infrastructure, post office, energy, trains, land registry, vast swathes of land, and increasingly the health service all being sold off to people who have very little interest in the wellbeing of the country. So it is these investors and corporations who are increasingly gaining power year on year, which is down to our current government policy more than anything the EU is doing to curtail sovereignty.

 

Whether getting out of the EU is going to make any difference to this rise in the power of corporations to control us I don't know, some say it helps curb it, others say that the EU is so dominated by corporate lobbyists that it is just an extension of that power. That is the issue which concerns me the most.

[Apech]

In terms of sovereignty the issue isn't as clear in the modern day, what I see now is the current government basically asset stripping the countries resources, mostly to foreign investors, so infrastructure, post office, energy, trains, land registry, vast swathes of land, and increasingly the health service all being sold off to people who have very little interest in the wellbeing of the country. So it is these investors and corporations who are increasingly gaining power year on year, which is down to our current government policy more than anything the EU is doing to curtail sovereignty.

 

Whether getting out of the EU is going to make any difference to this rise in the power of corporations to control us I don't know, some say it helps curb it, others say that the EU is so dominated by corporate lobbyists that it is just an extension of that power. That is the issue which concerns me the most.

 

I don't agree completely with the following (not being the lefty I once was) - but he makes some interesting points:

 

[Karl]

To be honest syllogisms while they may be correct in the way you apply them completely miss the point which I was making.  And that was this.  You argue for Brexit on the basis of liberty, by which you mean individual liberty and democratic rights (or that's what I think you mean).  My point is that England is completely in the hands of the driving forces behind the economy and managed by their lackeys.  The driving forces behind the English economy are financial services and banking (relying heavily on the internal housing market - i.e. lending money at stupid rates based on grossly inflated values).  They are untouchable even when they plunge the world into near depression (2008/9).  The Government then used our money - public money to bail out the banks as you will remember to muted protest.  If they truly had the value of individual rights why didn't they simply underwrite in full individual savings and let the banks live or die subject to market pressures?  Not only that but successive governments have continually eroded personal privacy and are running what is a nanny state - based on fear mongering and peoples natural fear of terrorism and so on.  Of the countries with which I am familiar - mostly Portugal and UK (but also France and Spain to a limited extent) the UK is the least likely to want to preserve my individual rights and so on.  And the people in power now are the same group who will hold power afterwards - they have seen to that.  So a vote for Brexit is not a vote against corporate power and the New World Order - in fact its a vote for their most enthusiastic proponents.

 

My small aside about jailing bankers was just an illustration that the prospectus which you put forward under the Leave campaign is wrong.  If indeed Brexit meant the end of the nanny state, the end of political correctness, the restoration of a working parliamentary democracy, a reaffirmation of the preservation of the rights of individual under law and a sound economic plan going forward for the next 25 - 50 years - then I would vote for it with enthusiasm. 

 

The remain campaign is backed by Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan. If you wanted only one single reason that illustrates which side of the debate the bankers that blew up the world and got bailed out are on. Then add in Mark Carney-a central banker, and the IMF.

 

The argument you make is valid in and of itself-that Britain isn't going to be instantly liberalised when it leaves the EU. However, the establishment the holds the reigns are all on the side of 'remain'.

 

So, the question is about sovereignty, local governance and FWIW democracy. I'm not suggesting it's perfect, indeed I imply the opposite, but at least we are closer to making our own destiny. Whether that's a value to you personally, that's for you to decide. I probably think, by your replies, that it isn't. That's not a stance I can agree with. As far as I see it, there are no advantages to remaining locked into a union in which the main continent is in its economic and social death throes. The risks of remaining are proportionately higher than those of leaving- we already had to put in extra money to bail out Greece.

 

When the UK erroneously joined the union we were the sick man, now it looks like Europe has entered the sick man period. Our economy roared ahead through deregulation of the banking sector and the cutting up of socialistic nationalised industries. Europe is now a dead weight for everyone except for the crony capitalists (Goldman and Morgan's are among that group) who are making a bundle by tax subsidies, Tarriffs and anti-competitive eu regulations.

 

If I could see one bright point in the EU I would expose it, but there isn't, it's a mess. What I find extraordinary is that much of the remain campaigners accept its a mess, but think, if we stay in we can reform it. At that point you have to throw up hands in utter disbelief. We have been threatening to change it for 40 years, even to the point that Cameron threatened a referendum to leave, yet, even now the EU Eurocrats are telling us that if we leave they won't deal with us ! The simple fact is that this is a German/US project and there is no place for UK influence. We arrived as the sick man and as far as Germany and France is concerned that's our ultimate position. They have a plan and nothing is to get in its way, that's not a plan where we will be anything other than a bit part player and a cash cow.

 

These are the facts, you have to make your mind up on those things that we see and know. Britain won't be a perfect utopia outside the EU, but it most certainly will be in a position to make that call on its own terms. If we fail, then that's our hard luck, we woukd be crazy to stay locked in a union that is already failing. Much better in the lifeboat than in the sinking passenger liner. I don't see the EU being rescued in the short term and though the lifeboat doesn't guarantee safety, at least we aren't drowning.

[Karl]

In terms of sovereignty the issue isn't as clear in the modern day, what I see now is the current government basically asset stripping the countries resources, mostly to foreign investors, so infrastructure, post office, energy, trains, land registry, vast swathes of land, and increasingly the health service all being sold off to people who have very little interest in the wellbeing of the country. So it is these investors and corporations who are increasingly gaining power year on year, which is down to our current government policy more than anything the EU is doing to curtail sovereignty.

Whether getting out of the EU is going to make any difference to this rise in the power of corporations to control us I don't know, some say it helps curb it, others say that the EU is so dominated by corporate lobbyists that it is just an extension of that power. That is the issue which concerns me the most.

 

That's nothing to do with sovereignty. Sovereignty rests on the electorate and its Government to decide its fate. Selling land or resources is immaterial.

[Jetsun]

 

That's nothing to do with sovereignty. Sovereignty rests on the electorate and its Government to decide its fate. Selling land or resources is immaterial.

Well if foreigners run infrastructure such as energy and transport then it clearly is relevant, as it is an erosion of the power of the government to influence key areas of the country they are meant to be governing.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Jetsun