Individual will, reality creation and miracles

[Nikolai1]

When we exercise our will power we are imagining a future reality.  We want scenario x to happen, and we will use our will in order to shape events and make it happen.

 

But there is another way of imagining future reality which doesn't involve what we think of as the will.  This is when we predict something about the future, but the prediction is of an event that we imagine we have no control over.  For example, I desire to start playing tennis in the evening but at the moment it is still too dark.  In three weeks the hour will change and eveining tennis will become possible, exactly as I wish.  

 

In the tennis scenario I desire an outcome and confidently predict it will happen, and yet I do not suppose that I will the event because I imagine that it is out of my control.

 

I propose that spiritual development unites these two kinds of desires into the same thing.  In other words, what we will to happen is also what we predict will happen.  Or to put it another way, we more and more find ourselves wanting those things that will certainly happen.

 

This doesn't appear at first like personal creation of reality.  It seems like nothing other than the realistic adjustment of our desires to the natural order of things, a philsophy not unlike ancient stoicism.

 

But I propose that we can find ourselves both wanting and predicting certain events that may be completely at odds with what normally happens - i.e. the miracle.  It is not exactly correct to say that we create the miracle; it is more correct to say that we become incapable of wanting something that won't happen.  Therefore our will is also a prediction.  Any dichotomy between our inner will and outer constraint has totally broken down and we are left with a mode of living that transcends both.  This is how I understand wu wei.

 

The miracle is therefore not a miracle to the wu wei mindset.  It is only a miracle to the person who did not see it coming and sees only its deviance from normal events.  The sage is hesitant to claim authorship of the miracle, and yet at the same time shall recognise that the event is beautiful, auspicious, totally unexpected and would have been impossible without his conscious involvement.

 

Why then do miracles happen? The miracle is the sudden appearance in the everyday world of the harmony that is already above the world.  The sage, who has been able to adjust his will to that of the world partakes of that harmony and is therefore able to introduce it into the world.  He has become conscious of the harmony, and becoming conscious of it is the guarantee that it will happen.

 

To be unconscious of the harmony it to have desires that you believe can't happen.  In order to gain the harmony, either stop having the desires or stop disbelieving that your will is separate to the natural order of things.

[Karl]

We don't create reality Nikolai. We can choose to act in certain ways but we cannot change absolutes. There are no 'miracles', there are cause and effects.

[Nikolai1]

We don't create reality Nikolai. We can choose to act in certain ways but we cannot change absolutes. There are no 'miracles', there are cause and effects.

How do you define wu wei?

[Karl]

How do you define wu wei?

 

I don't.

[Nikolai1]

I don't.

Perhaps the most important concept in Chinese thought, and you don't even know what it might mean! Why are you on a Daoist forum again?

[Marblehead]

I'm going to try to stay out of this one.

[Karl]

Perhaps the most important concept in Chinese thought, and you don't even know what it might mean! Why are you on a Daoist forum again?

 

You mean what you think it means ? Your posts don't exactly show that you follow the Daoist tradition. It seems you are interpreting it and adding other philosophies as you see fit. I would say you are no more of a Daoist than I am-so why are you here ?

 

If it's acceptable for you to make these interpretations then it's perfectly acceptable for me to refute them.

[Karl]

I'm going to try to stay out of this one.

 

You shouldn't because it seems to me that you actually follow the Dao and your criticism of Nickolai's ever evolving interpretation would be very relevant.

[Nikolai1]

Karl why don't you explain how you understand wu wei - I'm interested! Having studied Chinese philsophy for twenty years, I do understand that there are multiple views on this.  What is yours?  

[Karl]

Karl why don't you explain how you understand wu wei - I'm interested! Having studied Chinese philsophy for twenty years, I do understand that there are multiple views on this.  What is yours?  

 

Action less action.

 

 

[Marblehead]

You shouldn't because it seems to me that you actually follow the Dao and your criticism of Nickolai's ever evolving interpretation would be very relevant.

Well, I may be drawn in as I just approved a membership request and they said that they were interested in this thread.

 

It should already be a given that I do not believe in miracles.

 

But Nikolai1 did bring about an interesting perspective regarding wu wei.

 

I'll watch and decide if and when to get involved.

[Karl]

Well, I may be drawn in as I just approved a membership request and they said that they were interested in this thread.

 

It should already be a given that I do not believe in miracles.

 

But Nikolai1 did bring about an interesting perspective regarding wu wei.

 

I'll watch and decide if and when to get involved.

 

The problem is that Wu Wei will inevitably require interpretation and so those who cant understand will continually seek ways in which to make it conform to other philosophies and new age thinking with which they are comfortable. That's the nature of human reason and why there are Koans. It clearly means you cannot make sense of it and therefore you must simply accept it.

[Creal]

Is there a concept of 'miracle' in taoism? I was under the impression that the concept of miracle was quite occidental, but I must be wrong. However, it can be interesting to explore the difference between the european conceptual history of miracles and the supposedly(?) similar concept of miracle in other traditions.

 

When we say: 'I do not believe in miracles', obviously we rely on a certain definition of what a miracle is. I would rather phrase: 'What can a miracle be in order for it to reflect a singularity that might be active in the world without being always acknowledged by common sense or the scientific discourse.

 

I think Heidegger refers to the question of will as being adjacent to technology. So if we are talking about 'action without will', we might be talking about agency without a technique. But meditation for example is a form of technique, isn't it? And even desire, if repeated and sustained in the form of a prayer, is a form of proto-technique of language, or is is not?

 

I don't know anything about the concept of wu wei, but I am not sure we need to dismiss volition or will to attain levels of co-incidence or co-creation with the Flow (I prefer to call it Creal).

Edited March 2, 2016 by Creal

[Karl]

A miracle, by definition is a supernatural event.

 

If Wei Wu is action less action, or as described 'non doing' or 'effortless flow', then there is a logical contradiction (from my objectivist perspective of course). The only way to resolve the contradiction is to either accept that one exists, but that it is unfathomanable-which is why the Tao cannot be known, or to intellectualise the contradiction by an increasingly complex web of logical fallacies, in an attempt to complete an impossible equation.

 

The idea of a Koan is to present something that appears, on the surface to have a solution, but doesn't. The person attempting the Koan eventually must accept that it is consciously beyond solution and therefore that one must stop trying to do this on an intellectual level.

 

This is no different to any other kind of mysticism which says either; knowledge in intrinsic, or it is impossible to know objectively. Either some divine essence is leading us which is beyond our understanding, or we must take a pragmatic approach to life because nothing is certain. Both mean essentially the same thing, which is to abandon reason and simply go with the flow.

 

A miracle is therefore a corollary. For the religious it is proof of the divine omniscient being, for the mystic pragmatist it is the proof that man can create whatever future he wishes, but that he cannot exactly wish it.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Karl

[Michael Sternbach]

I have a practice of visualizing my wishes and goals in a relaxed state of mind. This helped me to bring them into manifestation many, many times, and sometimes quite against the odds.

 

Is this the definition of a miracle - something desired happening against the odds? Or how would you define it? How unlikely does it have to be in order to count as a miracle?

 

Anyway, I found that key for this to happen is my strong intention. But also, the right moment will facilitate the manifestation (sometimes miracles take a little longer. LOL!)

[Karl]

I have a practice of visualizing my wishes and goals in a relaxed state of mind. This helped me to bring them into manifestation many, many times, and sometimes quite against the odds.

Is this the definition of a miracle - something desired happening against the odds? Or how would you define it? How unlikely does it have to be in order to count as a miracle?

Anyway, I found that key for this to happen is my strong intention. But also, the right moment will facilitate the manifestation (sometimes miracles take a little longer. LOL!)

 

'Against the odds' and miracles are very different.

 

From an objectivist view there is no such thing as miracles. It would mean something that couldn't happen that did. A pragmatist will of course say that what can't be done today can be done tomorrow. The religious mysticist will offer no proof, or fact.

 

Visualising and planning are entirely rational things. They help to focus on goals.

 

We used to do this in NLP. The important part was always to visualise something that was possible. For instance, if you are an 80 year old with severe health problems, then, the likelihood of achieving a Gold medal in the 100m Olympic sprint isn't going to happen. Something more moderate is possible though. Perhaps running a mile after struggling to walk to the shops.

 

 

[Nikolai1]

Hi Creal

 

Is there a concept of 'miracle' in taoism? I was under the impression that the concept of miracle was quite occidental, but I must be wrong.

Obviously the magic has been a major part of Daoism since time immemorial.  Crowley defined magic as 'the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will', so I guess the results of magic are in the same ballpark as miracles as both are supernatural methods.

 

I would rather phrase: 'What can a miracle be in order for it to reflect a singularity that might be active in the world without being always acknowledged by common sense or the scientific discourse.

Yes, and the question is: can a person wish for or predict events that are not acknowledged by common sense.  I say they can, and I consider wu wei in its highest form to be doing this all the time.  My reasoning is thus:

 

When a person considers themselves to be separate from a world 'out there' he imagines that the world has its own laws of cause and effect and the person must adapt their technologies (in the Heideggerian sense) to them on order to fulfil his will.

 

With a spiritual awakening the person comes to understand that there is no separate world 'out there'.  What the world is and what he is are the same.  He therefore ceases to experience the 'frustrated will', he does not encounter a world to which his technologies are not equal.  The notion of the will, and the notion of a causal realm separate to his will completely breaks down.

 

What is left is a state that blends individual will with the flow of external events.  To will and to predict become one and the same thing.  All that we can say is that we are tune with the flow - neither willing things nor not willing things satisfactorily describe this state.  But the term wu wei fits it very well.

 

I don't know anything about the concept of wu wei, but I am not sure we need to dismiss volition or will to attain levels of co-incidence or co-creation with the Flow (I prefer to call it Creal).

As I hope I've made clear, the will is not dismissed - only transcended.  I like this term Creal a lot actually because it captures well what I'm trying to say.  Our world is both created and real in its own right...yes, the Creal world!

[Creal]

To will and to predict become one and the same thing.  

 

This resonates with the story of Merlin according to Boron: Merlin can predict the future and that is the science of God. He also knows the past and that is the science of the devil.

 

Our world is both created and real in its own right...yes, the Creal world!

 

Life is not cruel, but Creal!

http://crealisme.hautetfort.com/archive/2011/09/05/life-as-creal.html

[Nikolai1]

Hi Michael

 

I have a practice of visualizing my wishes and goals in a relaxed state of mind. This helped me to bring them into manifestation many, many times, and sometimes quite against the odds.

The whole practise I'm talking about simply isn't possible while we are in the dualistic mode of being - where we believe very strongly in our individuality.  Your relaxation, I would say, is the ability to move into non-dual being where our very thoughts are natural and valid events in the flow and we can see and believe that.

 

When we are in the dual mode, our thoughts are private and insubstantial.  In the non-dual mode our thoughts are like sunshine and warmth on the germinating seed.

 

Is this the definition of a miracle - something desired happening against the odds? Or how would you define it? How unlikely does it have to be in order to count as a miracle?

Yes good question.  I think the more we dwell on this we more we realise that all our happenings result by the same process you described.  So the miracle and the mundane are, and always were, one and the same thing.  But when we believe in our duality we disbelieve that our will can flout the laws of nature.

[Marblehead]

Perhaps running a mile after struggling to walk to the shops.

Or unzipping your pants "before" taking a leak.

[Michael Sternbach]

'Against the odds' and miracles are very different. From an objectivist view there is no such thing as miracles. It would mean something that couldn't happen that did.

 

I don't believe in that. But I do believe that more is possible than what is acknowledged by academic science. Considerably more.

 

A pragmatist will of course say that what can't be done today can be done tomorrow. The religious mysticist will offer no proof, or fact.

 

Visualising and planning are entirely rational things. They help to focus on goals. We used to do this in NLP. The important part was always to visualise something that was possible. For instance, if you are an 80 year old with severe health problems, then, the likelihood of achieving a Gold medal in the 100m Olympic sprint isn't going to happen. Something more moderate is possible though. Perhaps running a mile after struggling to walk to the shops.

 

Right, visualization will facilitate the occurrence of the closest analogy to its subject that is accessible. As you have explained well, some manifestations are much more unlikely than others. However, the more skilled a "magician", the more improbable the events that they are able to draw into manifestation.

 

Another thing where you and I probably won't agree with each other is that, due to the interconnectedness of everything, a magician can influence things and events that are seemingly separate from them.

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Michael

 

The whole practise I'm talking about simply isn't possible while we are in the dualistic mode of being - where we believe very strongly in our individuality.  Your relaxation, I would say, is the ability to move into non-dual being where our very thoughts are natural and valid events in the flow and we can see and believe that.

 

Yes, this kind of practice is done on a level of brain activity where alpha or theta waves (7 to 14 hertz and 4 to 7 Hertz, respectively) prevail, whereas waking activity (especially in untrained individuals) is usually connected to higher brain wave frequencies. In deep relaxation a state of unity is being approached (alpha = aloha; ).

 

When we are in the dual mode, our thoughts are private and insubstantial.  In the non-dual mode our thoughts are like sunshine and warmth on the germinating seed.

 

Nicely said. It is good that our thoughts in the non-dual mode have much greater power for manifestation.

 

Yes good question.  I think the more we dwell on this we more we realise that all our happenings result by the same process you described.  So the miracle and the mundane are, and always were, one and the same thing.

 

Yes, we are all unconscious magicians. A true magician is somebody who can manifest their thoughts consciously, in accordance with their will. On the advanced levels, more unlikely things (like the healing of an advanced "incurable" illness) can be achieved.

 

 But when we believe in our duality we disbelieve that our will can flout the laws of nature.

 

Not so much flout them as circumvent them.

[Nikolai1]

Yes, we are all unconscious magicians. A true magician is somebody who can manifest their thoughts consciously, in accordance with their will. 

I think this is such a radical idea that I think we have to start experiencing the miracle first hand if we are to seriously engage with it.  Speaking personally, events have happened that have been so strange that I needed to incorporate them into my worldview.

 

Happily the philosophical tradition does enough to dismantle our native materialism / scientism, but first-hand experience gives us the intellectual courage to really start making sense of this very strange subject.

[Karl]

I don't believe in that. But I do believe that more is possible than what is acknowledged by academic science. Considerably more.

 

 

 

Right, visualization will facilitate the occurrence of the closest analogy to its subject that is accessible. As you have explained well, some manifestations are much more unlikely than others. However, the more skilled a "magician", the more improbable the events that they are able to draw into manifestation.

 

Another thing where you and I probably won't agree with each other is that, due to the interconnectedness of everything, a magician can influence things and events that are seemingly separate from them.

 

Depends what you mean by 'magician'. I'm writing to people all over the world and that seems very magical in the sense I can influence things that are very remote to me. I can order a product from a foreign country, we never meet, the product is part of an enormous web of interconnections which is too much for even the cleverest scientists to document, yet, it arrives on my doorstep a couple of days after I've pressed the order button.

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Depends what you mean by 'magician'. I'm writing to people all over the world and that seems very magical in the sense I can influence things that are very remote to me. I can order a product from a foreign country, we never meet, the product is part of an enormous web of interconnections which is too much for even the cleverest scientists to document, yet, it arrives on my doorstep a couple of days after I've pressed the order button.

 

What I am talking about is similar, except that the magician, instead of relying on the internet, knows how to employ Indra's net.