Nungali Posted February 27, 2016 Well , after the good move a few months back, of me and one of the guys ( who trains with me away from instructor ) just dropping what we have been doing into the middle of the class and in front of instructor .... and him going " Where have you been training ? .... Where did you learn that ? ? ? " ( aside from the fact we have been doing bits of that for a while now and he happens to miss it, look away, or 'correct us ' - sometimes into a crazy dangerous move ! or waved a dismissive hand ) he finally actually watched and took it in ... all good. and said "We will use these moves in what we teach now . But where did they come from . " ( , they are mostly extensions and combinations of what he teaches anyway ... with an addition of 'nous' ) NOW he comes up with " Let's make a curriculum , a book, and standardise everything , starting with the basic ones I taught you and working the way up to more complex and number each one and you (me - Nungali ) write it all down, describe it and number it . " Great ... what me ! ? Now there is a challenge, how the hell do I do that. ??? Especially when in training he goes, "Attack me " and I say how or anything ? Head ! What ... kiratsuki ... diajodan ... ? I dont know what those mean, just attack my head . I do .. with Kiratsuki , deflect his thrust and slide my blade (wooden) up his face . Him ... no , do it this way ( ie. the way he can easily counter and kill me ! ) Instructors ! I mean, he is great at what he does , empty hand , but does not a great teacher make. So how do I even write number 1 (attack daijordan) and the counter .... " No. 2 - do a ' shuffle to offside while raising the sword handle first and make the blade extend out to an angle of .... " I even said ; Well ...... you give it a name then . he said .... "that thing that we do that we are going to call No 2. Okay, I will say, do a number 2 Him: "But they won't know what it is ...." Aye i aye i yii ! I have to work on it later today . I gave up the idea of using 'correct japanese terms' as even then different people have different interpretations of what that means , and it varies over different sword schools. My logic is, if we are going to make an adaption of a term .... number 1 ... seems to make sense . They use a similar system in Filipino Arnis , body targets are numbered, techniques are numbered, defenses and positions moved to are numbered (on the floor around you ) .... so instructor can say; " You attack with a 2 ... and you move to position 5 and counter with a 7. " Once the basics are learned its soooo much easier than a string of Japanese ( often to be followed by an English correction of , " No but on this side with an upward motion and .... " ) All I can come up with is something like ; 1. Attack with DaiJodan * (and for the more complex ones, add a line of description ) 15. Kiratsuki + ( surge forward with sword in on-guard position to cut the face ) then at the bottom of the first 10 add the notes * stepping forward cut down and into the top of the head as showed how by the instructor . + 'send' the sword first, follow it, deflect any thrusts while entering, strike and slice up the face to the forehead ... as showed how by the instructor . (that is just use the description as a memory trigger .... and put the rest back on him ) ... oh yeah, he wanted to make one of them, this silly one we dont like, ( but he gets away with doing it due to 'instructor syndrome' ) I had enough of that, so when he demonstrated it for one move for me to add today , we did it 5 times .... and I cut him across the belly 5 times (harder each time ) ... and he said "I think we will drop that one " yes ! I saw these little illustrations Bruce Lee used to add to his written descriptions, he was great at them ... just a few quick lines to make up the figures but expressive able to be understood and simple - pretty good at it he was. stuff like this : but I cant draw. I considered little pics, but I dont have the technology ( bad phone and laptop full o bugs ) I guess I need 2 others, a demonstrator and a photographer, who can stick them in a form I can use, and then word process it. cant think of any other solutions 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted February 27, 2016 In any discipline, the struggle to find a way to teach what you have come to understand to those who genuinely want to learn is the best way to truly understand it yourself. Embrace this teaching opportunity as your deepest learning opportunity, my friend -- it is a gift to you. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted February 27, 2016 Thanks ... I feel fine teaching physically, in person ... and teacher allows me to, even with him at times , so he is great in that regard . Its this getting it down in a written form ... when they dont want to use technical terms (nor understand them ) . Anyway ... after 5 or 6 years of it , a period away in frustration, a return, it's a breakthrough ! Oh no ..... I just realised what it is I have to learn .... how to take pics and get them onto my MS word docs - and then be able to reopen them without the computer stalling or .... < slump > 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 27, 2016 Yes Nungali, your project is one hellova project. But there are people who have the proper equipment to do such things so we know it can be done. The question is, will you be able to get the needed equipment and learn how to use it in order to get the end product you want? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted February 27, 2016 Draft some kid to be your technical manager so you can focus on creative content. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted February 27, 2016 (edited) Great graphics. Sometimes you see people drawing a large + under the person so its easier to see where the feet are and how they move. I liked the loose flowing figures from Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere might serve as good samples of martial drawing. If you use photos, I wonder if there'd be any advantage to highly 'posterizing' them, ie find a program/app that blends the colors (the filter is often called 'posterize') so the colors are less distinct, more posterlike. Note this might look better depending on the colors the attacker and defender wear, plus a plain very neutral background. In Ki-Aikido we had weapon kata's done singly, We also had Taigi's two person kata's, where there was an attacker and defender going through a set of moves to demonstrate the principle. They'd last 20 seconds to a minute. They were for weapons and hand to hand. Hand to hand they'd often show several defenses for the same attack. So they were kata's without the imaginary attacker. Edited February 27, 2016 by thelerner 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted February 27, 2016 I completely agree that pictures (whether drawings or photos) are invaluable in a martial arts manual - second only to videos. So why not put a few videos out there on Youtube? For all the students and your TDB friends watch and comment on ! Anyway, trying to decipher how to perform a complex MA technique done from a text alone is generally very difficult ("turn 90°" - "Yeah, in what direction, please?" And: "How on earth did the dude suddenly teleport to the other side of the opponent? Etc), so yes, clear pictures should be included in any case - and plenty of them, for that matter. (Showing all the different developments of a technique on its way from A to B in Virgon detail). But there will still be the necessity to explain some further technical details that are not obvious from the pictures ("while you turn front foot ans outwards to a 45° angle until they hurt, exhale sharply with a sound that sounds like a broken pressure cooker"). So it will be surely a lot of work if you want to do it well, but once you're done you will have ascended to a higher level as a martial artist (or at least they should award you the next dan). Oh, and don't forget to offer a copy or two of your hard-won manual on Creatopia or Lulu Press. Good luck - and do keep us posted! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted February 27, 2016 Yes Nungali, your project is one hellova project. But there are people who have the proper equipment to do such things so we know it can be done. The question is, will you be able to get the needed equipment and learn how to use it in order to get the end product you want? Well, after more thought, what is required is a collation of techniques that are being taught personally. Its not something to learn out of a book, so no pictures are really necessary ( I ducked that one ) . At least not a this stage. Maybe 1 or 2 as 'memory triggers'. But another issue has arisen; Its crazy just to list these complex (relatively, for the beginner) moves, there is a whole intro I need to work on in a similar way ; BASICS .... Footwork, Stance, Stepping, Distance, Draw and sheath, Etiquette, Cuts, Blocks and deflections, Control and focus ..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted February 27, 2016 Draft some kid to be your technical manager so you can focus on creative content. ha ha ha haarrrr ! Some kid; " Hey Mister , I want to learn THAT ! Oooo ...sword fighting ! ( or , Father: " I want you to teach my boy ." ) Me; " Okay, first of all .... " Some Kid; " Nah .... I 'll just watch it on youtube and pretend thats me . " ( Also - Some guy ( who is ready for it, maybe a black belt with enough background knowledge) ; " I'd love to train... but I have my own classes to attend, and if I go somewhere else .... " Senior instructor from another style (whispers) " Come around at 11 am ... park around the back and come in the back door, show me some of those moves and I will slip you $50 ... ummm, dont tell anyone, ok ? " ('strue, happened once ! ) ..................... sneak in the back way ...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted February 27, 2016 Well, after more thought, what is required is a collation of techniques that are being taught personally. Its not something to learn out of a book, so no pictures are really necessary ( I ducked that one ) . At least not a this stage. Maybe 1 or 2 as 'memory triggers'. But another issue has arisen; Its crazy just to list these complex (relatively, for the beginner) moves, there is a whole intro I need to work on in a similar way ; BASICS .... Footwork, Stance, Stepping, Distance, Draw and sheath, Etiquette, Cuts, Blocks and deflections, Control and focus ..... Yes, excellent, Nungali. Always start with the kihon-waza (I take it your your/your master's style isn't so thoroughly documented as Shotokan, so it will be a really good idea to record it thoroughly). And please be so explicit that, hypothetically, an extraordinarily gifted martial artist could learn your style from scratch with your manual alone. Then you will have done the best job you could have. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted February 27, 2016 I completely agree that pictures (whether drawings or photos) are invaluable in a martial arts manual - second only to videos. So why not put a few videos out there on Youtube? For all the students and your TDB friends watch and comment on ! Dude says he cant take a pic and insert it into MS doc Other dude suggests he make a video and stick it on youtube ! As I said, it wont be a 'manual' as such, more a reference guide and 'mnemonic' to personal instruction. Anyway, trying to decipher how to perform a complex MA technique done from a text alone is generally very difficult ("turn 90°" - "Yeah, in what direction, please?" And: "How on earth did the dude suddenly teleport to the other side of the opponent? Etc) Yep. My old MA books with pics are often undecipherable .... years later (many) with the practical experience, now I look at those pics and finally get them, I am able to undersatand the transition from one photo to the next . A giff of each technique would be better ..... I found some of them, but when I printed them out with the manual ,,,, they were not moving anymore ? ( I told you I was hopeless at IT ) , so yes, clear pictures should be included in any case - and plenty of them, for that matter. (Showing all the different developments of a technique on its way from A to B in Virgon detail). But there will still be the necessity to explain some further technical details that are not obvious from the pictures ("while you turn front foot ans outwards to a 45° angle until they hurt, exhale sharply with a sound that sounds like a broken pressure cooker"). So it will be surely a lot of work if you want to do it well, but once you're done you will have ascended to a higher level as a martial artist (or at least they should award you the next dan). Ummmmm .... errrrr ..... I am a white belt . I have managed to avoid a grading in over 20 years ! (Must be a record ) ... except in Aikido when they sprung one on me , that was the worst example of 'grading dynamic' I ever witnessed ! Over the last years with MSSR (not Aikido ) , originally, with Mr Nishihira , he didnt work like that. he had no 'club', no sign out the front, rolled up his slacks, took of his shirt and trained like that. The only full, ghee and belt dressing I saw was for group photos and special occasions. people would say "Should I put my gi on?" and he would say "if you want to." Any gradings ( no colours just wait until black, or any subsequent dan, would be 'awarded' by , one day he would say to a person , after observing them " Now you are a black belt." ... Also no charge, for lessons or a belt ( but you would get roped into helping in the kitchen, he ran a catering business ; train, make sushi , train , make sushi, train .... ) He may not have had a school as such ... but many heads of schools sought him out and came for instruction . Oh, and don't forget to offer a copy or two of your hard-won manual on Creatopia or Lulu Press. Nah ... its not a manual, more a curriculum and will only be issued to people getting personal instruction ... however, if you ever want to fly over here .... ( train , make sushi, train, mow Nungali's lawn, train, clean the gutters, train, dig out the road drains .... ) Good luck - and do keep us posted! Thanks ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted February 27, 2016 (edited) Yes, excellent, Nungali. Always start with the kihon-waza (I take it your your/your master's style isn't so thoroughly documented as Shotokan, so it will be a really good idea to record it thoroughly). No way could I document 'masters style' ... no way ! Mr Nishihira never trained weapons ... his teacher did, and had well known teachers himself . Mr Nishihira said he was barely up to Mr Sokken's knee, in MA knowledge, and MSSR is a family stype ( the master is a family descendent going back to ' Bushi Matsamura (Sokken) ' Mr Nishihira had no descendent to teach - all gone now. No more 'Seito' Shorin Ryu ... but all other sorts are around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohan_S%C5%8Dken Ted Lange learnt weaponry from Mr Soken ( a Matsumura descendant ) , my instructor learnt weaponry from Ted ( especially Soken sai and Soken kama Katas 1, 2 and 3, and the Chichen Bo katas ) and an aikido swordsman he used to train with. Then after Mr Soken passed on both Ted and my instructor accepted Mr Nishihira as Sokens appointed heir, and continued studying 'empty hand' ( originally 'Chinese hand' ) with Mr Nishihira. I learnt weaponry from ; Sikiran , Aki-kai and my instructor. They 2 guys I train with outside of class have back grounds in Tai chi ( and tai chi sword) and Krav Magra ( from being in Israeli Army ... but their weapons were hand gun and 'rifle'/bayonet. ) So its a mix of all that ..... I call it 'Dodgy-ryu'. My view is the same as Lee's ... keep what is useful, discard what does not work to your advantage. What 'works' can be judged by trial ..... Any after that, I have to start on the Jo ... same formular Then I can start getting down the Jo Vs Bokken ones. ( I 'borrowed' some from Aiki-kai ) And please be so explicit that, hypothetically, an extraordinarily gifted martial artist could learn your style from scratch with your manual alone. Then you will have done the best job you could have. Edited February 27, 2016 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted February 27, 2016 (edited) I found this the other day , it might help some to understand the type of Shorin-ryu and other styles of Okinawan 'karate' ... developed from 'Okinawan wrestling' (basically, anything goes ) and 'Chinese hand' combined.(They tend not to spar .... 'rules' ? ! ? ! and do not 'fight' nowadays - I asked why and was told " people get hurt bad, or you get hurt, then you can get into trouble of police and court ... also, if its a friend and you hurt him, you feel bad, then you have to pay his housekeeping and rent and things until he recovers."Me; " You do that ? ""Of course ! if its a friend, and you were responsible ! " )Here are some techniques formally displayed in kata ... with their application in modern day MMA (but some are missing as MMA has rules too and many of the techniques are banned .... thus changing the whole way of fighting, but this is a pretty good comparison ; Edited February 27, 2016 by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted February 27, 2016 No way could I document 'masters style' ... no way ! Alright, best you can do then is to focus on capturing the essential principles of the style rather than particular techniques which tend to be modified by each instructor and practitioner anyway. Your manual may actually still be of some interest to the historian or, especially, advanced martial artist who will happen to find it buried in hundreds of years in the Australian desert (buried by a cataclysmic sandstorm sweeping over Australia ). Maybe it will get knows as the Nungalian Bubishi? And be free to come up with your Nungali-ryu, as long as it retains your master's time-honoured principles. I might even want to take a look at it. Perhaps master and pass on some rare historic kata though? Mr Nishihira never trained weapons ... his teacher did, and had well known teachers himself . Mr Nishihira said he was barely up to Mr Sokken's knee, in MA knowledge, and MSSR is a family stype ( the master is a family descendent going back to ' Bushi Matsamura (Sokken) ' Mr Nishihira had no descendent to teach - all gone now. No more 'Seito' Shorin Ryu ... but all other sorts are around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohan_S%C5%8Dken Ted Lange learnt weaponry from Mr Soken ( a Matsumura descendant ) , my instructor learnt weaponry from Ted ( especially Soken sai and Soken kama Katas 1, 2 and 3, and the Chichen Bo katas ) and an aikido swordsman he used to train with. Then after Mr Soken passed on both Ted and my instructor accepted Mr Nishihira as Sokens appointed heir, and continued studying 'empty hand' ( originally 'Chinese hand' ) with Mr Nishihira. I learnt weaponry from ; Sikiran , Aki-kai and my instructor. They 2 guys I train with outside of class have back grounds in Tai chi ( and tai chi sword) and Krav Magra ( from being in Israeli Army ... but their weapons were hand gun and 'rifle'/bayonet. ) So its a mix of all that ..... I call it 'Dodgy-ryu'. My view is the same as Lee's ... keep what is useful, discard what does not work to your advantage. What 'works' can be judged by trial ..... I certainly agree with this philosophy, Mr. Lee. Any after that, I have to start on the Jo ... same formular Then I can start getting down the Jo Vs Bokken ones. ( I 'borrowed' some from Aiki-kai ) Boah, that's way too many videos to watch now, do you have any idea how late it is in my area of the globe? But I will do my best to watch and comment on them later. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted February 27, 2016 Alright, best you can do then is to focus on capturing the essential principles of the style rather than particular techniques which tend to be modified by each instructor and practitioner anyway. Your manual may actually still be of some interest to the historian or, especially, advanced martial artist who will happen to find it buried in hundreds of years in the Australian desert (buried by a cataclysmic sandstorm sweeping over Australia ). Maybe it will get knows as the Nungalian Bubishi? or 'The Nungali Bullshiti ' ( the Hndbook of Dodgy-Ryu ) And be free to come up with your Nungali-ryu, as long as it retains your master's time-honoured principles. He taught different to each person and encouraged them to take what suited them best. basic principles seem to be ; (strike first if you can) , evade while deflecting attacks with a 'sting' , and moving to a better position, deliver a or some 'distracting' techniques (like an arm break or an eye gouge) , take down and finish with a strong technique . Besides, I am now physically incapable of most of it .... some of master's techniques include; fighting from a low squat position, rising from a low squat with a roundhouse kick to ribs then turning out and escaping - all in one move, double flying roundhouse, one a feint to one side, the other coming in as he lands, to the knee ( that one put a guy in hospital ! ) .... mid roll, taking off his wooden clog and 'frisbeeing ' it into opponent's face ( I can use that .... with a rubber crock, launching it with a kick ) . I might even want to take a look at it. Perhaps master and pass on some rare historic kata though? I certainly agree with this philosophy, Mr. Lee. Boah, that's way too many videos to watch now, do you have any idea how late it is in my area of the globe? But I will do my best to watch and comment on them later. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
