Is this martial art hazardous to your longterm health?

[Oneironaut]

 

 

I've never taken kyokushin but I really like the system. It scares me off though because the training appears to be really brutal. On the other hand those guys can endure some vicious beatings and you can't really hurt their body due to their conditioning. I seen Muay Thai guys (with shins developed to be as hard as a ball bat) hit the body of a kyokushin practitioners over and over again AT FULL FORCE for the duration of a fight and these karate guys do not go down and keep coming at the Thai's like a raging bull. I believe they use iron shirt and other forms of qigong (kiko in Japanese) throughout their practices. Pretty insane. 

 

So I need some opinions. Should I even consider taking this if I'm concerned for my long term health and does a well conditioned body stay strong and healthy after many years?

 

[Chang]

Others may give their opinion regarding the suitability of such training for you and generally.

 

The fact of the matter however is that there is really only one one way to find out for sure and that is to give it a go.

 

I prefer the subtlety of the taoist martial arts myself but I can well see the attraction of kyokushin, especially to the young male.

[Michael Sternbach]

Of course this kind of MA training can be hazardous to health. For a related discussion of the pros and cons of heavy contact sparring, see

 

http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/99-general-martial-arts/15827-deep-thoughts.html

 

from post #13 onwards.

[thelerner]

Nothing wrong with hard training but don't cripple yourself, not now and not in the future with arthritis, a common,  painful ailment for those who abused bones and joints in there younger age.  It's a real bane for older martial artists.  

 

The second video shows someone hitting hard, full force, but he's hitting padding.  That seems good.  Imo, You can develop power without heavy calluses that come from hitting and being hit repeatedly.  Intense is good, masochistic is not.  At times its a fine line.  Its good to talk to older members to see how well they're doing physically, what injuries they have gotten and are common.

 

If you become a long time martial artist, no mugging will ever steal close to amount of money you've paid for lessons and (probably) no beating will match the pain you'll get if you've spent 20 years tearing down your body faster then it can repair itself. 

[Nungali]

Certain precautions can be taken when practicing techniques to minimize the damage .... like when kicking ...   3 guys in my club have problem knees, one has a knee replacement . I had 2 instructors die of MS  ... probably a  coincidence though ? 

 

One time I tried training at this different club, just about everyone had joint supports on , on various joints.  The instructor rushed over to me on the first night "Dont  practice like that .... when you get over 40 your joints will be worn out. " 

 

Me ;  "  I'm closer to 50 than  I am to 40 !  "

 

Him;       

 

( I left soon after that,  at the end of 'Aikido'  training, they did a little Aikido ritual, 'eyes closed' meditation and  said some prayers  for club members and said thank you " in the name of jesus Christ, Amen " , all crossed themselves, stood bowed and finished.   .......   I never did Aikido in the name of Jesus Christ before !    )

[idquest]

In any sport you train to win; and you don't train to get healthy. That is your priority is different. You could train MA with a partner for health though if your goal of training with a partner is to polish your 'listening' skills rather than defeat your partner.

[Andrei]

I trained in Kyokushin when I was younger, I would say avoid it if you don't have a thick constitution i.e. thick and short bones and thick limbs. 

For body conditioning we did a lot of Sanchin kata, especially with sensei hitting us everywere on the body same way they do in Shaolin with sticks, except that in Kyokushin you are punched and kicked.

 

 

 

something like that:

 

[Oneironaut]

I trained in Kyokushin when I was younger, I would say avoid it if you don't have a thick constitution i.e. thick and short bones and thick limbs. 

For body conditioning we did a lot of Sanchin kata, especially with sensei hitting us everywere on the body same way they do in Shaolin with sticks, except that in Kyokushin you are punched and kicked.

 

How many years did you practice for and how is your body feeling? 

 

I'm short (5'5) and naturally quick and powerful. I gain muscle mass and strength very quickly as well. I'm pretty sure I'll see immediate benefits from full contact sparring and intense conditioning but I don't wanna abuse myself to the point that I start regretting it later on in life. 

 

I was wondering what that odd breathing was all about. I see that they call it sanchin. Thanks for that. 

 

Also, where did the kyokushin guys develop their punching from? Is it in the original kata from the goju ryu and shotokan lineages? Their punches resemble that of boxers. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Michael Sternbach]

Also, where did the kyokushin guys develop their punching from? Is it in the original kata from the goju ryu and shotokan lineages? Their punches resemble that of boxers. 

 

I have been training in both Kyokushinkai and Shotokan. I can assure you that that kind of punching isn't found in any traditional forms, not even in Kyokushin ones. Neither is it part of the style's vast technical curriculum. Kyokushin fighting has been compared kick-boxing, and that's quite on the mark.

 

If you have a particular school in mind, you may also want to find out if they actually advocate full contact in their training. Not all the schools do.

[GreytoWhite]

Kyokushin is a hybrid style of karate developed by a Korean man who took the name Mas Oyama. It's a fusion of some unknown gong fu he learned from a Chinese farmer, Shotokan, and Goju-ryu. Later in life he exchanged students with the founder of Taikiken - Kenichi Sawai. Kenichi learned Yiquan from Yao Zongxun and later adapted his training into Taikiken. Some Kyokushin branches emphasize standing meditation which can be helpful for your body's recovery.

 

That said, I don't recommend some Kyokushin schools if you are looking to stay as injury free as possible. Any style school where you spar with experienced people that are mature and willing to let you successfully use techniques to learn is good. Overtraining and getting hurt is not good. I personally would recommend a good gong fu school or jiu jitsu gym. Filipino stick fighting can be really fun too.

[Nungali]

Stick fighting drills are fun !    

 

 

But fighting, you either use  full armour  (restrictive)   , no armour  ( crazy ) , pull the blows ( not realistic - but thats what we do ,,, e should probably use gloves though  )  , or part armour ... seems the best   

 

 

BUT ;

 

 

watch from 23:28  -  24:33    

 

 

 

[Nungali]

So, for training , I came up with this solution, and worked on the 'stick' instead, (after a few trials  of  "Owww !  That still hurts bad ! " through to it being too flexible and wobbly,  I came up with this .;

 

Carefully selected piece of bamboo, uniform and right width ( for rigidity and a bit of weight  ) 

 

Inside  a tight fitting piece of electrical conduit pipe    (  safety as bamboo can split and shred , and also adds some strength )

 

 

 

 

and then inside some hot water pipe insulation tubing  ( padding )  

 

 

 

 

Make the last layer longer than the others (padding for thrusts )   and insert a rubber stopper into the end of the conduit, glue and squeeze the foam over the stopper.   They last a fair while and are easy and cheap to make and replace. 

 

No thrusts to face or throat, a trust to the throat can be lowered to the chest, but considered as higher.  No lasting damage , but you can feel it when you get hit, 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Nungali

[Oneironaut]

I have been training in both Kyokushinkai and Shotokan. I can assure you that that kind of punching isn't found in any traditional forms, not even in Kyokushin ones. Neither is it part of the style's vast technical curriculum. Kyokushin fighting has been compared kick-boxing, and that's quite on the mark. If you have a particular school in mind, you may also want to find out if they actually advocate full contact in their training. Not all the schools do.

 

Then how did Enshin karate (A kyokushin offshoot) get the exact same boxing punches as well? 

 

 

I thought that traditional karate guys chambered while punching (during actual combat) but it appears that they don't. They actually keep their hands up in a guard (from what I seen in Goju Ryu) and that's really cool. Other forms of karate resemble wing chun in my opinion (like in the video below).

 

 

I've heard that karate guys use speedy, confusing (yet highly effective) footwork. They actually move as much if not more than boxers and that's also a good thing. Can someone introduce me? 

 

I'm concerned about the head movement though. I don't think I've seen karatekas really move their heads out of the way of punches. One of the karatekas in the video below showed some head movement but then again shotokan guys seem to like fighting at kicking range. 

 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Michael Sternbach]

Then how did Enshin karate (A kyokushin offshoot) get the exact same boxing punches as well? 

 

 

Your question implies the answer, that is, they took it straight out of Kyokushin and boxing, respectively.

 

I thought that traditional karate guys chambered while punching (during actual combat) but it appears that they don't. They actually keep their hands up in a guard (from what I seen in Goju Ryu) and that's really cool.

 

Yes, they keep the non-punching hand up in a guard in sparring. Retracting it as done in the forms (besides being a training tool) generally means that you are pulling an opponent in close by that hand.

 

Other forms of karate resemble wing chun in my opinion (like in the video below).

 

 

This also resembles how practitioners of Praying Mantis and Kenpo Karate tend to punch - more of a South Chinese approach.

 

I've heard that karate guys use speedy, confusing (yet highly effective) footwork. They actually move as much if not more than boxers and that's also a good thing. Can someone introduce me? 

 

I'm not an advocate of that. As Musashi said, hopping leads to an unstable mind.

 

I'm concerned about the head movement though. I don't think I've seen karatekas really move their heads out of the way of punches.

 

No, bobbing and weaving are not encouraged in traditional Karate which emphasizes keeping the body upright. It is fair to say that it represents a somewhat stiff approach to fighting.

 

One of the karatekas in the video below showed some head movement but then again shotokan guys seem to like fighting at kicking range. 

 

 

This linear kind of long range fighting, partially inspired by Jigen-ryu (a sword fighting school), was introduced after Gichin Funakoshi had brought Karate from Okinawa to the Japanese main island. His son Gigo and other seniors were instrumental in that, much to the master's dismay. On Okinawa there had been little sparring, the training consisted mostly of learning forms (kata) and their proper application (bunkai); it included pressure point strikes (kyusho-jitsu), 'sticky hands' (kakie), grappling (tuite) and advanced methods of power generation (hakkei).

 

This profound body of martial knowledge was not generally transmitted to the Japanese instructors who emphasized the sportive/competitive aspects, where there was little room for close combat (oops, a pun) and any techniques that were overly devastating. Thus the gap between basic techniques and (poorly understood) forms on the one hand, sparring on the other usually seen in the Japanese styles today.

 

Fortunately, there is an increasing number of instructors in Western countries who are going back to their art's Okinawan roots and do their best to recover its lost aspects.

 

 

Where free sparring is part of the practice, having a set of rules to keep contestants from maiming and killing each other is mandatory, of course. Even the roughest "anything goes" kind of styles have that. Here is an example of typical Kyokushin sparring (light contact, as usual during ordinary training sessions). Mind that there are no head punches and grappling allowed, which influences how the fighters are positioning themselves and moving, and inevitably detracts from realism in terms of street defence.

 

 

I agree with Nungali that the best approach to fighting practice today is using protective gear that allows for a wider technical variety and a degree of realism - even though caution still always needs to be exercised.

[thelerner]

Michael S. you're preaching traditional old style Kara te.   Which is what I learned doing Shotokan in the late 70's.  Some modern dojo's have gotten increasingly influenced by boxing (& MMA) these days.  Not without reason but it hurts the purity of the art, imo. 

 

Some styles had wonderful kata's filled with dynamic tension that built muscle and general toughness. 

[Michael Sternbach]

Michael S. you're preaching traditional old style Kara te. Which is what I learned doing Shotokan in the late 70's.

If your school taught you all of what I referred to above (kyusho, tuite etc), then you were lucky indeed. Most so-called traditional schools don't!

 

Some modern dojo's have gotten increasingly influenced by boxing (& MMA) these days. Not without reason but it hurts the purity of the art, imo.

I'm not against innovation if it is based on sound considerations, and that will generally include going back to the half forgotten roots of the art. A negative example seems to be including boxing type hooks. Even professional boxers frequently injure their hands when they throw them without the protection of the bandage on gloves in a street situation.

 

Some styles had wonderful kata's filled with dynamic tension that built muscle and general toughness.

They still do. Especially Sanchin kata in Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu and (due to Goju's influence) Kyokushinkai (see Andrei's post above). Like much of Okinawan Karate, this is an import from Fujian White Crane Kung Fu.

[Andrei]

How many years did you practice for and how is your body feeling?

 

I'm short (5'5) and naturally quick and powerful. I gain muscle mass and strength very quickly as well. I'm pretty sure I'll see immediate benefits from full contact sparring and intense conditioning but I don't wanna abuse myself to the point that I start regretting it later on in life.

 

I was wondering what that odd breathing was all about. I see that they call it sanchin. Thanks for that.

 

Also, where did the kyokushin guys develop their punching from? Is it in the original kata from the goju ryu and shotokan lineages? Their punches resemble that of boxers.

 

I trained for 2 years but I quit afterwards I was beaten by a kung fu guy, I started learn wushu and taichi because I was too lean for kyokushin. I should have done bodybuilding in parallel to be good at it but at that time I was not eating properly although I really liked the toughness of the style. The only disadvantage in kyokushin is that you develop bad habits for the punches to the face since they are not allowed. 

 

If I would recommend you a karate style it would be Ashihara which is similar to Sanshou except the punches to the face.  In Japan there are karate competitions with full contact and Plexiglas face mask but I don't know which style I suppose they are open tournaments, but other styles are a joke, usually Kyokushin and Ashihara dominates these competitions.

Oyama introduced boxing punches and low kicks after he was fighting in Thailand with Thai boxers, so he saw the effectiveness of the techniques on himself.

 

After he was beaten by an obscure Chen taichi master in Hong Kong he started to introduce in Kyokushin curriculum some Taichi techniques and breathing but that breathing is plain stupidity in my opinion, I don't know where they took it from, probably from Okinawan karate which is from White Crane kung fu or something Chinese Southern Shaolin . In my opinion Sanchin comes from Praying Mantis but in Praying Mantis they don't breath like that, anyway the Japanese took the worse from Chinese and made it even worse.

But other than that the best martial in my opinion is Sambo or Sanshou.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

",,,but that breathing is plain stupidity in my opinion, I don't know where they took it from, probably from Okinawan karate which is from White Crane kung fu or something Chinese Southern Shaolin "

-----

 

Looking at sanchin kata video, I see techniques that look like bits of shorthand of the two Ta Mo classics.

 

Very very simplified.

 

Southern gongfu exercises like Tid Sin Kuen showing more complex derivation from these classics, but tiny simple bits also visible in karate form.

 

And the breathing - looking like they at one time saw the originals, but extremely simplified these too.

 

Studying this karate versions would probably set people eventually looking for original way - looking to gongfu schools.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Nungali]

Then how did Enshin karate (A kyokushin offshoot) get the exact same boxing punches as well? 

 

 

Many Japanese ( remnant JKA) karateka learnt the hard way    ... they got KOed by boxers because they  ... well, had a shit punching technique.  

 

 

 

 

 

I can counter just about any 'demo technique' from my instructor, just by keeping 'hand up'  retracting the non punching hand to the hip is asking for it !   Unless you do it when it is supposed  to be done . 

 

I thought that traditional karate guys chambered while punching (during actual combat) but it appears that they don't. They actually keep their hands up in a guard (from what I seen in Goju Ryu) and that's really cool. Other forms of karate resemble wing chun in my opinion (like in the video below).

 

 

But that is Shorin Ryu .....   you cant compare  us       to those other ones that practiced a  degraded form .   

 

It mostly comes from white crane style, mixed with some grappling, throws and takedowns from traditional Okinawan 'wrestling' . In Seito Shorin Ryu (my present instructor's style)  the central form is hakatsuru - crane form.  he learnt it from

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nishihira_Kosei

 

who learnt it from

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohan_S%C5%8Dken  ( who left Okinawa and was not effected by the 'degredation' * 

 

and he  from his uncle and he from

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohan_S%C5%8Dken

 

 

I've heard that karate guys use speedy, confusing (yet highly effective) footwork. They actually move as much if not more than boxers and that's also a good thing. Can someone introduce me? 

 

I would go outside of modern JKA karate for that 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm concerned about the head movement though. I don't think I've seen karatekas really move their heads out of the way of punches. One of the karatekas in the video below showed some head movement but then again shotokan guys seem to like fighting at kicking range. 

 

 

 

I started with a mainstream 'famous' Shotokan teacher ,,, he looked like he had a steel girder connecting his head to shoulders , occasionally it  moved rear wards a bit,  especially when watching a front kick, even from a distance !    

 

Another guy, known as a deadly fighter (even though quiet old ) , watching him deal with a punk at the pub. Punk throws a left jab, old guy moves nothing but his head to the right - missed.  A right jab, same other side.  Then "Okay, now its my turnnnn ..."

 

before the nnnn s had finished , wham ... KO flat out.  Old guy takes a pack of cigarettes out of punks  top shirt pocket, takes one, puts the pack back, takes his lighter, lights fag, decides to keep the lighter, and turns to walk back to the pokkies , then stops, looks at the whole pub and 

 

"Any one else got a problem ?" 

 

The whole pub                   ....      

 

 

Many a time I have counfounded a training partner in karate with a very simple  counter or technique.    Another variation was a guy from another style training with me ; "  I cant handle this, why do you shape up like that. I was always told to keep my guard up to protect my head, you just stand there with your arms dangling , whats with that?"

 

Me; " Well, have you been able to punch me in the head ?  No.  Actually, I want you to attack my head, thats why I am standing here like this, even angling it forward a bit, like a sucker. But you might notice, when we close, I do have hands up  (and 'legs up' for low defense ....  well, legs up when needed ... otherwise it gets really tricky     )

 

 

*  from real fighting art , to decimation of form and teachers due to WWII invasion of Okinawa , to the victors asking the defeated to teach them their secret fighting arts - yeah riiight ! ) , to it being turned into a P.E. format for Japanese primary school students, then to a sport  with rules and restrictions . 

[Nungali]

 

This is ancient ... and Kanezawa was my first teacher;s ( iron rod  neck guy )  instructor. 

 

Consider that a ritual .   In such competitions I have even won against guys that would have creamed me in real life, as I did the techniques the way the judges (JKA 'inspectors' )  wanted and he didnt. I got points and he didnt . he got so infuriated during the match they actually stopped and warned him if he hurt me or used an 'unapproved technique' he would be disqualified from the whole tournament !    Those guys got away with some throws and grappling due to their high dan ranking, there kepe a fuller range of techniques - not for below 3rd dan ... back in those days . 

 

My instructor and Shorin ryu incorporates them from the beginning , but really one should enter this type of training from black belt level - or equivalent . 

[Nungali]

Excellent post Michael !     Take another Dan  

Your question implies the answer, that is, they took it straight out of Kyokushin and boxing, respectively.

 

  , and they kept getting punched in the head by boxers     

 

Cross train folks - cross train ! 

 

 

Yes, they keep the non-punching hand up in a guard in sparring. Retracting it as done in the forms (besides being a training tool) generally means that you are pulling an opponent in close by that hand.

 

Yep, Thats one reason. 

 

This also resembles how practitioners of Praying Mantis and Kenpo Karate tend to punch - more of a South Chinese approach.

 Many Okinawans went to  south China to polish their skills , and some came to Okinawa .

 

was  Chinto  from South China ?   Kwang Shang Fu (Kushanku)  was , supposedly , the one whose visit and teaching resulted in Kusanku form and kata . 

 

 

I'm not an advocate of that. As Musashi said, hopping leads to an unstable mind.

 

 

 

The other day I watched a youtube    some karate style Vs some other karate style ;

 

" Begin ! "   Both assume a short zenkutsu, hands up  and while maintaining position begin hopping up and down at each other in the stance .

 

< presses 'stop play ' > 

 

 

 

 

No, bobbing and weaving are not encouraged in traditional Karate which emphasizes keeping the body upright. It is fair to say that it represents a somewhat stiff approach to fighting.

 

 

This linear kind of long range fighting, partially inspired by Jigen-ryu (a sword fighting school), was introduced after Gichin Funakoshi had brought Karate from Okinawa to the Japanese main island. His son Gigo and other seniors were instrumental in that, much to the master's dismay. On Okinawa there had been little sparring, the training consisted mostly of learning forms (kata) and their proper application (bunkai); it included pressure point strikes (kyusho-jitsu), 'sticky hands' (kakie), grappling (tuite) and advanced methods of power generation (hakkei).

 

Yes, good observation !   There was fighting though ..... real and nasty . One 'master' claimed defeat on another by climbing up a tree. laying in wait for him, then dropping onto him as he passed below, breaking his neck ! 

 

One just cant envision Master Funakoshi behaving that way !  

 

 

This has been up before, and you are prob familiar with it, but its a neat little demo of  what is behind Okinawan 'form'  , and many may not realise what happened or what is going on in 'karate' . 

 

 but still, even this is not anything goes  (as it is a sport with rules)  .....  you get hit in the nuts and then get time to recover ! ? ! ?    ... not in real fight ya dont ! 

 

 

 

This profound body of martial knowledge was not generally transmitted to the Japanese instructors who emphasized the sportive/competitive aspects, where there was little room for close combat (oops, a pun) and any techniques that were overly devastating. Thus the gap between basic techniques and (poorly understood) forms on the one hand, sparring on the other usually seen in the Japanese styles today.

 

Fortunately, there is an increasing number of instructors in Western countries who are going back to their art's Okinawan roots and do their best to recover its lost aspects.

 

Yes, that is spreading.  We got one permanent student that is an instructor for Shotokan  ( shhh )  ... and the occasional visitor instructor  ( I told you my story about being asked to show another one some stuff and to 'park out the back and come in the back door     "     

 

... he again, I am not trying to make a 'business' out of it .  

 

[Time for another Nungali story ;  this above guy has a club with a name and a sign and everything    , its on his car too, and his wifes car, a little gay pink metro courier thing  . Well, one day, his car must have been off and he borrowed hers . I saw it stopped ahead at the traffic lights "Ahhh , there is that car ... and now he is driving it, and its full of big guys crammed into it."

 

So I pull up near it - on his blind side. The other guys look like other karate instructors to me, its Saturday, so probably all going to some tournament .   One looks at me and I sneer at him.  He looks angry so I sneer more, look at the pink car, and show him my limp wrist, mouth " so and so's karate club " reading the side of the car and mime LOL .   Now he looks furious  and I glare back at him and mime "Pull over and I'll have ya ! " 

 

Now, looking like an enraged bull he tells the others, the other three are now at the windows gnashing at me  

 

Theh the driver  ( the one I taught some some stuff too , looks over ferociously, then recognises me and his face goes " Arrrr  faaark !  "   and I can see he is telling the others who I am ... they all start laughing and giving me the finger and waving sais at me    .....    then I did a wheelie and burned them off at the lights, then cut them off in a lange change      

 

with them chasing me ... and laughing    .....    hmmm , I wonder what any onlookers thought 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where free sparring is part of the practice, having a set of rules to keep contestants from maiming and killing each other is mandatory, of course. Even the roughest "anything goes" kind of styles have that. Here is an example of typical Kyokushin sparring (light contact, as usual during ordinary training sessions). Mind that there are no head punches and grappling allowed, which influences how the fighters are positioning themselves and moving, and inevitably detracts from realism in terms of street defence.

 

Yes,  they didnt actually do 'sparring'  at 'HQ'. One guy didnt understand that  and when visiting Okinawa, after training (and this isnt in a dojo or anything ) he just shaped up to teacher , he thought it meant spar, teacher thought it meant fight - he immediately lept at him  (not hopped )  let lose with a flying right roundhouse kick (feint) and landed with  a left roundhouse kick to the outside of the others knee.   

 

Oooops !  Big misunderstanding ..... the guy had to get taken to hospital.     "  He want to fight me .... fight ME ? !  " 

 

" No no Senasi  !   He didnt mean that , he meant spa .... like sport  ."

 

" Spa ... sport ?  No ... train or fight , that it ! "   ...    

 

 

 

I agree with Nungali that the best approach to fighting practice today is using protective gear that allows for a wider technical variety and a degree of realism - even though caution still always needs to be exercised.

 

 

Better, not best ;

 

You heard this one yet ? 

 

A town had a boxing instructor, a karate instructor, a judo instructor and an aikido instructor. One friday night  at the pub, all hell breaks loose .  The boxing instructor is in a corner punching out anyone near enough to threaten him. The karate instructor is kicking people in the head, the judo instructor is throwing people left right and centre . 

[Oneironaut]

Many Japanese ( remnant JKA) karateka learnt the hard way    ... they got KOed by boxers because they  ... well, had a shit punching technique.  

 

 

You do realize those are "taekwondo" WHITE BELTS right? I know it's taekwondo (not karate) because it's written behind the guys gi at 1:13 in the video. And there's 0 power generation behind their kicks therefore they likely play tag instead of fighting because their school doesn't believe in full contact sparring. 

 

The taekwondo fella caught one of the boxers clean at 2:09. I've seen a video on YouTube (which unfortunately I can no longer find) under the karate vs boxing label. The boxer came with swift and crisp combinations but the karate guy was nowhere to be found because of his footwork. The karate guy came back on the offensive with some hand strikes (which the boxer blocked with his 16 oz gloves) and the karate guy snuck in a very similar kick (like the one at 2:09) and caught the boxer square on the head. There was actual power behind the kick and the boxer fell back like a wooden block and laid there stiff. He looked lifeless. 

 

On another note taekwondo has HORRIBLE punching. They may as well not have any. I know because I took taekwondo as a kid and quit at yellow belt. I've also taken 3 years of boxing and 1.5 years of judo. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Oneironaut]

I would go outside of modern JKA karate for that 

 

Filipino martial arts? If I go back to the boxing gym and spring back into shape I'll be moving like Mayweather in months to come. I don't see what filipino martial arts would give me in terms of footwork that boxing hasn't already. I think I'll check out the nearest shotokan school instead. 

 

 

I'll also pick judo back up while I'm at it.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Nungali]

Sure, I could have put up a vid of a karate guy beating a boxer , but that one, I thought, was a good demo of the issue I was talking about re punching with some forms of karate teaching .... teaching it as  'self -defense'    ( when many street fights,  in my culture, seem to rely on boxing, and flailing and grappling ....  if anything ) .

 

I know a guy who can cream me with his fists, he is actually a bare knuckle champ from a pretty rough place in the outback. But another  third friend of ours took some very brief and basic self defense off me.  He flummoxed the other by 'sort of accidentally' jabbing a finger in his eye as his hand flailed close enough to do it, the other  ( who was little drunk and insisting on a  'friendly box' and actually just starting one up )  , being a boxer and being used to gloves threatening him just wasn't expecting it  .   Later he warmed other people " Dont pick on him, he's crazy ! He poked me in the eye !  "  

 

And that is without even attacking him 'downstairs'  not one of those  Karate /  TKD  guys  sent for a knee attack or a foot sweep or a lock up / take down, a flying technique. 

 

Once, at work there was a friendly between a chinese martial arts choreographer and a well known boxer / actor on down time. Many times the boxer just   kept back punched at the attacking  hand, foot or ... he got 'nailed' a few times *   , and a few times it went the other way. ,,, a draw I would say.     But in a fight , anything can happen !  Anyone can win .... ya never know . 

 

 

* The way they worked the safety issue was to pull the blow just before contact, They were good sportsman and each acknowledged a hit, when it happened , with no ref ,,,  some, I didnt even notice myself,  to fast !   

[Nungali]

Filipino martial arts? If I go back to the boxing gym and spring back into shape I'll be moving like Mayweather in months to come. I don't see what filipino martial arts would give me in terms of footwork that boxing hasn't already. I think I'll check out the nearest shotokan school instead. 

 

 

I'll also pick judo back up while I'm at it.

 

 

Well okay then .....     and thanks for your input