Is this martial art hazardous to your longterm health?

[Nungali]

PS. you do realise the style you wan to do is based on Shorin Ryu dont you  ?     

 

Warning : Joining the Japanese military may be hazardous to your your longterm health as well. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Nungali

[Oneironaut]

Sure, I could have put up a vid of a karate guy beating a boxer , but that one, I thought, was a good demo of the issue I was talking about re punching with some forms of karate teaching .... teaching it as  'self -defense'    ( when many street fights,  in my culture, seem to rely on boxing, and flailing and grappling ....  if anything ) .

 

That's the thing. Karate punching is more "self defense" oriented. Boxing isn't and they have no issue going on the aggressive. Muay Thai punching is used to set the opponent up for knees and elbows. Muay Thai isn't a punching art but they incorporated boxing elements into their art to fill the gap. 

 

Street fights are a bad idea going into a different culture. I wouldn't want a Thai kicking at my legs or trying to knee me in the head. Oblique kicks are dirty and so are elbows. They can leave a really nasty cut. 

 

I seen another video of a Thai beating up a boxer really bad but I can't find that one either. The boxer wound up with his arm dangling below the elbow after taking some kicks.

 

 

PS. you do realise the style you wan to do is based on Shorin Ryu dont you  ?

 

I think it'll be an excellent complement to boxing/judo.

 

I'm thinking of taking yoshinkan aikido when I'm able to visit Japan. It's not the wuss/soft style/ineffective aikido that's typically being taught today. Ueshiba made it ineffective with his pacifism. Japanese martial arts (like karate and judo) lost much of their brutality and effectiveness throughout the years because of their desire to appeal to everyone. Screw that. 

 

 

Warning : Joining the Japanese military may be hazardous to your your longterm health as well.

 

Wasn't planning on it. I could still "steal" their martial arts. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Nungali]

That's the thing. Karate punching is more "self defense" oriented. Boxing isn't and they have no issue going on the aggressive. Muay Thai punching is used to set the opponent up for knees and elbows. Muay Thai isn't a punching art but they incorporated boxing elements into their art to fill the gap. 

 

Street fights are a bad idea going into a different culture. I wouldn't want a Thai kicking at my legs or trying to knee me in the head. Oblique kicks are dirty and so are elbows. They can leave a really nasty cut. 

 

yeah .... different culture .... dont take a  karate or aikido 'knife disarm'  to the Philippines !     Those guys scared me !   Some had scars on arms and across face from real fights  

 

Compare ( if you have done any aikido )  ,  tanto usage and style of attack and defense in aikido to this 'old guy' 

 

@ 1:50

 

 

I seen another video of a Thai beating up a boxer really bad but I can't find that one either. The boxer wound up with his arm dangling below the elbow after taking some kicks.

 

 

 

I think it'll be an excellent complement to boxing/judo.

 

Certainly . 

 

 

I'm thinking of taking yoshinkan aikido when I'm able to visit Japan. It's not the wuss/soft style/ineffective aikido that's typically being taught today. Ueshiba made it ineffective with his pacifism. Japanese martial arts (like karate and judo) lost much of their brutality and effectiveness throughout the years because of their desire to appeal to everyone. Screw that. 

 

My understanding was it was his son, and to do with changing a specific terms in the writings into ' love'  'harmony; and such things. This was a post war necessity in an occupied country.  People associated with 'aikido' before then, including Ueshiba, were part of a group that was going to play a part in the new Japanese Empire  of domination.  

 

I have been told about Aikido's peaceful techniques , yet one can find some photos of the Master himself practising the art ; dodge bokken blow and jam end of fan spikes into attacker eyes , stuff like that. 

 

There are pages and pages of great info on this on Aiki web by a qualified researcher , fascinating stuff; history, the dynamics of transition, and inheritance in  JApanese MA  the all important cultural issues of  honne and tatemae , etc  plus that group of 'political' associates of Ueshiba back then were doing some pretty rad  Shinto 'spirit / kamie ' stuff . 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

 

all play their part 

 

Wasn't planning on it. I could still "steal" their martial arts. 

 

 

They will punish you in training for that   ..... you   gaijin  spy !           

[Bearded Dragon]

 

If I walked into a Dojo and a black belt was training like that I'd walk out. It's typical though. They can't get any power into their side kicks in UFC either.

 

Martial arts are less hazardous to your longterm health if you learn to relax. Less impact on your body and things just work better. You connect your body mass into your strikes better and because your body is better connected you tend to absorb things more across your whole structure rather than a localised area.

 

It doesn't really matter what style you do. Relaxation is king.

[Nungali]

When I started Shorin Ryu thats all I heard constantly !    I even got stopped sometimes and had my shoulders massaged and ' "Relax .... relax  ........   now  try again ." 

 

I was never much good at sidekicks. A guy in the Sikiran group I was in for a while was ..... ooomph !  ,  couldn't stop them ... or even see a lot of them coming . 

[Nungali]

Here is Master Sokken  ( he still has a student actively teaching in Australia  and in some other places )  it is a demo / kata of the central form of 'Okinawan Crane' . the family  fighting style, that his grandfather used as personal bodyguard to the last three Okinawan kings  . 

 

Then the Japanese dissolved the kingship and ended the Okinawan 'Samurai'  family traditions .

 

[Oneironaut]

yeah .... different culture .... dont take a  karate or aikido 'knife disarm'  to the Philippines !     Those guys scared me !   Some had scars on arms and across face from real fights  

 

Nothing that a .45 caliber wouldn't be able to take care of. If they could have weapons then so can I.

[Andrei]

 

[thelerner]

Scary thing is, I pretty much agree with the first video.  Usually his videos are total parodies, yet what he says here about the upper block is, in my book, true.  Blocking when you're close enough to get hit is playing a dangerous game of reflexes.  Better to move in, move out or shift your body. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by thelerner

[Nungali]

Nothing that a .45 caliber wouldn't be able to take care of. If they could have weapons then so can I.

 

HA !   Riiight  .   Friend showed me a photo of Sikiran Grand Master relaxing at home in a spar, with a high holster (above the water line ) with a pearl handled silver plated revolver in it. 

 

You think they dont have .45s there ?  

 

Anyway ...  carry on ... experience is the better teacher anyway  .  

[Nungali]

Scary thing is, I pretty much agree with the first video.  Usually his videos are total parodies, yet what he says here about the upper block is, in my book, true.  Blocking when you're close enough to get hit is playing a dangerous game of reflexes.  Better to move in, move out or shift your body. 

 

 

Okay, let's play with it   ( I will be Master Ken     ) 

 

Consider;  many techniques a la JKA seem partial and misunderstood or held back , like the use of retracting hand when punching. 

 

Now, when I was first taught the Upper block ( a la early Shotokan / JKA ) it was even 'worse' ;

 

1. Assume  left Zenkutsudashi, left arm in downward block position, right fist at hip.

 

2. Slide right foot into and next to left, keep knees bent, extend   left arm straight out and up at 45 degrees palm open fingers together and extended. pointing up.

 

3. Slide right foot forward and out to right ZKD , retract the  left arm to the hip  ( while making a fist ) while the right comes forward and up following the path of the retracting other arm    ( when I asked about this I was told it was to 'sight the block'  )  and end up in right ZKD in the classic upward block pose. 

 

 

What the hell did I know ?  I was young and never done martial arts before (just a bit of wrestling at the Police Boys Club ) . 

 

Now aside from this being maybe somehow beneficial for beginners there are obvious problems with it. The shotokan instructor we train with said they dont do that right hand extension first anymore. 

 

I asked him to go into full strong ZKD in a pose like he was  punching ( oitsuki ) to my head.  I slapped his hand away and said try again, stronger. he got really strong and I pushed it away, stronger and I moved it off line with one finger then: "If I can just slap the hand away or duck or weave and slap ( or duck, weave ,  'block and sting'  , ie. hit with a knuckle on a pressure point at the attaching hand wrist arm )  why do this massive overpowered and dangerous block ? "

[Nungali]

<posting probs so I split it >

 

Then we tried this; I did the 'block" as above but used the 'offside' hand extension to knock the incoming punch up and moved in using the block as an elbow to the face, as I was moved into a forward and low ZKD , it was a little low, near the chin and my forearm  rammed into just below his shoulder joint on his upper arm, 

 

He goes :  'I reckon I could have punched around and got you in the head with my other arm then ."

 

"Okay, let's amp it up "  ... he came in fast and I responded fast, prob was as he punched around his head followed around a bit and my fuller force upper 'block' powered by momentum and sinking into ZKD hit him elbow first in the mouth !   He staggered back, somehow no blood and still had all his teeth .  Well , that was an eye opener ! 

 

But wait, lets add a bit  more ; with reverse ZKD ( now my other leg is forward ) and slow it down but keep the flow.   This time, slower and more carefully,  he rolled  his head back with the elbow, to avoid another hit, but as I retracted my other arm to my hip, I gabbed his left  arm/wrist and pulled it in to hip, he went down  and I stopped his fall with my arm just as he was about to land back first, arched over my bent and extended front leg .    

 

Deflect, 'enter'  elbow strike, take down, back 'break' .     We didnt try it   full speed. 

 

PS, the leading first hand deflection could also strike in while deflecting, with fingers thrust at eye. 

 

Also, we only practiced this as defence against oitsuki    ,   that's a 'qualifier' in itself. 

 

~  next week  , 101 uses of 'gedan bari '    

Edited March 10, 2016 by Nungali

[Nungali]

' Variation '  ? 

 

 

 

and, like much of karate , was based on the sword equivalent ; 

 

 

 

 

 

( I went to a great seminar given by Dave Brown -  Aiki - kai  on  how  much of aikido and karate are based on  sword movements  .   Dave did a lot of cross training, including with  'Hard  Style'  karate . )

Edited March 10, 2016 by Nungali

[Michael Sternbach]

Well, I once reflexively used an upward block to successfully defend ward off a downward smash with a comparatively harmless object (it was meant to be a "joke"). If done more to the side, the move can also be used to block a roundhouse punch ("haymaker").

 

But as Nungali demonstrated, what looks like an upward block (i.e. in kata) is often better looked at as a forearm strike, which is a surprisingly useful technique.

 

[thelerner]

 

"Okay, let's amp it up "  ... he came in fast and I responded fast, prob was as he punched around his head followed around a bit and my fuller force upper 'block' powered by momentum and sinking into ZKD hit him elbow first in the mouth !   He staggered back, somehow no blood and still had all his teeth .  Well , that was an eye opener ! 

 

But wait, lets add a bit  more ; with reverse ZKD ( now my other leg is forward ) and slow it down but keep the flow.   This time, slower and more carefully,  he rolled  his head back with the elbow, to avoid another hit, but as I retracted my other arm to my hip, I gabbed his left  arm/wrist and pulled it in to hip, he went down  and I stopped his fall with my arm just as he was about to land back first, arched over my bent and extended front leg .    

 

Deflect, 'enter'  elbow strike, take down, back 'break' .     We didnt try it   full speed. 

 

PS, the leading first hand deflection could also strike in while deflecting, with fingers thrust at eye. 

I'm all for the block that is simultaneously an attack.  That's (one of) the heart of the Aiki sword. 

I suppose body motion, is often the difference between the 2. 

[GreytoWhite]

My understanding was it was his son, and to do with changing a specific terms in the writings into ' love'  'harmony; and such things. This was a post war necessity in an occupied country.  People associated with 'aikido' before then, including Ueshiba, were part of a group that was going to play a part in the new Japanese Empire  of domination.  

 

I have been told about Aikido's peaceful techniques , yet one can find some photos of the Master himself practising the art ; dodge bokken blow and jam end of fan spikes into attacker eyes , stuff like that. 

 

There are pages and pages of great info on this on Aiki web by a qualified researcher , fascinating stuff; history, the dynamics of transition, and inheritance in  JApanese MA  the all important cultural issues of  honne and tatemae , etc  plus that group of 'political' associates of Ueshiba back then were doing some pretty rad  Shinto 'spirit / kamie ' stuff . 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

 

all play their part 

 

 

 

They will punish you in training for that   ..... you   gaijin  spy !           

 

Aye, Moriteru never had aiki because the older ones didn't teach him so he changed a lot of the terminology and within one generation the "official" line of the art has no martial practicality. Many of the "mystical" sayings from Ueshiba Aiki is pretty much the Chinese internals brought to late 19th century Japan by a Buddhist monk who trained Takeda Sokaku in meditation. Stanley Pranin and Chris Li have both done a lot of work unraveling the ball of yarn as to just where aiki disappeared to and from whence it came. 

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"I'm all for the block that is simultaneously an attack."

-----

 

Yes - we have a "drilling punch" like this.

 

And kicking too.

 

A punching (or kicking) that uses any contact as another lever to get inside opponent arm or leg both hitting and blocking.

 

Maybe I cannot find example video online, or maybe so.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Nungali]

I'm all for the block that is simultaneously an attack.  That's (one of) the heart of the Aiki sword. 

I suppose body motion, is often the difference between the 2. 

 

yes.    A few times I have tried to get this across with sword as well, with 'body motion', the concept of ' cut / exit '   a kill should be done while exiting out of range.  Not much point ducking under and slashing the belly if the dead guys sword continues with momentum to cut you.  I like to cut, if I can, eg', lower part of kill zone on sword cutting and checking the others arms, while the upper part cuts the neck ( cutting up or down)  while you are on the outside,  turning and exit while you are checking the others arms and preventing a follow with your blade, and exit out with a sliding cut to the wrist, etc.  

 

Kaokirutsuki - sliding cut / thrust to the face , is an excellent example of this; the attack is a 'floating sword' technique, one 'blocks' and deflects any attempted counter as one is cutting ,  double punch can work the same way    (as can single punch ) 

 

First 'count' ( 3 moves) of the first kata  ( Hien / Pinan)  is also a good example   ( well, if you got the right bunkai ) 2nd move  can be simultaneous block punch  ( same guy that got the mouth elbow also disputed the efficacy of this technique     ... Dude, if it is simultaneous block counter ... you have to simultaneous attack / counter !   ) 

 

Another point I often make with sword and body motion ; dont flail you sword around , many of your  cuts can be with minimal arm movement, its the body movement that does a lot of it. 

 

 

Check some of Mr Sugarno's move /flow / body motion   (  I trained with his son a bit  ... he used to attend school when he was younger in my home town ... he taught me proper 'floating' technique for ' Kaokirutsuki'  ) ....   using 18 Jo kata bunkai against bokken from  2;30

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Aye, Moriteru never had aiki because the older ones didn't teach him so he changed a lot of the terminology and within one generation the "official" line of the art has no martial practicality. Many of the "mystical" sayings from Ueshiba Aiki is pretty much the Chinese internals brought to late 19th century Japan by a Buddhist monk who trained Takeda Sokaku in meditation. Stanley Pranin and Chris Li have both done a lot of work unraveling the ball of yarn as to just where aiki disappeared to and from whence it came. 

 

 I never heard my last Aiki-kai instructor mention the world 'ki' ... nor give any explanation of  those 'energy exercises / warm ups '  that Aiki does, what  they were, what was supposed to be happening   or what they were supposed to be doing, or what one was supposed to be visualising , etc . 

 

Why was I told 'it is rude to ask ' ?    Why did the instructor not seem to know ?  Why are they teaching things that seem wrong and inefficient ?  (yes, I did learn a lot of an Aiki -kai instructor about sword, but he closed the club eventually, on the last day, he was still very curious about me, when others had departed he wanted to 'see if you can kill me'  'outside training', he attacked, I evaded and just held my sword out sideways with the tip resting between his ribs over his heart.  he was surprised and "Oh ... I am dead." 

 

To me it was the most obvious and basic technique ... and his attack was bad and unrealistic ... 'too much dojo' . 

 

 

 

But where is it going ?    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On a more serious note  ,,,,  GtW  ..... check some of these out , Peter Goldsworthy   (indeed it is worthy  gold ! )   ..... boy did it answer a hell of a lot of questions for me I had about discrepancies, confusions, and a whole lot of trips I thought was going on ....   but couldnt identify.

 

Peter has done a brilliant job;

 

" Transmission , Inheritance and emulation. " 

 

 

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1053310

Edited March 10, 2016 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Re:

-----

"I'm all for the block that is simultaneously an attack."

-----

 

Yes - we have a "drilling punch" like this.

 

And kicking too.

 

A punching (or kicking) that uses any contact as another lever to get inside opponent arm or leg both hitting and blocking.

 

Maybe I cannot find example video online, or maybe so.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

 

I think I know what you mean without Vid ....   but dont even know the term myself , to type in for search .    ' defecting 'block' that continues as stike '  ?     cant find one  ? ? ? 

 

Is this relatively unknown ?     Hmmmm .... like Master Ken  " I like  that it is unknown ... keep it that way .... then  Australia-do-te  can whip their arse ! "    

[Andrei]

 

[Nungali]

 

 

dont you just want to charge into the middle   and  ......  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

Oh man  .....    

 

 

I never watched more than a few seconds of 'Jedi Gym' before ....    but now     .....  that guy that popped the ball ...   the one with the little helmet on top of the big head ....

 

Oh ...  Jesus !     

 

 

I'm tappin out  -  but it won't stop  ...    

[Gerard]

You are very yin. IMO Xingyiquan is an internal art that would be very beneficial to you as it is a lot more yang than the rest of the neijia.

 

Here's a

.

 

Have fun.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Gerard

[Andrei]

Yep, Xingyi, Taiji, Baji, Bagua the royals of martial arts.