Outsider's doubts

[Spotless]

Hi Daeluin, thanks for your nice support!

 

But you (and many others, thank you all) already gave me the best advice I could get: just let the “energy” guide you. And this is what I have done, or tried to do, without taking into consideration any theory.

 

At the current stage, I would say that all these physical feelings and even mystical “experiences” need no more physical/supernatural support than our nervous system. It would be nice finding correlations between this approach and the different systems/traditions, but more and more I tend to think that this is not so much necessary, at least at the moment.

 

This “energetic”/neural process seems indeed to lead to a gradual shifting of your point of view, which could be labelled as “detachment from the ego”, “dilution” or some other rhetoric term. But again, I prefer not getting tangled with words; just watch and feel.

 

Where this way ends, if it ends somewhere, I don’t know. But the scenery is great!

Cheers,

juan

It only ends if you label it and pin it down and try to "put it somewhere".

Simple meditation helps you to relinquish this tendency.

[juan]

It only ends if you label it and pin it down and try to "put it somewhere".

Simple meditation helps you to relinquish this tendency.

 

I understand your words as a recommendation to “nondoing” as the only way to keep the process going? (It only stops if you label it…) This is how I perceive it: thoughts, intentions and analysis hinder the “flow”, so you have to stay aware, but without thoughts.

 

I don’t know if this can be a kind of meditation. I tried to follow some instructions on meditation, focusing on the breath and so on, with little results. It seems to me that focusing on the breath is used just as a trick to keep thoughts at bay, but in my case focusing in the “flow” is a far more powerful “attractor” to quiet my mind, as a magnet draws a needle.

 

My use of “where the way ends” had to do with some kind of “goal”. What is this all for? But in a thoughtless state goals simply don’t exist. Even when I am thinking about it now, I find a bit nonsensical having any “goal” when I really have no idea. There is for sure a feeling of progress, in the sense that these “flows” grow higher and higher every day. Is there a limit to their intensity? What will happen when I feel within my head the same intensity I feel now in the, say, LDT? OK, we’ll see!

[juan]

Hello again, Spotless. Maybe I put my words in an assertive format that blocked any answer. Now I will try to say the same but using more question marks, so answering may be easier.

 

My overall question is. What is the relationship, if any, between these currents (wether we call them qi, prana or neural connections) and meditation?

 

The way you answered seems to suggest that they are opposing forces; say, these currents are the wild horse and meditation is the bit. Could you pls tell me if my assumption is right, or modulate your response?

 

I have found the same (seemingly) contradiction in yogic sites, where the currents seem to be actively seeked, even with brute force approaches (bandhas, stances, etc.) just to be considered a "distraction" when they arise; some kind of "scenery" that keeps you away from the nobler objective of meditation. Probably due to my lack of information, it seems to me that they look for these currents just to reject them once they have the first feeling. Could you (or someone else) provide me with the piece of info I'm missing?

 

On the other hand, if I have understood it well, one of the old texts about this stuff, the Vijñāna Bhairava Tantra, explains 112 equivalent paths to reach what could be called "Illumination". Most of them are the classics of meditation, i.e. focus on the breath, chants, and so on. But one of these paths seems to require, basically, sex (tantric sex): "At the start of sexual union keep attentive on the fire in the beginning, and so continuing, avoid the embers in the end...”  Again, my lack of info makes me think that, in spite of the very different animals that meditation and sex are, they seem to be equivalent vehicles to reach the same objective. Could you or anyone else please give me your opinion on that?

 

Thanks a lot for your help

juan

[Jeff]

Hi Juan,

 

Just saw this and I hope you don't mind me responding to your questions.

 

There is a direct relationship between meditation and feeling energy flows. Maybe think of it like two sides of the same coin, or different ends of the same spectrum. Most people are sort of clogged with issues and fears. When you meditate, you are sort of going deeper into your mind (subconscious). That increases the potential of finding those deeper issues and fears. Those fears are basically stored energy structures that clog the system. If you "let go of" those issues and fears, the stored energy is freed up and the pathways become more open. When people reach a certain level of openness, they begin to consciously notice the energy flow.

 

Tantra is really more about energy flow between two "polarities" than specifically about sex. But, there is a natural polarity that establishes between men and women. Something like a purification loop can become naturally created, especially when the loop is based starting at the heart.

 

Hope that helps.

[juan]

Your input is always welcome, Jeff. Thank you.

 

Tantra is really more about energy flow between two "polarities" than specifically about sex.

 

After four years since I started feeling this thing, now I really don’t care very much about the label attached to what I am supposedly doing. Call it Tantra, Kriya, Raja, Neidan, Chi-kung (as imparted by the umpteenth lineage or Master xxxx), etc. Whatever. The only important fact is that I can feel and, somehow, guide, this thing. Again, call it energy, prana, qi, shen, kundalini. Whatever.

 

Yes, this all started with sex, and I witness that sex (what we do is probably the so-called Tantric sex) has been a powerful trainer in order to make this thing grow and grow. But there is a moment when this “polarity” thing you mention appears, and sex becomes just a small subset of the “energetic” experience. You don’t even need a partner; probably the most interesting experiences happen when you are on your own.

 

Of course I am only guessing what you exactly mean by “polarity”; quite probably my understanding is different, but I think that it has somehow to do with something I have recently read in some posts of a new member (Pilgrim).

 

 

At first your body will think so this is what it is like to be female to become penetrated and then you will think so this is what it is like to be penetrated and then you will think so this is what it feels like to be the one penetrating…

…Here a man becomes woman and a woman becomes man, without this you can not go further here there is the blending and the completion of the the two great principals of Masculine and Feminine…

 

First time I can read something that reflects our experience! Of course it all started not at the heart connection but through the “2^nd chakra”, so this impression of reversing sexual roles was quite realistic. But this feminine, absorbing, yin behavior, as opposed to the previously prevalent masculine, expanding, yang behavior can afterwards be reproduced at every single “chakra” (I prefer calling these anatomical locations “neural nodes”). At this stage, I would say that you have both "polarities".

 

The relationship between meditation and “energy flows” (bliss) is another issue. Again, Pilgrim gives what I consider a very good hint:

 

 

The only way to bring mind to the point of stillness and one pointed-ness is to give mind something it desires above all else then the mind will willingly focus upon that to the exclusion of all else.

That something else is bliss.

When mind becomes grasping trying to grasp bliss, bliss recedes.

Mind swiftly learns that to have bliss it must let go again and again and quit clinging then bliss comes even more strongly.

 

To me this is the key. When you find bliss, this is the ultimate meditation object, and, as I said at the other place we met, it draws your mind like the magnet draws a needle, and things start to move at a very quick pace.

 

I don’t understand the concept of “blockages” due to specific fears which act as “stored energy structures”. IME, if the mind is enthralled by bliss there is no fear, as there are no thoughts. But of course if you are worried and can’t get rid of your worries/fears, you will never get the necessary mental attitude: 0 thoughts.

 

Finally, the subconscious issue

 

When you meditate, you are sort of going deeper into your mind (subconscious).

 

First we should agree on what is understood by “mind” and what is understood by “subconscious”. And I have a lot of questions on that. Can we say that we are conscious only when we are able to translate reality into words? What if what we call “subconscious” was the real “conscience”, only that it exists in a realm without thoughts? Where does “conscience” dwells? In the brain, which can be seen as a hypertrophic neural ganglion, or in this newly discovered inner neural structure – but much older than the brain - segmented and covering the whole body?

 

A funny tech article on that: http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

 

Would be nice having a conversation about this, but my experience is that this subject is a very good conversation-killer, at least in the open forums. Maybe a PPF would be a better place!

 

Cheers,

juan

[Jeff]

Juan - Agree on the topic...

 

On conscious as compared to subconscious... Why don't we simplify it to something that happens within your mental control and something that does not.  Like typing to me is conscious, but your heart beat is subconscious (or beyond most peoples control).

 

Regarding your broader point on polarities at each chakra level, I would agree with that point. Additionally, there is obvious mental sexual "translation" for many with the energy flows both between separate people, and also found within your own "internal" polarities, and you can definitely call that something like "bliss". I would just say that you are not really feeling the energy flow, but more feel the energy "hitting" things (issues and fears) as it flows.  Those are the energy structures that I meant.

 

Maybe think of it like a grid with an origin and horizontal and vertical directions with the grid.  The vertical direction is increasingly higher chakras, and the horizontal (+ and -) is the natural male and female polarities. As you go "higher" than the 7 chakras you start getting into more divine stuff.  As you expand more horizontally (beyond normal human stuff), male and female become more about transmission and reception.  This is the "two" that come from the "one" in the TTC.

 

The bliss that you describe is felt with the energy flowing back and forth between your own polarities.  While this feels great (and I agree the mind loves it), to me it is somewhat self limiting on its own, because there is not the natural expansion force of pulling further apart those polarities.  The local mind just sort of enjoys the party in its own bubble of self.  It is through interactions with others that the system gets stressed and expanded.  Or you could say it is easy to be an enlightened/blissed out yogi on a mountain top, but go out in the real work, have a job, get married with kids and see how enlightened you are...

 

This beyond local self polarity stretching is why many traditions say you need a guru or to have a form of Yidam/Deity worship. Merging with a deity sort of pulls you higher, while working with a dakini form helps pull you wider across the horizontal. The point is described here...

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Why is it important to practice the yidam deity?

 

The master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will attain siddhis, your obstacles will be removed, you will obtain powers, receive blessings, and give rise to realization. Since all these qualities result from practicing the yidam deity, then without the yidam deity you will just be an ordinary person. By practicing the yidam deity you attain the siddhis, so the yidam deity is essential.

 

padmasambhava guru Rinpoche (2013-12-01). Dakini Teachings. 

 

Best,

Jeff

[juan]

Thanks a lot Jeff, for your kind and elaborate answer. My comments / questions:

 

I would just say that you are not really feeling the energy flow, but more feel the energy "hitting" things (issues and fears) as it flows.  Those are the energy structures that I meant.

 

I feel something, that’s the only thing I can say for sure. At the beginning, the metaphor of removing dirt from clogged pipes with a stream of cleaning agent fitted very well with the feeling: like chunks of dirt removed and taken away with the flow. And it was extremely pleasant.

 

We can tell the same story exchanging cleaning agent by “energy” and dirt by “energetic structures”. But the result will always be a very precisely located feeling which should (IMO) always require some local neural circuitry to convey this precise info to my mind. I still wonder if, perhaps, everything is purely physiological, neuronal play, without requiring any further esoteric explanation.

 

Maybe think of it like a grid with an origin and horizontal and vertical directions with the grid.  The vertical direction is increasingly higher chakras, and the horizontal (+ and -) is the natural male and female polarities. As you go "higher" than the 7 chakras you start getting into more divine stuff.  As you expand more horizontally (beyond normal human stuff), male and female become more about transmission and reception.  This is the "two" that come from the "one" in the TTC.

 

Sorry, I don’t understand that. Concerning vertical direction, what’s the meaning of “going higher than the 7 chakras”? Focusing the perception above the crown? And I can’t see the relationship between horizontal (+ and -) and male and female polarities, could you elaborate a little bit? My only understanding of the male/female dichotomy so far has only to do with expanding/contracting and pushing /yielding.

 

The bliss that you describe is felt with the energy flowing back and forth between your own polarities.  While this feels great (and I agree the mind loves it), to me it is somewhat self limiting on its own, because there is not the natural expansion force of pulling further apart those polarities.  The local mind just sort of enjoys the party in its own bubble of self.  It is through interactions with others that the system gets stressed and expanded.  Or you could say it is easy to be an enlightened/blissed out yogi on a mountain top, but go out in the real work, have a job, get married with kids and see how enlightened you are...

 

This is also a bit confusing to me. Does “energy flowing back and forth between your own polarities” mean the same as the so-called “inner sex”? Connecting two nearby chakras/nodes and feeling how one acts as male, ejecting “energy” and the other as female, absorbing this “energy”? This is definitely very pleasant, as you feel a masculine orgasm in the former and a feminine orgasm at the latter. But I see no relationship with horizontality; most of these interactions happen in a vertical direction.

 

You also say that “it is somewhat self-limiting on its own, because there is not the natural expansion force of pulling further apart those polarities”. So polarities should be pulled apart? What does this mean?

 

And, yes, I think this may be a problem as this sheer pleasure may very well keep you inside a bubble. Kind of masturbation. But what should be the practice to interact with others? Dual cultivation? To my understanding, very few people do that.

 

This beyond local self polarity stretching is why many traditions say you need a guru or to have a form of Yidam/Deity worship. Merging with a deity sort of pulls you higher, while working with a dakini form helps pull you wider across the horizontal. The point is described here...

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Why is it important to practice the yidam deity?

 

The master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will attain siddhis, your obstacles will be removed, you will obtain powers, receive blessings, and give rise to realization. Since all these qualities result from practicing the yidam deity, then without the yidam deity you will just be an ordinary person. By practicing the yidam deity you attain the siddhis, so the yidam deity is essential.

 

Thanks for the quote, Jeff, but I am unable to extract any info from it. I can only read that “practicing the yidam deity” is fantastic, but nothing about the specifics of this practice. Can I find them somewhere?

 

I have a problem with that: when I read “deity” or “worship” my brain shuts like a clam. But if a mortal woman can act as a dakini, I think I've got one...

 

Thank you again, Jeff, for your patience. Cheers,

juan

[Rishi Das]

Thanks for the quote, Jeff, but I am unable to extract any info from it. I can only read that “practicing the yidam deity” is fantastic, but nothing about the specifics of this practice. Can I find them somewhere?

 

Quick and dirty answer from Wikipedia -

 

Yidam is a type of deity associated with tantric or Vajrayana Buddhism said to be manifestations of Buddhahood or enlightened mind. During personal meditation (sādhana) practice, the yogi identifies their own form, attributes and mind with those of a yidam for the purpose of transformation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yidam

Edited December 16, 2016 by Rishi Das

[juan]

Kind of visualisation? You imagine that you are a yidam?

[Jeff]

Thanks a lot Jeff, for your kind and elaborate answer. My comments / questions:

 

 

I feel something, that’s the only thing I can say for sure. At the beginning, the metaphor of removing dirt from clogged pipes with a stream of cleaning agent fitted very well with the feeling: like chunks of dirt removed and taken away with the flow. And it was extremely pleasant.

 

We can tell the same story exchanging cleaning agent by “energy” and dirt by “energetic structures”. But the result will always be a very precisely located feeling which should (IMO) always require some local neural circuitry to convey this precise info to my mind. I still wonder if, perhaps, everything is purely physiological, neuronal play, without requiring any further esoteric explanation.

 

 

 

The challenge with the purely physiological theory is when you reach the point that you can directly effect others remotely...

 

 

 

Sorry, I don’t understand that. Concerning vertical direction, what’s the meaning of “going higher than the 7 chakras”? Focusing the perception above the crown? And I can’t see the relationship between horizontal (+ and -) and male and female polarities, could you elaborate a little bit? My only understanding of the male/female dichotomy so far has only to do with expanding/contracting and pushing /yielding.

 

 

No, it is not about visualizing or trying to move your view as in things like astral projection.  It is more about "being" than "thinking or seeing".  One sort of expands beyond the human body-mind and starts to directly connect/integrate with the world around them.  Kind of moving beyond self into ultimate reality more broadly.

 

Pushing and yielding is sort of a physical layer aspect of what I mean by transmission and reception. Maybe think of it like a pendulum swinging between two ends/polarities.  The greater the swing range, the less friction (issues and fears) and more powerful swings (energy flow).

 

 

This is also a bit confusing to me. Does “energy flowing back and forth between your own polarities” mean the same as the so-called “inner sex”? Connecting two nearby chakras/nodes and feeling how one acts as male, ejecting “energy” and the other as female, absorbing this “energy”? This is definitely very pleasant, as you feel a masculine orgasm in the former and a feminine orgasm at the latter. But I see no relationship with horizontality; most of these interactions happen in a vertical direction.

 

You also say that “it is somewhat self-limiting on its own, because there is not the natural expansion force of pulling further apart those polarities”. So polarities should be pulled apart? What does this mean?

 

And, yes, I think this may be a problem as this sheer pleasure may very well keep you inside a bubble. Kind of masturbation. But what should be the practice to interact with others? Dual cultivation? To my understanding, very few people do that.

 

 

Yes, I was describing the same concept of inner sex.  My point is that if you dive deeper into each "chakra", you will find that they have their own polarities and so you get the same but a more refined "pleasure" without going cross chakras.  Instead of polarities, some people would describe it as spin direction, because they are focused on a particular male or female side.

 

By self limiting, I mean that the mind tends to stay in a rut.  Having outside connections or friends help you expand into new territory.  Like if you have a deep subconscious fear of something, your mind will naturally avoid it and you are less likely to deal with it.  But talking with a friend can help force the issue and free it up.

 

Actually, I think you will find that most traditions focus on dual practice at the higher levels.  That dual may be with a guru or a divine being.

 

 

Thanks for the quote, Jeff, but I am unable to extract any info from it. I can only read that “practicing the yidam deity” is fantastic, but nothing about the specifics of this practice. Can I find them somewhere?

 

I have a problem with that: when I read “deity” or “worship” my brain shuts like a clam. But if a mortal woman can act as a dakini, I think I've got one...

 

Thank you again, Jeff, for your patience. Cheers,

juan

 

 

Most deity practices are more guru system based.  It is really about finding a teacher that becomes important.

 

A loving mortal partner is a great way to go.  You are blessed to have one...  

[Jeff]

Kind of visualisation? You imagine that you are a yidam?

 

 

Even though all of the books talk about mind based visualization, that is only a small part of it.  The important part is building the energetic connection to the Yidam. 

 

Abhinavagupta (Kashmir Shivaism) states...

 

"He attains the potency of the mantra whose nature is the Heart because if the efficacy of the method of worship, either by himself, because of his own superiority and difference, or because of the lotus flower of the clear and gracious speech of the lord guru. This is state of liberation while still alive."

 

Also...

 

"These same divinities are likewise to be worshipped and "practiced" in one's own body. By whatever object of practice, whether it be the appeased form which is to be obtained by means of the consciousness in the Heart, one obtains Siva in his quiescent, appeased condition like an ocean without waves."

 

-Triadic Heart of Siva

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Kind of visualisation? You imagine that you are a yidam?

 

 

I haven't reviewed all of these posts, so I hope that by posting I am not repeating anything.

 

The Wikipedia article on Yidams is a fair point to begin on Buddhists aspects of the practice, and yes in "self Generation" you imagine that "you are a Yidam", but there are a wide variety of practices, and the practice is not exclusive to Buddhism.  Doing a search for "deity yoga", the name for the discipline as a whole, will produce a lot of information.

 

As I said the practice of assuming divine forms, or transforming into a deity is actually common, there are Hindu forms, Daoist forms, ancient Egyptian forms, and practices in Western Theurgy that involve such procedures.  I myself practice the Ritual Daoist form of "Transforming into a Deity to refine Qi".  Professor Jerry Alan Johnson has several examples of Ritual Daoist procedures for doing this in his books on Daoist Magic.

 

ZYD

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Slight reformatting and replaced a wordy repetition of practices with procedures.

[juan]

The challenge with the purely physiological theory is when you reach the point that you can directly effect others remotely...

This has already happened, at least between my wife and me, but only at short distances. It is obvious now that our nervous systems can work in sync without a direct synaptic connection, as her masculine/feminine orgasms in specific “chakras” (nodes) instantly trigger my feminine/masculine orgasms at the same places, and vice versa.

 

How far this remote influence may travel, and which mechanisms allow it, I don’t know. So far, I still prefer thinking that we know very little about our nervous system and its abilities, especially the so-called autonomous system (which bears an odd cartographical similarity with the ckakras-dantiens-meridians description). But, seeing how things have been evolving, it may be that, as our experiences expand, I may accept as true phenomena and explanations that right now I perceive as spurious. Now I see telepathy with different eyes; that’s a start!

 

No, it is not about visualizing or trying to move your view as in things like astral projection.  It is more about "being" than "thinking or seeing".  One sort of expands beyond the human body-mind and starts to directly connect/integrate with the world around them.  Kind of moving beyond self into ultimate reality more broadly.

Does this have to do with the concept “abiding” or “meditating on”? When one “chakra” fires, I neither think nor see anything. All is formless, and I only feel this thing focused in a specific place within the limits of my body. I don’t think or imagine anything; I “am” there. This is difficult to explain: if I hit my finger I detect where it hurts but I am not there.

 

So may I understand that putting the focus on a point outside the limits of my body I will eventually get the same feeling of “being there” as precisely as I feel inside my body? Is this the technique? I was about to ask you how to distinguish this “outside” feeling, if it happens, from mere imagination. I suppose that the answer may only be “when you really feel outside the same fire you feel inside”?

 

Pushing and yielding is sort of a physical layer aspect of what I mean by transmission and reception. Maybe think of it like a pendulum swinging between two ends/polarities.  The greater the swing range, the less friction (issues and fears) and more powerful swings (energy flow).

 

Yes, I was describing the same concept of inner sex.  My point is that if you dive deeper into each "chakra", you will find that they have their own polarities and so you get the same but a more refined "pleasure" without going cross chakras.  Instead of polarities, some people would describe it as spin direction, because they are focused on a particular male or female side.

 

Wow. Finally, I understand what they meant by “spiraling”. So spiraling clockwise is another term for transmitting/pushing/yang and spinning counterclockwise means receiving/yielding/yin (or vice versa)?

 

I assume that everybody tries to define what they feel the best they can, building metaphors based on similar previous experiences. My previous experience, and I think it is a very common one, was the male orgasm. Pushing, explosive. Of course I had no idea about how a feminine orgasm could feel. Until the flow reversed. Then I thought exactly the same as Pilgrim says: “so this is how it feels being a woman, being penetrated” (and enjoying it, I would add). Absorbing, implosive.

 

I enter into these details because I think it is important translating what I feel/mean to people who speaks about the same thing in terms of spinning. Sometimes one “chakra” sends me the feeling of a feminine, implosive orgasm (other people may perceive a clockwise spinning). Sometimes it sends the signal of a masculine, explosive orgasm.

 

But you said: “chakras have their own polarities and so you get the same but a more refined "pleasure" without going cross chakras.”

 

These twenty words may be the seed of a very long conversation. In order to reach practical conclusions I think we need defining with more detail how we perceive a “chakra”.

 

For example, I don’t perceive them as a single point, but (for most of them) as a constellation of eight points in the periphery and a central void, kinda black hole. And, moving vertically from what you call muladhara to sahasrara (right in the perineum and in the top of the head, easy to pinpoint), my total chakra account would be nine and not seven.

 

I detect two different chakras/constellations between swadhistana and anahata, one app. at the navel level (this one is, without any doubt, what Taoists call LDT) and the other at the diaphragm. Does the Buddhist term manipura stands for this “double chakra”?

 

And the other intruder chakra I detect lies between vishuddi and ajna. In this case its central black hole is behind the soft palate, quite close to the void of ajna, but not the same. I would bet this neural node is the target of the practice called kechari mudra. If you can put your tongue on that it should feel like licking your own G-point!  

 

There is also a lot of activity in arms and legs, hands and feet… Here we have variable geometry…

 

Next step would be exchanging experiences on the dynamics and mutual interaction of “chakras”. Focusing in one single point (black hole or peripherals) is one thing; connecting these points in the myriad combinations available is a different issue. Practices like the MCO, kinda “joining the dots” would fit into this category. Here the important stuff would be knowing what the results of specific connections would be.

 

 But I don’t want abusing your patience, so please tell me if this kind of conversation is possible (and, specially, if it is worth).

This all has to do with my first goal: understanding the basic cartography and the handling and safety instructions of this machinery I found inside me. The yiddam/dakini thing goes a step further so maybe I put my comments/questions on that in a different post.

[juan]

This is surely a digression but I can’t’ resist commenting. I wrote a quick comment about the practical info I could extract from that quote. But some uneasiness lingered, and re-reading the quote I found the reason of my concern. Here is again the quote, I sliced it a little bit to analyze:

 

The master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will:

1. attain siddhis,
2. your obstacles will be removed,
3. you will obtain powers,
4. receive blessings,
5. and give rise to realization.

Since all these qualities result from practicing the yidam deity, then without the yidam deity you will just be an ordinary person. By practicing the yidam deity you attain the siddhis, so the yidam deity is essential.

 

This is, essentially, a selling advertisement. It is obvious that the master don’t say anything (at least in this quote) about HOW this yidam deity practice is performed, but only details its (fantastic) results. Sorry but I can’t avoid the image of the hair-restoring seller, voicing the magical properties of his concoction, rising in my mind.

 

But this seemingly hollow sales pitch is not what worries me, but its market objective. So the master is looking for people willing:

1. attain siddhis,
2. obtain powers,
3. obstacles removed,
4. receive blessings,
5. and … realization.

Last but not least, I would say. But probably seekers of realization will not be the largest market segment. And my question is: why is the master selling siddhis/powers in the first place and not just realization? I would bet that a large percentage of his potential customers will arrive demanding the former, but not the latter. Is this good?

 

Is it good for anyone jumping into these practices with the goal of attaining some kind of power? To be used how?

 

Is it good for the master receiving disciples who primarily want this objective? Selling powers will surely attract more potential customers than selling realization, so maybe this is the reason, but what to do with these disciples? Does the master expect that, once the disciples find the new toy and play with it, they discover that it is as irrelevant as anything else? Before harming themselves or harming others?

 

Sorry about the digression. I have to work a little bit on the yidam/dakini issue, which I consider extremely important, if we can break through the veils. Will come back on this later today, I hope.

[Apech]

As someone who actually does Buddhist yidam practice - I would say it is very misleading to pick and trade quotes from various unrelated sources and different systems to try to arrive at an understanding.

[thelerner]

As someone who actually does Buddhist yidam practice - I would say it is very misleading to pick and trade quotes from various unrelated sources and different systems to try to arrive at an understanding.

This cannot be repeated enough.  Not only with yidam practices, but throughout many discussions we find people using outliers to describe or insult systems, when they are far from the norms. 

[Jeff]

This has already happened, at least between my wife and me, but only at short distances. It is obvious now that our nervous systems can work in sync without a direct synaptic connection, as her masculine/feminine orgasms in specific “chakras” (nodes) instantly trigger my feminine/masculine orgasms at the same places, and vice versa.

 

How far this remote influence may travel, and which mechanisms allow it, I don’t know. So far, I still prefer thinking that we know very little about our nervous system and its abilities, especially the so-called autonomous system (which bears an odd cartographical similarity with the ckakras-dantiens-meridians description). But, seeing how things have been evolving, it may be that, as our experiences expand, I may accept as true phenomena and explanations that right now I perceive as spurious. Now I see telepathy with different eyes; that’s a start!

 

Maybe think of it like you are both naturally balancing each other to the depth of your openness and capacity. The "two" becoming the "one". Also, ultimately distance is a totally meaningless concept regarding the connection. It is only the "belief" in your mind that creates the obstruction from being able to do it with any distance.

 

Does this have to do with the concept “abiding” or “meditating on”? When one “chakra” fires, I neither think nor see anything. All is formless, and I only feel this thing focused in a specific place within the limits of my body. I don’t think or imagine anything; I “am” there. This is difficult to explain: if I hit my finger I detect where it hurts but I am not there.

 

So may I understand that putting the focus on a point outside the limits of my body I will eventually get the same feeling of “being there” as precisely as I feel inside my body? Is this the technique? I was about to ask you how to distinguish this “outside” feeling, if it happens, from mere imagination. I suppose that the answer may only be “when you really feel outside the same fire you feel inside”?

 

 

As you have described, energy follows your focus/attention/awareness. What you call "firing" is probably more you noticing the flow of you energy caused by your own attention.

 

Yes, on putting your focus outside of your body. But there are sort of like two types of it. With "astral" stuff, you are sort of seeing it and maiming the sense of individual body-mind, rather than as you described as "being there". The deeper level is as you have found with your partner, it is more like "being one with". It is more like you break down the local mind view that you are limited to your current body-mind. As you clear out the obstructions, you realize that you are also the other stuff.

 

As you have pointed out, this is what many traditions call the "outside is the same as the inside". Sort of like your body is like a mapping to the universe itself.

 

The rest in a bit...

Edited December 18, 2016 by Jeff

[Jeff]

This is surely a digression but I can’t’ resist commenting. I wrote a quick comment about the practical info I could extract from that quote. But some uneasiness lingered, and re-reading the quote I found the reason of my concern. Here is again the quote, I sliced it a little bit to analyze:

 

The master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will:

 

• attain siddhis,
• your obstacles will be removed,
• you will obtain powers,
• receive blessings,
• and give rise to realization.

Since all these qualities result from practicing the yidam deity, then without the yidam deity you will just be an ordinary person. By practicing the yidam deity you attain the siddhis, so the yidam deity is essential.

 

This is, essentially, a selling advertisement. It is obvious that the master don’t say anything (at least in this quote) about HOW this yidam deity practice is performed, but only details its (fantastic) results. Sorry but I can’t avoid the image of the hair-restoring seller, voicing the magical properties of his concoction, rising in my mind.

 

But this seemingly hollow sales pitch is not what worries me, but its market objective. So the master is looking for people willing:

• attain siddhis,
• obtain powers,
• obstacles removed,
• receive blessings,
• and … realization.

Last but not least, I would say. But probably seekers of realization will not be the largest market segment. And my question is: why is the master selling siddhis/powers in the first place and not just realization? I would bet that a large percentage of his potential customers will arrive demanding the former, but not the latter. Is this good?

 

Is it good for anyone jumping into these practices with the goal of attaining some kind of power? To be used how?

 

Is it good for the master receiving disciples who primarily want this objective? Selling powers will surely attract more potential customers than selling realization, so maybe this is the reason, but what to do with these disciples? Does the master expect that, once the disciples find the new toy and play with it, they discover that it is as irrelevant as anything else? Before harming themselves or harming others?

 

Sorry about the digression. I have to work a little bit on the yidam/dakini issue, which I consider extremely important, if we can break through the veils. Will come back on this later today, I hope.

I am not buddhist or selling anything, but I would essentially agree with the quote. Additionally, you need to remember that that the text is a translation of something written many hundreds of years ago. Very few people were capable of reading it (hence, no advertisement) and it was really just a text for an advanced memember of a tradition or school.

 

Maybe think of it more like an originally oral tradition saying something like.... this is really important. Pay attention...

[Jeff]

Continuing...

 

 

Wow. Finally, I understand what they meant by “spiraling”. So spiraling clockwise is another term for transmitting/pushing/yang and spinning counterclockwise means receiving/yielding/yin (or vice versa)?

 

I assume that everybody tries to define what they feel the best they can, building metaphors based on similar previous experiences. My previous experience, and I think it is a very common one, was the male orgasm. Pushing, explosive. Of course I had no idea about how a feminine orgasm could feel. Until the flow reversed. Then I thought exactly the same as Pilgrim says: “so this is how it feels being a woman, being penetrated” (and enjoying it, I would add). Absorbing, implosive.

 

I enter into these details because I think it is important translating what I feel/mean to people who speaks about the same thing in terms of spinning. Sometimes one “chakra” sends me the feeling of a feminine, implosive orgasm (other people may perceive a clockwise spinning). Sometimes it sends the signal of a masculine, explosive orgasm.

 

But you said: “chakras have their own polarities and so you get the same but a more refined "pleasure" without going cross chakras.”

 

These twenty words may be the seed of a very long conversation. In order to reach practical conclusions I think we need defining with more detail how we perceive a “chakra”.

 

For example, I don’t perceive them as a single point, but (for most of them) as a constellation of eight points in the periphery and a central void, kinda black hole. And, moving vertically from what you call muladhara to sahasrara (right in the perineum and in the top of the head, easy to pinpoint), my total chakra account would be nine and not seven.

 

I detect two different chakras/constellations between swadhistana and anahata, one app. at the navel level (this one is, without any doubt, what Taoists call LDT) and the other at the diaphragm. Does the Buddhist term manipura stands for this “double chakra”?

 

And the other intruder chakra I detect lies between vishuddi and ajna. In this case its central black hole is behind the soft palate, quite close to the void of ajna, but not the same. I would bet this neural node is the target of the practice called kechari mudra. If you can put your tongue on that it should feel like licking your own G-point!  

 

There is also a lot of activity in arms and legs, hands and feet… Here we have variable geometry…

 

Next step would be exchanging experiences on the dynamics and mutual interaction of “chakras”. Focusing in one single point (black hole or peripherals) is one thing; connecting these points in the myriad combinations available is a different issue. Practices like the MCO, kinda “joining the dots” would fit into this category. Here the important stuff would be knowing what the results of specific connections would be.

 

 But I don’t want abusing your patience, so please tell me if this kind of conversation is possible (and, specially, if it is worth).

This all has to do with my first goal: understanding the basic cartography and the handling and safety instructions of this machinery I found inside me. The yiddam/dakini thing goes a step further so maybe I put my comments/questions on that in a different post.

Yes, on the spin feeling/direction of chakras. But, I think it is important that chakras are really only a learned mental map. That is why different traditions all have a totally different number of chakras, primarily dependent if you are focusing on the body or more mental layers. For me, it is more like we are all obscured blobs of "light". First you clear the blob of stuff so that you notice the underlying light, then you go on to expand the blob to include the entire universe.

 

Maybe think of your "black hole" in your chakra concept as like finding the underlying light that I am trying to describe. And as you have pointed out with your "connecting the dots" of MCO, that being like connecting the chakras all into one big energy body "blob".

 

Also, I would personally suggest to not worry about specific connections, like above, maybe instead think about it like you are trying to connect all of the dots. It is the "stuff" that separates the dots that are the obscurations in the first place. The "goal" is more like perfectly clear energy flow though your entire body. Or if you have experienced a "heart orgasm" with your partner, think of it more like a full body heart orgasm.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Regarding this:
 

But this seemingly hollow sales pitch is not what worries me, but its market objective. So the master is looking for people willing:

• attain siddhis,
• obtain powers,
• obstacles removed,
• receive blessings,
• and … realization.

Last but not least, I would say. But probably seekers of realization will not be the largest market segment. And my question is: why is the master selling siddhis/powers in the first place and not just realization? I would bet that a large percentage of his potential customers will arrive demanding the former, but not the latter. Is this good?

 

What you don't realize is that in deity yoga these are not separate, or even separable goals, they are are parts of a whole that is realization. So the Buddhist teacher doesn't care if someone comes to them seeking only power, because as long as they follow the Buddhist methods they can't just gain power, they will gain all of the others also, and they even have a story to illustrate this, which I read a long time ago, 35 to 40 or so years ago, so I will reconstruct it as best as I can.
 

Little Mojo was the village outcast, from the wrong family he was beaten up, abused, belittled and treated like a dirty dog all of his youth. He grew up with one ambition, to wreck revenge on these people and destroy the village of his youth. He went around from teacher to teacher asking, the same question, “Following your methods can I gain the power to avenge my tortured childhood and destroy my native village?”. Everywhere he went he received the same answer, “Well yes, we can teach you that, but we don't teach that to your kind.” Finally he came to a Buddhist, asked the usual question the Buddhist said, “Why yes, we can teach you that”, “Hmm . . . “ Little Mojo said, then continued, “I've heard that before, but then they all they all said that they don't teach it to my kind, what about you?” The Buddhist said, “Oh, we're not that picky, we will teach you just what you have asked and when we are done if you still want to seek revenge and destroy your village, you can go ahead and do it.” Little Mojo thought for a moment, and realizing that his hatred was so deep and his will for revenge so strong that he could never be talked out of them, said, “Ok, deal, you promise to teach me how to get revenge and destroy my native village and I will do everything you say to learn it.” The Buddhist replied, “Good then, let us begin". So Little Mojo started his studies and his hatred made him the most ardent student the Buddhist had, and Little Mojo, became Maha Mojo. He could tower over mountains, could summon thunder, the earth could quake at his slightest whisper, and he knew he was ready for mayhem. He went to his teacher and said, “So, I can do all this stuff and I think I am ready to get my revenge, do you have anything else to teach me before I go and do it?”  The Buddhist replied, "Oh no,not at all, we have taught you everything, go ahead on and do what you want.” Maha Mojo, crying “Yippie” as loud as he could rushed out of the school and mounted the clouds, assuming the fierce Guru, his rage against his oppressors was boundless and he rode off on dark clouds of thunder, such as no mortal had seen before. So great was the wind that stones were caught up in it, and fell like hail. In the distance with his far-seeing eyes he could see his native village, some who had abused him were already dead, but he would despoil their graves, and and crush their children and grandchildren in the might of his wrath, those who were still alive would feel his revenge for themselves and be abased before him. He glowed at the thought of it. As he grew near he could see their reaction to his approach, they scurried about in terror, and he delighted in the spectacle. As he grew nearer their terror grew greater and finally as he towered above them as ants about his feet, he looked down, and saw them, and little mojo's heart broke as he saw his face on every one of them, and the fear and terror which he had felt as a child came back to him, but he also realized that now, he was no better than they a had been, just a bigger bully with more power, then they could have ever imagined, and they were so small, so helpless, that  his heart broke and as Little Mojo's heart broke, the heart of compassion blossomed within him, and all wish for revenge vanished as if waking from a dream. So little mojo stopped and changed and when he returned to his native village he did destroy his enemies by making them his friends, and laid waste to the old village of prejudice and hate, by teaching his neighbors to build on a foundation of love and understanding.

 
Well, that's the story as best as I can reconstruct it, and I am sorry that, offhand I cannot give a source for it, I've read too many books and this was a long time ago, but that is my understanding of why Buddhist don't care whether people come to them seeking power.

[thelerner]

I like the above posts, but I'm always leery with anything that says join my method and you gain powers and your problems disappear.  I get the feelin, you change, handle things better and wiser, but problems.. same old same old. 

 

No richer, no stronger, no fantastic magic, but you get better at getting out of the way, especially of yourself. 

[Wizz]

Continuing...

 

 

Yes, on the spin feeling/direction of chakras. But, I think it is important that chakras are really only a learned mental map. That is why different traditions all have a totally different number of chakras, primarily dependent if you are focusing on the body or more mental layers. For me, it is more like we are all obscured blobs of "light". First you clear the blob of stuff so that you notice the underlying light, then you go on to expand the blob to include the entire universe.

 

Maybe think of your "black hole" in your chakra concept as like finding the underlying light that I am trying to describe. And as you have pointed out with your "connecting the dots" of MCO, that being like connecting the chakras all into one big energy body "blob".

 

Also, I would personally suggest to not worry about specific connections, like above, maybe instead think about it like you are trying to connect all of the dots. It is the "stuff" that separates the dots that are the obscurations in the first place. The "goal" is more like perfectly clear energy flow though your entire body. Or if you have experienced a "heart orgasm" with your partner, think of it more like a full body heart orgasm.

 

The blob of light (obscured or nonobscured) is the crown chakra viewed from a different energy body. Crown chakra can be seen in many ways not just as a swirling vortex or a blob of light all depending on the energy body you are using. The energy body models itself by a dimension it occupies, while the dimension itself is a universal chakra connected into our own body. We are modeled after the universe, how God or Universe experiences itself we do as well to some degree. There are as many crown chakras as there are main chakras in our bodies. In total there its a collection of 49 chakras that come in sets of 7, each set belonging to a particular dimension or reality we can experience. That's why some people think they can see chakras outside their bodies. Some energy bodies see chakra models and some see blobs of light, both use a different "crown" or mind.

 

At what you describe as "obscured blob of light" the power chakra sits almost outside of it in the form of a powerful focused pointer, which if compared to the "blob" or a "sphere" is like a "pyramid" or a "triangle". The heart chakra is more on the "inside" of this view. The function of the crown chakra is to unite all the chakras in a coherent reality and it also acts as the universal mind. Our root gives us a sense of the body and every other chakra adds a "dimension" to a particular reality.

 

Chakra models seen as swirling vortexes belong to the mental body but there is another type of non-mental body that belongs to the heart level and there the entire infinity and universe is experienced as an endless streams that flows trough flower like chakras. If you would focus on a single chakra in this universe it would resemble the mental view of the chakras because of its circular motion, but it isn't mental. There is a mysterious force that manipulates these infinite chakras to spin in both directions at the same time and also stops them. There are many layers of circulation inside the chakras and colors, some spin slowly some spin in different direction and some don't spin.

 

This is also why Heart - Mind are opposites and relate to each other because it can be seen energetically. The Heart directly connects you with infinity if you manage to experience it as a crown chakra, it just has to be opened wide enough energetically to act as infinity You can do it directly if you have enough energy or you can do it by first practicing other modalities or if someone else shows you how.  Crown openings are just the beginning and only a master and a lineage can guide you trough it as there are many other chakras to be "opened" inside a reality.

 

Yoga scratches the surface with the chakras and it begins with classifying their mental components trough practices of focusing on them as parts of your body but when kundalini enters a chakra then this chakra gets opened at the crown level and you enter into a new energetic dimension. Kundalini is a force that can open every chakra and the force that creates them so when this happens they aren't classic chakras anymore, but transform into what people call "Higher Selves". Depending on the chakra it opens up one of these "selves" can be called "Tao Body" etc.

 

In reality chakras are everything, not just some "points" or "coat buttons". They are "The Seats Of Awareness".

[ladyniguma]

.

 

.

Edited August 9, 2017 by ladyniguma

[Pilgrim]

Hello,

 

Concerning Chakras. I experience them as locations mapped within an analogous spine with different locations. I also experience them as all within Sahasarar. 

 

Chakras being a learned mental map is correct and incorrect as people like myself experienced them long before even knowing what they were called. If one sticks to a map of where they are supposed to be then that is a learned mental map. Better to know than to allow any one idea predominate as to where they are absolutely.

 

There are Chakras that overlap and some that are off to the side. In the end it is really all about modifications to awareness and each as a nexus has an influence. It is Awareness job to be able to cleanly clearly express it's existence no mater when or where it may find itself. A large part of this is familiarity going down then coming back up again from the un-manifest to the manifest.

 

They express bliss, vibrating humming electric and magnetic to there own specific frequency, each are modified planes of existence and one can perceive the different way ones awareness perceives & operates while going up and down.

 

The further down one goes the slower and the more dense, the higher up one goes the less connected like there is more space in between more light,free, less dense, expansive the mind also takes on these characteristics.

 

The chakra in question concerning Kechari is the Lalana or Talu Chakra it is located in the medulla Oblongata, the trigger is the soft pallet. During Kechari this is where breath becomes suspended and Kundalini goes down into the body through Sushumna Vibrating all the chakras.

 

If someone in Kechari decides to move the tongue against the  septum they will encounter very sensitive tissue and will swiftly also discover a direct connection to the pleasure receiving parts of the reproductive organs as well.

 

The rest goes without saying and one may enjoy physical pleasures to an extremely heightened degree.

 

The septum and the ledge above as well as the actual nasal passages are only minor locations and mostly physical in connection. The forward placement of the tongue also runs into a bit of a dead end energetically also as misinformed people seem to think they will get to the point between the brows this way.

 

When the tongue lays against the back wall of the skull and is going straight up into the soft pit above and the flow of current enters a very narrow passageway that is when the actual penetration occurs, all else is just physical mirroring.

 

It is the penetration of this current into Sahasrar where the penetration occurs I am speaking of and here, one knows what it is to be gender complete or completed. This is where one comprehends being the penetrated and the one penetrating at the same time.

 

As far as sharing presence goes, it is up to the individual. To some extent it just happens anyway.

[Jeff]

The blob of light (obscured or nonobscured) is the crown chakra viewed from a different energy body. Crown chakra can be seen in many ways not just as a swirling vortex or a blob of light all depending on the energy body you are using. The energy body models itself by a dimension it occupies, while the dimension itself is a universal chakra connected into our own body. We are modeled after the universe, how God or Universe experiences itself we do as well to some degree. There are as many crown chakras as there are main chakras in our bodies. In total there its a collection of 49 chakras that come in sets of 7, each set belonging to a particular dimension or reality we can experience. That's why some people think they can see chakras outside their bodies. Some energy bodies see chakra models and some see blobs of light, both use a different "crown" or mind.

 

At what you describe as "obscured blob of light" the power chakra sits almost outside of it in the form of a powerful focused pointer, which if compared to the "blob" or a "sphere" is like a "pyramid" or a "triangle". The heart chakra is more on the "inside" of this view. The function of the crown chakra is to unite all the chakras in a coherent reality and it also acts as the universal mind. Our root gives us a sense of the body and every other chakra adds a "dimension" to a particular reality.

 

...

On the "obscured blob of light", I think we are talking about different things. The blob of light was only meant as an example to differentiate between chakras as being points (to be connected). With the light I was attempting to describe, there is nothing to "see" or a different reference point looking at the crown chakra. It is much more about "being" than "seeing". If one is seeing something like that, it is a translation in the "local mind" and is perceived as separate (dualistic).

 

But, I would agree that seeing every chakra as sort of a different dimension (or layer) of perceived reality makes a lot of sense.