Individual will, reality creation and miracles

[Karl]

You mean, there is nothing we can do to help the poor man awake?

 

Chortle chortle. :-) not to the kind that thinks existence is created by consciousness Michael. That's called dreaming. Denying reality is the realm of Walter Mitty.

[Nikolai1]

I'm not sure I agree with that conclusion, but the idea of 'psychosomatic' fascinates me.

 

As usual, there is an area where 'thoughts creating reality' are actually widely accepted and recognised.  This is the area of psychosomatic medicine - where a person's state of mind creates physical illness or well-being.

 

Same with the placebo.  If a person believes that the pill will heal them, then it will - regardless of what is in the pill.

 

And by the way, the healing is not just in the patient's perceptions.  The placebo healing is directly reflected in the physical body.

 

Some examples:

 

1)  In Parkinson's disease placebos have been seen to produce a 'flood' of dopamine.

 

2) Fake oxygen, given to a person at real altitude, has been shown to cult levels of prostaglandins (which by dilating blood vessels are respponsible for the symptoms of altitude sickness).

 

3) In Japan, blindfolded children were told that a harmless leaf rubbed on their skin was poison ivy, and they came out in a rash as a result of their belief.

 

4) In asthma, a study first told the patients that the inhaler would tighten their lungs (but it was only water vapour) Not only did it work, but when they were told that the next drug would open up their lungs again (more water vapour) - their lungs opened up again.

 

5) Howard Beacher, the main lobbyist for inclusion of placebo controls in medical trials, ran out of morphine as a wartime surgeon.  nevertheless he found that saline water calmed the patient enough to perform operations so distressing that cardiac shock might have been a risk.

 

Modern medicine has gone a long way towards exploring and describing the placebo effects.  But how it works??? There is nobody who even dares to confront the strangeness of how it works.

 

Facing up the placebo effect requires intellectual courage.  It is a worldview changing phenomenon, and yet it as ancient as the hills.  What we think shall come to manifest in our intimate physical reality.

 

I'm glad it fascinates you, because in my opinion it is the biggest, most radical subject in modern science!

[Marblehead]

So anyhow.  It is generally accepted that will has power.

 

Therefore it is just that it be called the will to power.

 

And while it is true that our mind can create our own reality and even miracles, these are in the most part illusions and delusions.

 

The next step after attaining the will to power one must get up off their butt and do something in order for others to experience the reality as well.  If others can't see it then it is still the individual's personal illusion and/or delusion.

[Nikolai1]

The next step after attaining the will to power one must get up off their butt and do something in order for others to experience the reality as well.  If others can't see it then it is still the individual's personal illusion and/or delusion.

Unfortunately it's not as straightforward as this.  People may see and experience the reality of something miraculous, but it doesn't mean they accept it as a miracle.  

 

Or, more commonly, they act like medical science acts towards the placebo.  They half-acknowledge it, but make no attempt to explain it.  If others try to explain it using 'mind over matter' type thinking - they will reject it in the strongest possible terms.  The psychological mechanism is exactly like denial, in the Freudian sense.

 

As I've said in this thread already.  it seems to be human nature that the miraculous is not truly confronted until it makes a dramatic and unmistakable appearance in our own lives.  This is our calling, if you like.  After this happens, it feels wrong, cowardly, to just explain it all away.

 

In my experience, and to my thinking, the insurrection of the miraculous starts gradually.  Somewhere on these boards I remember writing a hierarchy of the miracle.  At the lowest levels, it is nothing more than the strange affinity we have for the moment before us - commonly called, deja vu.  Moving on from this, the synchronicity is like strong deja vu.  As we go on, the miracle is less an inner felt sense, but starts to physcially manifest in strange ways and so on.

[Marblehead]

But you know I do not accept the concept of "miracle" as in something supernatural.  Everything that happens in the universe is natural.

 

Sure, there are things that happen that we cannot explain.  But that doesn't mean they were supernatural.  It only means we don't understand why they happen.  Sometimes there just isn't a "Why?".

[Nikolai1]

But you know I do not accept the concept of "miracle" as in something supernatural.  Everything that happens in the universe is natural.

 

Sure, there are things that happen that we cannot explain.  But that doesn't mean they were supernatural.  It only means we don't understand why they happen.  Sometimes there just isn't a "Why?".

Yes, this is a more flexible attitude.  Perhaps you might describe the miracle as something improbable, but possible.

 

The person who is closed to the miracle does not deal in probabilities.  They say: "There are things that are truly impossible in this world:  It is impossible for a person to know about the death of their parent in another continent, unless they are directly told.  Any claim to the contrary is either a lie, a meaningless coincidence, or a memory that you fabricated upon hearing the news."

 

The miracle therefore is always a personal thing.  It is the enchantment of your own world.  Others will not see it or share your wonder.  They already have their explanation.

 

When you ascend into the realm where reality is felt as the product of your own consciousness, you in the most part travel there alone.  It is a new radical worldview, and the old self and the old self's associates very often don't make the journey.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Nikolai1

[ilumairen]

Nikolai, have you looked at twin studies?

[Nikolai1]

Nikolai, have you looked at twin studies?

I have a psychology degree where twin studies are methodological gold!

 

Why do you ask?

[ilumairen]

I have a psychology degree where twin studies are methodological gold!

 

Why do you ask?

 

Because you used the word 'impossible' regarding feeling the death of a parent, and that's what came to mind when I read your words.

 

[Nikolai1]

Sorry?

[Marblehead]

Yes, this is a more flexible attitude.  Perhaps you might describe the miracle as something improbable, but possible.

You have properly placed the tail on the donkey.

 

The person who is closed to the miracle does not deal in probabilities.  There are things that are truly impossible in this world:  It is impossible for a person to know about the death of their parent in another continent, unless they are directly told.  Any claim to the contrary is either a lie, a meaningless coincidence, or a memory that you fabricated upon hearing the news.

I find agreement here.

 

The miracle therefore is always a personal thing.  It is the enchantment of your own world.  Others will not see it or share your wonder.  They already have their explanation.

Exactly.  And this is where illusions and delusions play their games.  A person's mind is their private property.  Their illusions and delusions are real assets within the boundaries of their private property. 

 

When you ascend into the realm where reality is felt as the product of your own consciousness, you in the most part travel there alone.  It is a new radical worldview, and the old self and the old self's associates very often don't make the journey.

True.  I cannot know your experiences.  All I can know is what you tell me of your experience.  If I had never had such an experience I would be unable to empathize with you.

[Nikolai1]

Exactly.  And this is where illusions and delusions play their games.  A person's mind is their private property.  Their illusions and delusions are real assets within the boundaries of their private property. 

Well, no, and this is where it gets more complex.  The miracle making mind is the non-dual mind.  It is the mind that has realised its union with the world.  It is the mind that sees self and non-self as being variations of the same thing.  To enter this mind is to leave behind individuality.

 

A person's mind becomes common property. 

 

True.  I cannot know your experiences.  All I can know is what you tell me of your experience.  If I had never had such an experience I would be unable to empathize with you.

 But if you can only understand the mind as a private thing, then you won't understand my miracle.

[ilumairen]

The person who is closed to the miracle does not deal in probabilities.  There are things that are truly impossible in this world:  It is impossible for a person to know about the death of their parent in another continent, unless they are directly told.  Any claim to the contrary is either a lie, a meaningless coincidence, or a memory that you fabricated upon hearing the news.

 

This.

 

To me it looks like a focus on probabilities that closes you have to possibilities, and enables you to deny how others may describe their own experience.

 

I worked with a man whose father died in another country. He did believe he felt it, and I have no reason to either disbelieve or contradict him.

[Nikolai1]

This. To me it looks like a focus on probabilities that closes you have to possibilities, and enables you to deny how others may describe their own experience. I worked with a man whose father died in another country. He did believe he felt it, and I have no reason to either disbelieve or contradict him.

Yes, my point exactly.  But what's your point with the twins?

[ilumairen]

Yes, my point exactly.  But what's your point with the twins?

 

My point was simply that I have come across stories regarding twins, the closeness of some of their bonds, and how this in some cases, related to awareness of the 'other' beyond normal experience.

 

[Nikolai1]

My point was simply that I have come across stories regarding twins, the closeness of some of their bonds, and how this in some cases, related to awareness of the 'other' beyond normal experience.

Yes, an awareness that seems miraculous according to the usual worldview.

 

But what can it mean? Our selfhood seem to extend above and beyond time and space.  We are able to know things that haven't come in through the physical senses...and this knowing isn't rational deductive knowing as in maths - but direct knowledge of unique situations.

 

The world of time and space is where the laws of science operate - the laws that are so sacred to those who disbelieve in miracles.  But all around us life is showing that we can know about situations that are in different place and different time.  We break the laws, we make sport with the laws.

 

Actually it was a knowing of this nature - not with a twin, but with a loved one - that made open up to the miraculous.

[ilumairen]

Yes, an awareness that seems miraculous according to the usual worldview.

 

But what can it mean? Our selfhood seem to extend above and beyond time and space.  We are able to know things that haven't come in through the physical senses...and this knowing isn't rational deductive knowing as in maths - but direct knowledge of unique situations.

 

The world of time and space is where the laws of science operate - the laws that are so sacred to those who disbelieve in miracles.  But all around us life is showing that we can know about situations that are in different place and different time.  We break the laws, we make sport with the laws.

 

Actually it was a knowing of this nature - not with a twin, but with a loved one - that made open up to the miraculous.

 

I like the 'miraculous'.

[Marblehead]

Well, no, and this is where it gets more complex.  The miracle making mind is the non-dual mind.  It is the mind that has realised its union with the world.  It is the mind that sees self and non-self as being variations of the same thing.  To enter this mind is to leave behind individuality.

And to leave sanity behind as well.

 

A person's mind becomes common property.

That's what my government thinks.  Wrong!

 

 But if you can only understand the mind as a private thing, then you won't understand my miracle.

I wouldn't understand your miracle anyway.  But there would be the possibility that I would understand why you think it was a miracle.

[Marblehead]

I like the 'miraculous'.

And I like Pegacorns.

[Michael Sternbach]

Well, no, and this is where it gets more complex.  The miracle making mind is the non-dual mind.  It is the mind that has realised its union with the world.  It is the mind that sees self and non-self as being variations of the same thing.  To enter this mind is to leave behind individuality.

 

A person's mind becomes common property. 

 

 

 But if you can only understand the mind as a private thing, then you won't understand my miracle.

 

Boy, don't say this to a rock headed individualist like Marblehead!

 

But actually, what you are referring to, in my own experience, involves both transcending and fully manifesting one's individuality. (Yeah, there's another paradoxon for you.) That's why Jung was talking of individuation. What we leave behind is the boundaries of the ego (perhaps that's what you meant by "individuality"?) and start manifesting the self.

 

This is our true individuality, beyond what societal and cultural influences made us. Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu speak to this a lot. I hope that this is more agreeable to MH as well.

 

 

 

[ilumairen]

And I like Pegacorns.

Miraculous is a descriptor, which you have chosen to compare to a thing. You may view Pegacorns as miraculous if you wish, but you have now stepped firmly away from what I was pointing towards.

 

That is, of course, your right.

Edited March 8, 2016 by ilumairen

[Michael Sternbach]

Lots of pegacorns where I live.

[Brian]

Lots of pegacorns where I live.

Them's good eating.

[Marblehead]

Miraculous is a descriptor, which you have chosen to compare to a thing. You may view Pegacorns as miraculous if you wish, but you have now stepped firmly away from what I was pointing towards.

 

That is, of course, your right.

Yeah, I do that on occasion.  If it upset you I apologize.

 

Certain words have special meaning for me.  Some are very positive and others are rather negative.

 

I associate "miracle" with "con".

 

Yes, you were speaking to a concept that I think is faulty.  I do get critical at times.

[Nikolai1]

 

But actually, what you are referring to, in my own experience, involves both transcending and fully manifesting one's individuality. (Yeah, there's another paradoxon for you.) That's why Jung was talking of individuation. What we leave behind is the boundaries of the ego (perhaps that's what you meant by "individuality"?) and start manifesting the self.

 

This is our true individuality, beyond what societal and cultural influences made us. Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu speak to this a lot. 

Yes! And this has been my aim from the very beginning of this thread: to show that the sage, in his behaviour, is novel and creative.

 

This is individuality!  The individual is someone who isn't just following some set of rules; a person who doesn't always react in the same stereotyped ways.  The more of an individual a person becomes, the harder it is to describe them.  They are not a fixed entity.  they contradict themselves day by day.  They are new and fresh and therefore unlike anyone else around.  They are truly individual, but this does not make them easier to categorise - it makes them harder.  We see them as they stand out as individuals...but when it comes to describing them we are lost.  They are unique in being undescribable!

 

And all this is possible when we have the humility to stop being a definable person in this world.  When we divest our cardboard social identity that is known and recognised by other people, and become the one higher mind, then we are free and able to be more of an individual than ever before.