Britain and the European Union

[Chang]

A terrorist attack has happened in Europe. Let the standard response begin…

Douglas Murray

 

 

Well at least we all know the form by now.  This morning Islamist suicide-bombers struck one of the few European capitals they haven’t previously hit in a mass-casualty terrorist attack.

 

The standard response now goes as follows.  First the body parts of innocent people are flung across airport check-ins or underground trains.  Briefly there is some shock.  On social media the sentimentalists await the arrival of this atrocity’s cutesy hashtag or motif and hope it will tide them over until the piano man arrives at the scene of the attack to sing ‘Imagine there’s no countries’.  Meantime someone will hopefully have said something which a lot of people can condemn as ‘inappropriate’.  I see that the Telegraph columnist Allison Pearson was this morning’s Twitter miscreant, foolish enough to say in the wake of the Brussels attack that the EU might not make us very safe.  One may agree or disagree with this sentiment, but Ms Pearson should have known that the only acceptable thing to do after a suicide bomber detonates beside the European Commission is to acclaim the Commission as one of the few entities able to keep us safe.

 

We will shortly move to the next phase, which is to find a good news story amid the rubble.  Anything will do, but best of all is a Muslim good news story.  After Paris it was swiftly reported that one of the suicide bombers at Stade de France had been turned away by a brave Muslim security guard.  The story whizzed around the world before anyone could check whether it was true.  It wasn’t.  But people needed it to be.  Not because Muslims don’t do good deeds, but because in the wake of any Islamist terrorist attack people need people opposed to the bombers to be Muslim and the bombers themselves not to be Muslim.  Then the good Muslim can represent Islam while the bad Muslims can be said to have nothing to do with it.

 

Soon we will move to the next phase, during which broadcast media will ask questions that address no major points.  So in the UK the government’s Communications Data Bill will get quite a lot of mentions.  We will probably also have another round of the old discussion about Control Orders versus TPIMs.  This will most likely be first raised by a Labour politician hoping to look tough. Everywhere on the media people will start to talk of ‘radicalisation’ as though it is something you can get from the water, and experts will claim insight into the ‘paths to extremism’.  Nicky Morgan will announce that the Prevent agenda should be extended to encompass pre-kindergarten.  A year later she will close some Quaker-run nursery.

 

Meanwhile other people will change the subject over to the question of Belgium’s unacceptably interventionist foreign policy.  Others will get onto Israel-Palestine.  At around the same time the Corbynite-wing of the Labour party will get onto their favourite subject which is not dead bodies in airports but people who have been looked at meanly on a bus while wearing a headscarf.  By at least tomorrow the story of a savage ‘backlash’ (consisting mainly of stares and horrible things written on social media) will be being talked-up by all mainstream Muslim leaders.  By Thursday no one will be talking about the victims.

Meanwhile Twitter will reprise some version of the post-Sydney ‘I’ll ride with you’ meme (based on a fib) or the ‘You ain’t no Muslim, bruv’ which was shouted during December’s Leytonstone attack by a non-Muslim and briefly acclaimed by everyone from the Prime Minister down as one of the finest expressions ever of the English spirit and language.

 

This is how it goes in Europe now.  Everything barely worth saying will be said endlessly.  And the only things that are worth saying won’t be said.  What are those things?  Among other things the fact that we are living with the consequences of an immigration and ‘integration’ fantasy which should have been abandoned years ago.  Instead our governments have kept pretending that the weakening of Europe’s external borders and the erosion of its internal borders happening at the same time as one of the largest population replacement exercises in history could have no tangible effects on our continent’s future.  They pretend that Britain will always be Britain, France will always be France, Sweden will always be Sweden and Belgium will always be Belgium.

 

But perhaps we do learn some things. Albeit silently. A decade ago, after every attack, the pundits used to point to places where mass immigration, integration and open borders were meant to have worked.  After London people said ‘What can we learn from France’.  After Paris they said ‘What can we learn from the Swedish model.’  Nobody cites Sweden anymore.  In fact nobody looks to anyone else’s model anymore.  Because all of the ‘models’ failed.  So here we are – stuck with a problem our politicians have given us and to which they have no answers.  Perhaps all this pointless chatter is just what people do to distract themselves before they have to face up to that fact.

[Apech]

[Karl]

It seems like ISIS ( that's the ISLAMIC state unless anyone was confused about the affiliation with ISLAM) have smuggled 400 plus trained fighters into Europe amongst the refugees. I suspect that each one will recruit several 3 man cells so we might have upwards of 6000 jihadi nutters wandering around the EUs open borders-many of them homegrown Europeans with passports which will allow them to cross into Britain with minimum effort.

 

So, we now have a war with insurgents hidden amongst groups that our Governments are desperately attempting to convince us are totally innocent and unsupportive of the aims of the Muslim brotherhood. Even whilst we have seen TV documentaries with Muslim men and women actively campaigning in support of jihadhis. It is impossible to seperate the bad from the good as it is, yet our masters refuse to do anything to prevent the comings and goings of those who are active and those who support them.

 

The so called intelligence links with Europe have been found to be next to mythical. The intelligence is almost all one way from Britain. The ex MI6 boss believes leaving will significantly strengthen our security. Only the euro police commissioner is calling for us to remain- not a surprise seeing who pays his wages it would be one easy gig he would hate to lose. The only time in recent memory that there was any kind of inter euro/British tie up was when the parents of a young boy were arrested for trying to find medical help abroad which they had been refused in the UK.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Karl

[Apech]

It seems like ISIS ( that's the ISLAMIC state unless anyone was confused about the affiliation with ISLAM) have smuggled 400 plus trained fighters into Europe amongst the refugees. I suspect that each one will recruit several 3 man cells so we might have upwards of 6000 jihadi nutters wandering around the EUs open borders-many of them homegrown Europeans with passports which will allow them to cross into Britain with minimum effort.

 

So, we now have a war with insurgents hidden amongst groups that our Governments are desperately attempting to convince us are totally innocent and unsupportive of the aims of the Muslim brotherhood. Even whilst we have seen TV documentaries with Muslim men and women actively campaigning in support of jihadhis. It is impossible to seperate the bad from the good as it is, yet our masters refuse to do anything to prevent the comings and goings of those who are active and those who support them.

 

The so called intelligence links with Europe have been found to be next to mythical. The intelligence is almost all one way from Britain. The ex MI6 boss believes leaving will significantly strengthen our security. Only the euro police commissioner is calling for us to remain- not a surprise seeing who pays his wages it would be one easy gig he would hate to lose. The only time in recent memory that there was any kind of inter euro/British tie up was when the parents of a young boy were arrested for trying to find medical help abroad which they had been refused in the UK.

 

 

I hate to point out the obvious Karl, but these bombers were not new immigrants.  The London bombers were from Bradford were they not?  So you are conflating two different issues.  I agree the immigrant/refugee crisis has been an utter clusterfuck from beginning to end by the way.  But for me its not an in/out Brexit deal breaker.

[Chang]

I hate to point out the obvious Karl, but these bombers were not new immigrants.  The London bombers were from Bradford were they not?  So you are conflating two different issues.  I agree the immigrant/refugee crisis has been an utter clusterfuck from beginning to end by the way.  But for me its not an in/out Brexit deal breaker.

 

I hate to point out the obvious Apech but this is an ongoing "clusterfuck" situation which is exacerbated by the monumental incompetence of the European Super state; the "leaders" of which appear to have no solutions and whose actions simply aggravate an already hopeless situation. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by Chang

[Karl]

I hate to point out the obvious Karl, but these bombers were not new immigrants.  The London bombers were from Bradford were they not?  So you are conflating two different issues.  I agree the immigrant/refugee crisis has been an utter clusterfuck from beginning to end by the way.  But for me its not an in/out Brexit deal breaker.

 

As yet we haven't seen the organising Jihadhists who are behind the planning, supply and training of the recruits. This is not an ad hoc operation, it's got a sophisticated command/control, financing and logistics structure. Men are taken to training camps outside of Europe and then shipped back here. We have no control over who is coming and going as long as they have European passports. The alleged 400+ Isis fighters who have arrived under cover of the refugees are yet to make an appearance-although I'm under the impression that there are a couple who have already been involved in the attacks ? (Have to check that). Next it appears that the EU parliament wants to open its doors to Turkey, so we might just as well have no borders at all.

 

I have to say, though this is all a concern, it isn't my key reason for leaving which is economic and sovereign. We will always face threats, I just don't think we need to make it easy for the attackers to move about, train and obtain weaponry. However, it has to be weighed in the balance by everyone who is going to put an X in the box on referendum day.

[Chang]

When considering the European Super State and British membership thereof we cannot fail to consider Islam and the Islamic assault on Europe. This video will give a short but succinct insight into the Islamic mind set.

 

[Apech]

I hate to point out the obvious Apech but this is an ongoing "clusterfuck" situation which is exacerbated by the monumental incompetence of the European Super state; the "leaders" of which appear to have no solutions and whose actions simply aggravate an already hopeless situation. 

 

 

Yes exactly I agree.  The EU has been hopeless over this - that is exactly what I was saying - not sure why you felt the need to repeat.

[Apech]

As yet we haven't seen the organising Jihadhists who are behind the planning, supply and training of the recruits. This is not an ad hoc operation, it's got a sophisticated command/control, financing and logistics structure. Men are taken to training camps outside of Europe and then shipped back here. We have no control over who is coming and going as long as they have European passports. The alleged 400+ Isis fighters who have arrived under cover of the refugees are yet to make an appearance-although I'm under the impression that there are a couple who have already been involved in the attacks ? (Have to check that). Next it appears that the EU parliament wants to open its doors to Turkey, so we might just as well have no borders at all. I have to say, though this is all a concern, it isn't my key reason for leaving which is economic and sovereign. We will always face threats, I just don't think we need to make it easy for the attackers to move about, train and obtain weaponry. However, it has to be weighed in the balance by everyone who is going to put an X in the box on referendum day.

 

 

I completely agree that the Isis high commend (wherever they are) should be taken out.  Given there only 20 - 30,000 ISIS soldiers (we are told) and we hopefully know by now how they operate, how they fund themselves and so on - I am fairly confident that the combined forces of Nato and (possibly) Russia could destroy them in about two weeks.  The anaesthetic of political correctness is part of the problem - but really what makes you think this would be any different in or out of Europe.  Your Brexit solution is no solution.

[Chang]

I completely agree that the Isis high commend (wherever they are) should be taken out.  Given there only 20 - 30,000 ISIS soldiers (we are told) and we hopefully know by now how they operate, how they fund themselves and so on - I am fairly confident that the combined forces of Nato and (possibly) Russia could destroy them in about two weeks.  The anaesthetic of political correctness is part of the problem - but really what makes you think this would be any different in or out of Europe.  Your Brexit solution is no solution.

 

I really do hold you in the highest regard in your ability to analyse a given situation but in this case i fear that you have lost the plot.

 

Defeating ISIS would be a start but it will really only have a limited effect in the overall scheme of things. What we have to face (whether we like it or not and the Liberal mind finds this particularly hard to grasp) is that we are at war with Islam and not simply with islamists.

 

Defeating ISIS could be likened to defeating the military might of NAZI Germany but then leaving the NAZI party intact and running the country. No one wishes to face this reality and this is the tragedy.

[Apech]

I really do hold you in the highest regard in your ability to analyse a given situation but in this case i fear that you have lost the plot.

 

Defeating ISIS would be a start but it will really only have a limited effect in the overall scheme of things. What we have to face (whether we like it or not and the Liberal mind finds this particularly hard to grasp) is that we are at war with Islam and not simply with islamists.

 

Defeating ISIS could be likened to defeating the military might of NAZI Germany but then leaving the NAZI party intact and running the country. No one wishes to face this reality and this is the tragedy.

 

 

War with Islam - how do you see that working?  What's the strategy?

[Karl]

I completely agree that the Isis high commend (wherever they are) should be taken out.  Given there only 20 - 30,000 ISIS soldiers (we are told) and we hopefully know by now how they operate, how they fund themselves and so on - I am fairly confident that the combined forces of Nato and (possibly) Russia could destroy them in about two weeks.  The anaesthetic of political correctness is part of the problem - but really what makes you think this would be any different in or out of Europe.  Your Brexit solution is no solution.

 

I think it is, even though it's-in a sense-a side issue. Europe is incapable of a reasoned response. This is because it isn't and has never been a single country. The result is a response by committee. No country can mount a response if it is run by a bureaucratic comittee in which the members are unelected and represent diverse cultures, wealth and opinions. Instead they simply freeze and let the enemy walk in. They would rather appease than make a decision.

 

Brexit is not leaving Europe, it's strengthening Europe, by removing the problem which is causing the incapacity. This is applicable to both laws, security and wealth generation. The EU cannot ever work, there is no tinkering that will make it so, by the time they get themselves together the EU will be bankrupt, mired in social collapse and likely over run by an invader who walked right through the gates whilst the commissioners were sat around drinking tea and jawing.

 

It will be hard on us to break away because it will entail costs and effort, but it's no different to a young adult leaving its parents. Of course taking responsibility is tough. Of course setting up home, keeping a job, earning a living, staying healthy are suddenly down to the young adult, the parent isn't around to do that, but this is a Net positive for both parent and child. So it will be with the EU which will lose its cosy lunches, grand plans, decorating it's gardens and talking for months. It will suddenly be jerked back into life by seeing that eventually all its children are going to have to leave.

 

It is far harder for ISIS to attack sovereign countries that can react without a mothers meeting. It's far harder to get past border posts and countries that are intent on security and defence.

 

I don't see it as leaving Europe, I see it as the catalyst for making it stronger, safer and wealthier. I see that someone must show the way before it's too late and we have-as an Island-the best opportunity to guide the others. Playtime is over, things are getting worse in all areas, somebody must take the reins.

 

 

[Karl]

War with Islam - how do you see that working?  What's the strategy?

 

Get rid of the EU, close the borders and end the free passage of people.

Cut off finance to ISIS by ending all trade with the Saudi states and Turkey (who's president is now acting akin to Hitler).

Find and destroy ISIS on the ground in the Middle East-any country that continues funding or supplying fighters to be regarded as an enemy and harsh sanctions imposed.

Stop trying to impose democracy and freedom on the Middle East-cease and desist Neo con and corporate action.

[Chang]

War with Islam - how do you see that working?  What's the strategy?

 

Before we consider stratagy we have to admit that Islam is the enemy. Unfortunately I see no sign of that happening anytime soon.

 

Once we do recognise the problem for what it is the first step in a strategy for Britain would be to step out of the European Super state and take steps to protect our borders. Prevent unlimited entry of Islamic immigrants and begin to deport (wherever possible) those migrants who prove themselves enemies of our state and values.

 

This would be a hard and unpleasant business and would doubtless have the liberal elite mewling and singing kumbaya but the alternative - of carrying on as we are doing will lead only to the doom of ourselves and our lifestyle.

[zerostao]

Does Chang wish for a Donald of Britain ?

[Karl]

I don't think you grasp the proble Zero. It doesn't matter who we have, we aren't in control of anything, the EU is. We are run from Brussels by unelected bureaucrats which essentially means Britains fate is essentially decided by a country such as Romania or Lithuania.

 

What we want is our own country so we can control who comes and goes, who we wish to trade with and how we should conduct defence policy.

[Apech]

Get rid of the EU, close the borders and end the free passage of people. Cut off finance to ISIS by ending all trade with the Saudi states and Turkey (who's president is now acting akin to Hitler). Find and destroy ISIS on the ground in the Middle East-any country that continues funding or supplying fighters to be regarded as an enemy and harsh sanctions imposed. Stop trying to impose democracy and freedom on the Middle East-cease and desist Neo con and corporate action.

 

 

that's not a war on Islam.

[Apech]

Before we consider stratagy we have to admit that Islam is the enemy. Unfortunately I see no sign of that happening anytime soon.

 

Once we do recognise the problem for what it is the first step in a strategy for Britain would be to step out of the European Super state and take steps to protect our borders. Prevent unlimited entry of Islamic immigrants and begin to deport (wherever possible) those migrants who prove themselves enemies of our state and values.

 

This would be a hard and unpleasant business and would doubtless have the liberal elite mewling and singing kumbaya but the alternative - of carrying on as we are doing will lead only to the doom of ourselves and our lifestyle.

 

 

That's not a war on Islam either.

[Chang]

That's not a war on Islam either.

 

You are being deliberately pedantic ( not for the first time ). It is you are are talking of war. I am talking about protecting ourselves, our country and our lifestyle from a barbaric and incursive religion.

 

But before we talk of war we have to admit that we have an enemy.

 

Let me repeat that this has not yet been admitted by the Liberal Elite who run the European Super State. It has not even been admitted by you.

 

So let me once more ask the question. Is the enemy the Islamist or Islam?

Edited March 24, 2016 by Chang

[Apech]

You are being deliberately pedantic ( not for the first time ). It is you are are talking of war. I am talking about protecting ourselves, our country and our lifestyle from a barbaric and incursive religion.

 

But before we talk of war we have to admit that we have an enemy.

 

Let me repeat that this has not yet been admitted by the Liberal Elite who run the European Super State. It has not even been admitted by you.

 

So let me once more ask the question. Is the enemy the Islamist or Islam?

 

 

Islamist is a made up word which is more or less meaningless.  Islam is a world religion of about (I think) 1.6 billion people.  You said we are at war with Islam - so you need to explain what you mean before I can either agree or disagree with you.  Otherwise it's as meaningless as 'war on terror' ... or even worse according to Hollande after Paris and the Belgian PM (who may or may not be called Plastique Bertrand) just 'we are at war' ... without even saying with whom.

[Karl]

that's not a war on Islam.

 

I don't think we can have a war on Islam I agree with you on that as its equivalent to 'the war on terror'. We have to go to war with Isis, ISIL, AQ , ANF and anyone supporting them. We had better get to it swiftly and put Europe in a war footing.

[Karl]

You are being deliberately pedantic ( not for the first time ). It is you are are talking of war. I am talking about protecting ourselves, our country and our lifestyle from a barbaric and incursive religion.

 

But before we talk of war we have to admit that we have an enemy.

 

Let me repeat that this has not yet been admitted by the Liberal Elite who run the European Super State. It has not even been admitted by you.

 

So let me once more ask the question. Is the enemy the Islamist or Islam?

 

That's secondary and it really means an entire philosophical change to occur in order that we shed mysticism completely. Whilst we agree with portions of it, we can't get rid of it.

[Chang]

Islamist is a made up word which is more or less meaningless.  Islam is a world religion of about (I think) 1.6 billion people.  You said we are at war with Islam - so you need to explain what you mean before I can either agree or disagree with you.  Otherwise it's as meaningless as 'war on terror' ... or even worse according to Hollande after Paris and the Belgian PM (who may or may not be called Plastique Bertrand) just 'we are at war' ... without even saying with whom.

 

Islamism, also known as Political Islam (Arabic: إسلام سياسي‎ islām siyāsī), is an Islamic revival movement often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt "to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life."

Islamist, an adherent of Islamism.

 

You really should have gone into politics Apech as your ability to dissemble would have taken you far.

 

I do not doubt for one moment that you fully understand my meaning when i ask whether the enemy is the Islamist or islam and I can well understand your reluctance to answer this question, with your roots so well embedded in both Socialism and Buddhism. I also suspect that it is your "Ism's" that will lead you to vote to remain in the E.U. though you will deny this vehemently.

 

I am away training over Easter and so will not be returning to the site until Tuesday. By then this discussion will have moved on but the underlying situation will remain the same.

 

Best wishes Chaps.

[Apech]

 

Islamism, also known as Political Islam (Arabic: إسلام سياسي‎ islām siyāsī), is an Islamic revival movement often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt "to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life."

Islamist, an adherent of Islamism.

 

You really should have gone into politics Apech as your ability to dissemble would have taken you far.

 

I do not doubt for one moment that you fully understand my meaning when i ask whether the enemy is the Islamist or islam and I can well understand your reluctance to answer this question, with your roots so well embedded in both Socialism and Buddhism. I also suspect that it is your "Ism's" that will lead you to vote to remain in the E.U. though you will deny this vehemently.

 

I am away training over Easter and so will not be returning to the site until Tuesday. By then this discussion will have moved on but the underlying situation will remain the same.

 

Best wishes Chaps.

 

 

Slightly unpleasant ... but all the same best wishes to you.

[zerostao]

I don't think you grasp the proble Zero. It doesn't matter who we have, we aren't in control of anything, the EU is. We are run from Brussels by unelected bureaucrats which essentially means Britains fate is essentially decided by a country such as Romania or Lithuania. What we want is our own country so we can control who comes and goes, who we wish to trade with and how we should conduct defence policy.

yeah, you got me on this one. really

i guess with many things-one does not know what they had until they lost it---

like a friend or a country or safety

if you happen to get yours back

try and not give it away again

i am pullin' for ya'll