Britain and the European Union

[Apech]

Copy of a comment from Guardian pages:

 

 

The whole idea that you might get something even remotely resembling Sovereignty if you'd vote out is a delusion of the highest order. The UK has not lost its sovereignty to the EU; rather its loss (in so far you can logically lose something that you can't actually really gain back...) is simply a side-effect of general Globalization, and the fact every asset worth anything in the UK is owner by some Arab or Russian billionaire and leaving the EU won't change a single bit. If anything, it will make it worse, because you will have less protections and safety nets.

A part of me almost wants you to vote out just so you can see how utterly misguided this whole idea was in the first place...

 

[Miffymog]

I take it you haven't participated in an election in the UK before.

 

Nope - never felt strongly enough either way on previous elections.

[Apech]

Nope - never felt strongly enough either way on previous elections.

 

Well, it always works the way you describe.  In the case of challenge about electoral fraud individual ballot papers can if necessary be checked back to the voter so they can say which way they voted.  If there is no challenge the ballot papers are sealed away for a number of years and then destroyed (I think its 12 years).  But the UK rejected ID cards which is the method in the rest of Europe - where you need both ID card and voting registration number (which can be obtained online) to vote.

[Miffymog]

Well, it always works the way you describe.  In the case of challenge about electoral fraud individual ballot papers can if necessary be checked back to the voter so they can say which way they voted.  If there is no challenge the ballot papers are sealed away for a number of years and then destroyed (I think its 12 years).  But the UK rejected ID cards which is the method in the rest of Europe - where you need both ID card and voting registration number (which can be obtained online) to vote.

 

 

Aaarrrhhh - that makes me feel a lot better. They did mention something about a number when they gave me my card, and that's how they can then trace the ballot slip back to me ... cheers.

[Chang]

Copy of a comment from Guardian pages:

 

Quote

The whole idea that you might get something even remotely resembling Sovereignty if you'd vote out is a delusion of the highest order. The UK has not lost its sovereignty to the EU; rather its loss (in so far you can logically lose something that you can't actually really gain back...) is simply a side-effect of general Globalization, and the fact every asset worth anything in the UK is owner by some Arab or Russian billionaire and leaving the EU won't change a single bit. If anything, it will make it worse, because you will have less protections and safety nets.

A part of me almost wants you to vote out just so you can see how utterly misguided this whole idea was in the first place...

 

It would be interesting to know made this comment. The very fact that it is from the pages of the Guardian says much but i am sure that you can give us a name.

[dust]

From what I have read here it sounds as bad or worse than I thought it sounds. It basically confirms that the target number of houses can't be fulfilled even if they want to and with record numbers of immigration last year how is that sustainable? For someone relatively young like me who lives in the South East I am basically screwed when trying to buy my own home unless both me and my partner can somehow get a job at a minimum of double the average wage,and even then it won't be easy. The younger generation are more or less screwed unless they inherit wealth or property .

 

What I posted suggests that the target number of houses has been roughly the same since WWII, and confirms that we have been building fewer houses per year for decades -- while immigration has been slowly increasing. Slowly.

 

Obviously there was much more need for rebuilding in the years immediately following the war, but there's always a high demand. Immigration has very little to do with it.

 

 

 

 

The fact that we have been consistently building fewer new homes each year for decades.... well, I wonder how you connect that to immigration?

 

Your situation is similar to mine, and I commiserate. I don't plan on ever being able to buy a house.

 

But seriously: stop blaming immigration, or stop blaming immigrants, for your problems when they have little or nothing to do with it.

Edited June 23, 2016 by dustybeijing

[Apech]

Aaarrrhhh - that makes me feel a lot better. They did mention something about a number when they gave me my card, and that's how they can then trace the ballot slip back to me ... cheers.

 

 

I've worked as a Poll Clerk and Presiding Officer and one thing they hammer home is electoral fraud and 'personation' - which means pretending to be someone else to vote for them - is punishable with a hefty jail sentence.  One of the times I did it the Presiding Officer closed the polling station bang on 10 pm. (by his watch) and a couple of people turned up late and were turned away.  The resulting enquiry and grilling I got was scary in the extreme even though it wasn't my responsibility.  I'm not saying there are never informalities or that voter fraud is non-existent but I would say it is very small scale and both the Returning Officers and the Police are on the spot watching whats going on.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Apech

[Apech]

 

Quote

 

It would be interesting to know made this comment. The very fact that it is from the pages of the Guardian says much but i am sure that you can give us a name.

 

 

 

It was a posted comment to an article so no I can't give you a name.

 

PS.  Comment by Mr. Europe on this article:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/23/pound-and-ftse-100-rally-as-city-expects-remain-vote

Edited June 23, 2016 by Apech

[Chang]

I've worked as a Poll Clerk and Presiding Officer and one thing they hammer home is electoral fraud and 'personation' - which means pretending to be someone else to vote for them - is punishable with a hefty jail sentence.  One of the times I did it the Presiding Officer closed the polling station bang on 10 pm. (by his watch) and a couple of people turned up late and were turned away.  The resulting enquiry and grilling I got was scary in the extreme even though it wasn't my responsibility.  I'm not saying there are never informalities or that voter fraud is non-existent but I would say it is very small scale and both the Returning Officers and the Police are on the spot watching whats going on.

 

 

With the advent of postal voting in the U.K. election fraud has now become far more common wherever Pakistani interests are at stake. This is common knowledge and should come as no surprise to those who have had any involvement with Pakistani communities.

 

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/181257/Understanding-Electoral-Fraud-Jan-2015.pdf

[Jetsun]

What I posted suggests that the target number of houses has been roughly the same since WWII, and confirms that we have been building fewer houses per year for decades -- while immigration has been slowly increasing. Slowly.

 

Obviously there was much more need for rebuilding in the years immediately following the war, but there's always a high demand. Immigration has very little to do with it.

 

 

 

 

The fact that we can't keep up with demand -- a demand which, I repeat, is LESS than in previous decades -- well, I wonder how you connect that to immigration?

 

Immigration has been increasing exponentially http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics,

 

 

 

330,000 in 2015 which is the second highest in recorded history!!! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36382199 so how is demand decreasing? 

[Jetsun]

 

 

The fact that we have been consistently building fewer new homes each year for decades.... well, I wonder how you connect that to immigration?

 

Your situation is similar to mine, and I commiserate. I don't plan on ever being able to buy a house.

 

But seriously: stop blaming immigration, or stop blaming immigrants, for your problems when they have little or nothing to do with it.

 

Its quite simple, the more people the more demand for houses, thus without increased building of homes the prices of existing houses rockets to levels where nobody except the wealthy can afford one.

 

It is a fact that immigration and the population level has an effect on house demand, and immigration is at record levels in the UK as pointed out by all independent statistics. This is just a fact and if you can't point out the basic facts of a situation out of political correctness then we are really are utterly screwed.

 

I have no problem with immigrants and immigration if it can be sustained, ie by increased investment in public services, schools and building of homes. Without that then the main people who benefit from un-managed immigration are big business and corporations who can pay rock bottom wages to their staff,

Edited June 23, 2016 by Jetsun

[joeblast]

called that one all they had to do was murder a politician

 

so does that mean the USA gets another 911 before the sElection, to make sure we vote the right way?

 

electoral fraud carries the day once again

[C T]

This was all the rage today (well... not 'all' really but it did heave some publicity anyhow)

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-referendum-brexit-immigration-what-it-means-facts-live-updates-newspaper-advert-leave-remain-a7095191.html 

 

 

*If anyone's interested, I think ITVnews are covering the counting live over the next 12 hours or so. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*edit +

Edited June 23, 2016 by C T

[dust]

Jetsun,

 

Immigration has been the main source of population growth in the country for a while, and without it our population would likely be decreasing. I don't think I denied that.

 

However, a lot of this apparent lack of housing is down to:
 
-- Decrease in new builds, as I've already pointed out (which as I've also mentioned is not down to immigration)

-- Increase in single-person living. This has more than doubled since the '60s. Single-person households were at 29% in 2009, and it is I think generally agreed that this is down to high divorce rates from the '70s onwards and young adults becoming increasingly slow to get married and have kids

 

It is a fact that immigration and the population level has an effect on house demand, and immigration is at record levels in the UK as pointed out by all independent statistics. This is just a fact and if you can't point out the basic facts of a situation out of political correctness then we are really are utterly screwed.

 

As I mentioned, I don't think I've said that immigration isn't high, only that it isn't single-handedly responsible for your inability to buy a house.

 

 

I have no problem with immigrants and immigration if it can be sustained, ie by increased investment in public services, schools and building of homes. Without that then the main people who benefit from un-managed immigration are big business and corporations who can pay rock bottom wages to their staff,

 

What is unmanaged immigration? You mean illegal immigration? Of course, this should be stopped as much as we're able to. But estimates for illegals here range from 400,000 to 800,000 -- not the major component of the immigrant population. The rest are workers, students, asylum seekers, and family members.

 

International migrants can only apply for a work visa if they are highly skilled, rich, or have 'shortage skills' -- i.e. they can or are willing to do things the British are not.

 

High numbers of migrants are students, who often bugger off home after a while -- but only after spending a lot of money here.

 

I hope I don't need to defend the responsibility we have to accept at least some people seeking asylum.

 

And as Cameron said (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-speech-on-immigration),

 

"We also recognised that we needed to reduce the demand for migrant labour by making our own people able and willing to do the jobs this country needs.

... reducing the demand for skilled workers, and cracking down on those who exploit low-skilled workers. That starts with training our own people."

 

If people born here aren't willing to do certain jobs, someone else needs to be found. Go into your local NHS hospital and see how many workers were born here vs abroad. Consultants, nurses, caregivers, caretakers, etc.

 

The situation is not as simple as "stop the foreigners coming here so I can buy a house."

 

And, once more, the decrease in new housing is not the fault of these migrants -- supply is not meeting demand at least partly because we're not building enough, not simply because we have too many people.

 

So, I repeat, stop blaming immigrants for problems that are not their fault.

Edited June 23, 2016 by dustybeijing

[Jetsun]

Jetsun,

 

Immigration has been the main source of population growth in the country for a while, and without it our population would likely be decreasing. I don't think I denied that.

 

However, a lot of this apparent lack of housing is down to:

 

-- Decrease in new builds, as I've already pointed out (which as I've also mentioned is not down to immigration)

-- Increase in single-person living. This has more than doubled since the '60s. Single-person households were at 29% in 2009, and it is I think generally agreed that this is down to high divorce rates from the '70s onwards and young adults becoming increasingly slow to get married and have kids

 

 

 

As I mentioned, I don't think I've said that immigration isn't high, only that it isn't single-handedly responsible for your inability to buy a house.

 

 

 

What is unmanaged immigration? You mean illegal immigration? Of course, this should be stopped as much as we're able to. But estimates for illegals here range from 400,000 to 800,000 -- not the major component of the immigrant population. The rest are workers, students, asylum seekers, and family members.

 

International migrants can only apply for a work visa if they are highly skilled, rich, or have 'shortage skills' -- i.e. they can or are willing to do things the British are not.

 

High numbers of migrants are students, who often bugger off home after a while -- but only after spending a lot of money here.

 

I hope I don't need to defend the responsibility we have to accept at least some people seeking asylum.

 

And as Cameron said (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-speech-on-immigration),

 

"We also recognised that we needed to reduce the demand for migrant labour by making our own people able and willing to do the jobs this country needs.

... reducing the demand for skilled workers, and cracking down on those who exploit low-skilled workers. That starts with training our own people."

 

If people born here aren't willing to do certain jobs, someone else needs to be found. Go into your local NHS hospital and see how many workers were born here vs abroad. Consultants, nurses, caregivers, caretakers, etc.

 

The situation is not as simple as "stop the foreigners coming here so I can buy a house."

 

And, once more, the decrease in new housing is not the fault of these migrants -- supply is not meeting demand at least partly because we're not building enough, not simply because we have too many people.

 

So, I repeat, stop blaming immigrants for problems that are not their fault.

 

You are attacking a straw man. I never said I was against all immigration or that I solely blame immigration for my problems, but immigration is a factor in increased house prices and is only going to get worse. It has been agreed upon by both sides of the Brexit debate that 240 houses a day need to be built to keep up with current levels of immigration, how is that going to work when your own links say that that figure is impossible to meet?

 

Unmanaged immigration is letting everyone in without planning how you are going to deal with all the new people and increased population.  Nearly all nations try to manage their immigration levels so they can manage infastructure such as schools, medicine and housing. Excessive levels creates a strain on all of that an on social cohesion. Not managing it is incompetence by government

[TomBrad]

We won!!!

[ralis]

We won!!!

 

Perhaps, but the GBP is taking a beating on the currency exchange. 31 year low.

[TomBrad]

Perhaps, but the GBP is taking a beating on the currency exchange. 31 year low.

 

It'll blow over.

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Taoist Texts]

Jetsun,

 

Immigration has been the main source of population growth in the country for a while, and without it our population would likely be decreasing. 

(gasp) oh no! population decreasing! that would mean more infrastructure, jobs and breathing space for every one! oh the horror! quick, import some unskilled freeloaders!

[Miffymog]

 I NEVER SAW THIS COMING

 

I can't express how happy and relieved I am

 

[Karl]

After 4 years of campaigning......thank you Britain.

[wilfred]

liberals are tearing their hair out, it's very entertaining. many are saying it shouldn't of gone to a vote ie democracy is good when it goes their way. how dare all those stupid ignorant people have a say!

 

i didn't vote.