Britain and the European Union

[Karl]

They are trying to link it. There are calls of 'an attack on democracy' and 'these far right Brexiteers need to be stopped'. This is a blatent attempt to try and shame the leave side but without the slightest evidence that this man was involved in anyway. Indeed, as yet there are still eye witnesses that reported that Joe 'stepped in' to prevent an attack on somebody else.

 

The Government are attempting to control the narrative by stopping the campaign and even suggesting that voting might be delayed-without any explanation of what that means. This is a tragic and horrible crime, but it is one of a number of violent crimes that happen every day and none of them shut down the political process. What's being set up here, is that anyone daring to cross the rubicon the Government has set will be summarily shamed as a baddy. It means it's the Government that is controlling the flow of information and the activities of the campaigners. Didn't anyone ever hear 'the show must go on'. If the murderer had been a terrorist we would have all gone about our business as usual and put two fingers up at anyone trying to prevent it.

 

The elite are losing and they have grasped onto an opportunity like drowning rats. Cameron and co are repositioning themselves in light of their shameless use of fear propaganda to terrify the public. It backfired and has made Cameron and Co look like idiots and tyrants, so this gives them a breathing space to try and claw back a sense of control.

[Apech]

that event was freezing Han Solo in carbonite - a test - for implementation here later.

 

... er ... what?

[Chang]

I have just listened to the News and now have to admit to a fear that you are right Karl.

 

One Interviewee, giving a eulogy praising Jo Cox, was rambling on that the population must now stand united against the forces of hatred and "separatism" in memory of Jo who spent her life campaigning against these evils.

[Apech]

I agree that this is a sickening exploitation of a tragic event.  Disgraceful.

[dust]

Managed to keep my eyes away from this thread for a while now. Not disappointed to find y'all discussing the murder in conspiratorial tones.

 

Until the whole story is known, why not keep your mouths shut in the same way that you're saying others should keep theirs shut?

 

The real likelihood seems to be that the man was mentally deranged, and that this really has little to do with the referendum. We all know that most people on either side do not support murder over the issue. The murder should not influence people on either side.

 

What also seems likely to me is that The Guardian and Daily Mail alike are focusing on the story because it's sensational and will sell well.

 

I agree that the tragedy should not be used to further anyone's political aims. So, yes, why don't we all try to keep it away from the EU referendum talk?

Edited June 17, 2016 by dustybeijing

[Karl]

No one is discussing it as a conspiracy. Some mentally ill person decided to make a gun and murder someone-we don't even know of Joe was the intended target.

 

The disgusting thing is that the remain side are spinning it as a conspiracy fronted by a leave campaigner who wanted to shut down the remain side. To discover Angela Eagle had tweeted that the man had shouted 'Britain First' when this had not been confirmed makes it worse. The press and the politicians on the leave side are the conspirators who have used the tragic, senseless murder of a young woman and mother, as a way to further their agenda.

 

If a UKIP MP had tweeted that the man shouted 'Alu Akbar' without qualification then they would have been accused of trying to stir up racists tensions, but when the Government and its presstitutes do it ....nada.

 

Angela Eagle should have been sacked, as should any politician attempting to link this to the referendum. It's sick and depraved. I knew our politicians were bad, I just didn't realise just how low they were prepared to stoop.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Karl

[joeblast]

Managed to keep my eyes away from this thread for a while now. Not disappointed to find y'all discussing the murder in conspiratorial tones.

 

Until the whole story is known, why not keep your mouths shut in the same way that you're saying others should keep theirs shut?

 

The real likelihood seems to be that the man was mentally deranged, and that this really has little to do with the referendum. We all know that most people on either side do not support murder over the issue. The murder should not influence people on either side.

 

What also seems likely to me is that The Guardian and Daily Mail alike are focusing on the story because it's sensational and will sell well.

 

I agree that the tragedy should not be used to further anyone's political aims. So, yes, why don't we all try to keep it away from the EU referendum talk?

so gladio its that simple

[Miffymog]

Managed to keep my eyes away from this thread for a while now. Not disappointed to find y'all discussing the murder in conspiratorial tones.

 

Until the whole story is known, why not keep your mouths shut in the same way that you're saying others should keep theirs shut?

 

The real likelihood seems to be that the man was mentally deranged, and that this really has little to do with the referendum. We all know that most people on either side do not support murder over the issue. The murder should not influence people on either side.

 

What also seems likely to me is that The Guardian and Daily Mail alike are focusing on the story because it's sensational and will sell well.

 

I agree that the tragedy should not be used to further anyone's political aims. So, yes, why don't we all try to keep it away from the EU referendum talk?

 

Sorry Dustybeijing, I'm afraid I'm not with you on this one.

 

There is sometimes a danger returning to a thread after taking a break from it. From my reading, the comments about this terrible event on this thread have been considered. In fact, I feel they have actually avoided being reactionary or manipulative and instead have only sought to highlight when others have been.

[joeblast]

cui bono,  britain first?  yeah right.

 

 

 

[dust]

No one is discussing it as a conspiracy. Some mentally ill person decided to make a gun and murder someone-we don't even know of Joe was the intended target.

 

Well, we do now.

 

 

The disgusting thing is that the remain side are spinning it as a conspiracy fronted by a leave campaigner who wanted to shut down the remain side. To discover Angela Eagle had tweeted that the man had shouted 'Britain First' when this had not been confirmed makes it worse. The press and the politicians on the leave side are the conspirators who have used the tragic, senseless murder of a young woman and mother, as a way to further their agenda.

 

A few people may have responded poorly, recklessly, but the news reports I've seen over the last day or so have been focused on the woman herself, and the major politicians I've seen interviewed have not said much at all. Cameron and Corbyn both followed the "She was a rising star, a lovely woman" line without any mention of the attack itself.

 

 

If a UKIP MP had tweeted that the man shouted 'Alu Akbar' without qualification then they would have been accused of trying to stir up racists tensions, but when the Government and its presstitutes do it ....nada.

 

They'd also be accused of not knowing how to spell "Allahu Akbar"...

 

Anyway, not without qualification. Reports were based on an eyewitness account.

 

 

Angela Eagle should have been sacked, as should any politician attempting to link this to the referendum. It's sick and depraved. I knew our politicians were bad, I just didn't realise just how low they were prepared to stoop.

 

Yes, the man is clearly a nutter and it should have no influence over the referendum, which is why I previously suggested we not discuss it here.

 

The man is a neo-Nazi who seems to have killed her because she was a "traitor" (his words). It has some link to the current sociopolitical climate, but it should not influence anyone's feeling over the referendum.

[dust]

There is sometimes a danger returning to a thread after taking a break from it.

I read everything from June 16th onwards -- everything on or after the day of the murder. The first notable comment is Karl's, at the top of page 43, where he says,

 

"I notice that MPs like Angela Eagle who tweeted 'there was a shout of Britain first' have been hurriedly deleted after several eye witnesses said that no words were shouted. Remain are a desperate, depraved, opportunist vampires crying crocodile tears over the tragic death of a young woman.

...

Anyone voting remain must weigh up the evidence of what now appears to be a fascist dictatorship of the worst kind and vote leave immediately."

 

and then

 

"Cameron and co are repositioning themselves in light of their shameless use of fear propaganda to terrify the public. It backfired and has made Cameron and Co look like idiots and tyrants"

 

and things of the sort.

 

Karl got excited, said some silly shit, like we all do. I maintain that the best idea would have been for everyone to not talk about it at all.

 

 

From my reading, the comments about this terrible event on this thread have been considered. In fact, I feel they have actually avoided being reactionary or manipulative and instead have only sought to highlight when others have been.

 

I disagree.

[Karl]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-19/greeks-send-open-letter-uk-citizens-about-brexit

 

Greeks know the score.

[Karl]

I read everything from June 16th onwards -- everything on or after the day of the murder. The first notable comment is Karl's, at the top of page 43, where he says,

 

"I notice that MPs like Angela Eagle who tweeted 'there was a shout of Britain first' have been hurriedly deleted after several eye witnesses said that no words were shouted. Remain are a desperate, depraved, opportunist vampires crying crocodile tears over the tragic death of a young woman.

...

Anyone voting remain must weigh up the evidence of what now appears to be a fascist dictatorship of the worst kind and vote leave immediately."

 

and then

 

"Cameron and co are repositioning themselves in light of their shameless use of fear propaganda to terrify the public. It backfired and has made Cameron and Co look like idiots and tyrants"

 

and things of the sort.

 

Karl got excited, said some silly shit, like we all do. I maintain that the best idea would have been for everyone to not talk about it at all.

 

 

 

 

I disagree.

Comments such as 'it's an attack on democracy' ?

Brexiteer kills MP (daily star)

 

 

The comments of politicians/media were to attempt to link a hard right group to those who are concerned about uncontrolled immigration. In other words should you wish to vote to leave, then you will be considered an extreme right racist.

 

There's more than an even chance that this will have the effect of persuading some people that voting to leave is next to being a Nazi. It has killed the momentum of the leave campaign and might well destroy any chance of us freeing ourselves from this despotic Union.

 

I

[Karl]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-19/europes-message-those-who-oppose-eu-membership-are-violent

 

 

....because I wrote some stupid shit and this isn't the way the establishment are spinning it.....oh oops that's exactly the way they are portraying it.

[Chang]

It was inevitable that the Remainiac’s would make use of this crime to further their own ends.

 

Jo Cox represented all that was Left Wing, Liberal and Internationalist and the fact that she appears to have been assassinated by a right wing maniac (who continues to advertise his beliefs in court) has given the Remain Camp an unrivalled opportunity to obtain the sympathy vote in the eleventh hour.

 

It will only have a minor effect when it comes to polling day but with things as close run as they appear to be that may be all it takes.

 

I have stated many times in this forum that I find it very difficult to believe in conspiracy theories but I have little doubt that the murder of Jo Cox is going to make a very good one.

 

It would also appear that history does indeed repeat itself:-

 

Swedish politician’s death 13 years ago mirrors murder of UK lawmaker

The fatal attack on a pro-European British lawmaker just a week ahead of the key Brexit referendum vote has shaken politicians and voters across the U.K.

 

While this is the first time in nearly a quarter of a century that a U.K. politician has been murdered, the case bears startling similarities to the assassination 13 years ago in Sweden of pro-EU Anna Lindh.

 

Days before Sweden would vote on whether to join the euro in 2003, a 46-year-old lead campaigner for Sweden's to adopt the euro was stabbed while shopping in a Stockholm department store. She had been shopping for clothes for a euro zone debate scheduled that evening. The next day, on September 11, Social Democratic foreign minister Lindh died from her injuries.

 

Both sides of the Swedish political campaign suspended their activities following the news, with TV ads campaigns cancelled and billboard and print media ads withdrawn.

 

On the following Sunday, Swedes rejected proposals to adopt the common currency so in the Swedish case the murder of a Pro E.U. Politician did not sway the vote towards closer ties.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Chang

[Karl]

I know what you mean Chang and I don't want to think that this is anything other than the act of a mentally ill lone man. I want that to be true because if it isn't......

[Karl]

 

http://sputniknews.com/society/20160618/1041544797/Hollande-Ban-Protests-Involve-Millions.html

 

 

remember all this great 'workers rights' the eu is responsible for ? Remember how democratic it is ?

 

Disappearing from the UK soon. I wonder how long it will be before Britain turns into a Dickens novel if we stay ?

 

None of this is reported on the MSM-don't want to scare those voters-but the RMT Union are pushing to leave as they also know the score.

[Apech]

I long for Thursday.

[Karl]

So do I, but must fight all the way to the wire. When I've done all I can I'm going to turn off the TV for a month.

[Apech]

At last an article with some historical facts in it (by noted historian Anthony Beevor):

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-make-britain-worlds-most-hated-nation

[Chang]

At last an article with some historical facts in it (by noted historian Anthony Beevor):

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-make-britain-worlds-most-hated-nation

 

You never disappoint Apech.

 

 This article is typical Guardian fodder and its arguments have more holes than a Swiss Cheese. Leaving the E.U. will not make us either more liked or disliked in Europe or indeed the world and if the U.K. leaving the E.U. will hasten its disintegration then it must be pretty fragile to start with.

 

As regards "historical facts" we can all quote "facts" to support our own arguments.

[Apech]

You never disappoint Apech.

 

 This article is typical Guardian fodder and its arguments have more holes than a Swiss Cheese. Leaving the E.U. will not make us either more liked or disliked in Europe or indeed the world and if the U.K. leaving the E.U. will hasten its disintegration then it must be pretty fragile to start with.

 

As regards "historical facts" we can all quote "facts" to support our own arguments.

 

That's called opinion.  I was referring to the discussion of history not his, your or my opinion.  This whole debate has been conducted on the level you seem to like i.e. aggravation and not objective discussion.  Whatever the outcome this is the most regrettable thing.

[Jetsun]

At last an article with some historical facts in it (by noted historian Anthony Beevor):

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-make-britain-worlds-most-hated-nation

 

Strange title for the content of the article. When I was studying history Anthony Beevor was considered a well respected and reliable historian and his perspective on the EU is an interesting and helpful one. 

[dust]

I'm not as pro-remain as Karl and Chang and others are pro-leave. Honestly, though I've been 'fighting' on the remain side, it's partly because nobody else was -- in the last 2-3 pages I read before I started posting in here, I didn't see much but anti-EU propaganda. I asked for a "stunningly cogent argument" and got, pretty much, more angry rhetoric.

 

Polemic arguments breed polemic arguments. I have done what I can to counter the silly things Karl and Chang have been saying, but the more it goes on the more evident it becomes that they don't know how to discuss a subject using cited historical fact, honest data, expert opinion, or anything but rhetoric and anger. Or that they're unwilling to. Either way.

 

This is not to say that the leave side doesn't have its merits. To be honest, I'm almost 50/50. I see the flaws in the EU, the craziness of the decision-making system, the lobbies, the potential for great corruption, the loss of power to Brussels. I somewhat understand the fear of this so-called 'European Superstate' -- it's a possibility, and it's not necessarily a good thing.

 

Obviously, I also see it from the point of view from which I've been arguing. And the benefits of having an EU, and of Britain being part of it, seem to outweigh the negatives.

 

Mostly, I'm curious to see what happens next.

[Chang]

The heart of the Brexit argument is simplicity itself.

 

Does the U.K. remain part of what is fast becoming an increasingly autocratic Super State or do we strive to maintain our own sovereignty and identity?

 

Let me put the question in another way. Do we consider ourselves children who cannot be trusted to think and act for ourselves and need Nanny to think and act for us or are we grown up and able to think and act for ourselves?

 

Remain campaigners would brand these questions as emotive and not relevant to the argument but the reality of the situation is that this is the nitty gritty of the whole affair.

 

A German acquaintance of mine has sent an e-mail to all of those in his address book who will be eligible to vote on Thursday. He states that his heartfelt hope is that we will vote for a Europe without borders and work towards a world without borders.

 

If that is what you desire then you should most certainly vote to remain within the E.U. but please be mindful of the old Chinese curse “may you get all that you wish for.”