So how does reincarnation work in Taoist theory?

[Wu Ming Jen]

My point is less about lifestyle (such as hermit vs. being in society) so much as the difference between the zhenren 真人 or "true man" "perfected man", the sage, the immortal, etc. and the ordinary man. Now, at the Absolute level it may be said that they are the same, but at the relative level there is certainly a difference. For example, the Daodejing 15 says of the former:

 

The masters of this ancient path are mysterious and profound

Their inner states baffle all inquiry

Their depths go beyond all knowing

 

Zhuangzi says of them:

 

There must first be a True Man before there can be true knowledge. What do I mean by a True Man? The True Man of ancient times did not rebel against want, did not grow proud in plenty, and did not plan his affairs. A man like this could commit an error and not regret it, could meet with success and not make a show. A man like this could climb the high places and not be frightened, could enter the water and not get wet, could enter the fire and not get burned. His knowledge was able to climb all the way up to the Way like this.

 

Other early Daoist material states that their minds are so perfectly calm and unmoving that if a mountain were to crumble in front of them they wouldn't lose their composure in the least. The Huainanzi states of these perfected men:

 

Life and death make no difference to him; that is why he is called supremely spiritual (shen, divine).

 

The one who is called the True Man (chen-jen) is naturally one with Tao; he has as if not having; he is full as if empty; he dwells in unity without knowing duality, governs his inner person and ignores the external. He clearly knows Grand Simplicity (t'ai-su); and without ado, he returns to the uncarved block(p'u); he incorporates the Root, embraces the divine, and frolics between heaven and earth. Radiant, he roams beyond the dust and impurities, and goes hither and yon in aimless wandering. Immense and vast! 

 

Without learning, he knows; without looking, he sees; without acting, he achieves; without any effort, he discerns. He responds impulsively, he moves when solicited; without willing, he goes as a light shines or like a [lightning] flash. Having the Tao for himself, he waits and conforms. Embracing the Root of Great Purity (T'ai-ch'ing), there is nothing which delights or disturbs him. Vast and grand, he is empty; pure and quiet, he is without thought or worry. Burning marshes would not warm him; the freezing Yellow or Han rivers would not cool him; a formidable thunderclap striking a mountain would not frighten him; a formidable wind obscuring the sun would not trouble him.

 

In short, there is a qualitative difference between the sage and the ordinary man, indeed an ontological difference. The question is, does this true or perfected man have the exact same end as the ordinary man? It seems unlikely. If that were the case, why should one aim to become a zhenren when all one has to do is wait a very short time before death comes and one can also unite with the Dao and become immortal?

 

Hence why I personally believe my first post in this thread to be the best way of looking at the issue.

I like what you posted. The difference is now vs some preconceived notion of afterlife.

 

we can benefit all humanity and be a role model to other humans. Most role models today have excessive wealth and have unnatural behaviors but this does not help humans but harms them creating desires of things unnecessary for survival.

[Oneironaut]

Early Daoism is more at immortality than reincarnation.  But yes, today's Religious Daoists are mostly connected with Buddhism therefore it would include reincarnation.

 

It's primarily the vajrayana schools (Tibetan Buddhism) that concern themselves with reincarnation. The theravada and mahayana (zen) schools mostly reject the Brahmanic and Hindu concept of reincarnation. Most Taoists that also practice Buddhism I assume would fall under the mahayana (chan/zen) schools. They believe in rebirth but it's not the same as reincarnation. Rebirth means that the person is consistently changing into a new person every moment.  

[Aithrobates]

The "two souls" schema, (just like hun/po) both of them existing before and after the body, so "reincarnating", is fairly common. I covers most of the animist ground, Eurasia and the Americas. It's not and Hindu or Buddhist thing, not specifically. More like a "background" stuff.

 

The real question is more about the differences in view of and emphasis on the different traditions have on "reincarnation".

[Geof Nanto]

Here is an overview from Louis Komjathy’s The Daoist Tradition that I found helpful for clarifying Daoist views of the self, death, and reincarnation....... 

 

Composite personhood

 

Paralleling a traditional Chinese worldview, the foundational Daoist view of self is that of composite personhood. It appears that there were two principal classical Daoist maps of personhood. The first was the fairly standard Chinese view of a composite self consisting of two primary spiritual elements. The second was also a composite view, but here the person was seen as a temporary accumulation of qi, of subtle breath as animating power. These are not mutually exclusive, and they may have been simply different ways of expressing the same fundamental Daoist anthropology. The key connective strand is that, from a traditional Chinese and foundational Daoist perspective, one's self is composite and ephemeral. Human beings contain both "biological" and "spiritual" elements. However—and this is centrally important for understanding Daoism—every aspect of self is transitory and impermanent. We may think of this in terms of atoms, although that concept is foreign to Daoism. Just as atoms break apart and reform into new configurations, so too every dimension of self is reabsorbed and recycled in the energy system of the cosmos. This is an impersonal view of the cosmos and selfhood, and it stands in contrast to classical Hellenistic and Hindu views of an eternal soul, whether going through one lifetime or multiple ones (reincarnation). That is, from a classical and foundational Daoist perspective, one is not eternal, and if there is post-mortem existence, it is temporary. The ultimate fate of ordinary human beings is to disappear into the cosmos.

 

The first Daoist expression of a composite view of personhood is the so-called "two-soul model." We find this view expressed in some classical Daoist sources such as Chapter 10 of the Daodejing, "Carrying the ethereal and corporeal souls, embracing the One, can you be without separation?"' The Zhuangzi expresses a similar view.

 

SELF AS ETHEREAL AND CORPOREAL SOULS

Life between the heavens and earth resembles the passing of a white colt glimpsed through a crack in the wall—whoosh, and then it's gone. Overflowing, starting forth, there is nothing that does not come out; gliding away, slipping into silence, there is nothing that does not go back in. Having been transformed (hua), things find themselves alive; another transformation and they are dead. Living things grieve over it, and humanity mourns. But it is like the untying of a Heaven-lent bow-bag, the unloading of a Heaven-lent satchel—a yielding, a mild mutation, and the hun and po are on their way, the body following after, on at last to the Great Return. (Zhuangzi, Chapter 22; adapted from Watson 1968: 240)

 

From this perspective, the person consists of one hun and one po…. The former is conventionally translated as "cloud" or "ethereal soul," while the latter is conventionally rendered as "white" or "corporeal soul." The use of "soul" is misleading, as it implies something substantial and eternal….. For clarity's sake, one may think of the hunas the yang-ghost and the po as the yin-ghost: the yang-ghost is associated with subtle and celestial aspects of self, while the yin-ghost is associated with the flesh and bones. According to the standard account, after death, the various composite aspects of self separate. The hun ascends into the heavens to become an ancestor, while the po descends into the earth, eventually dissipating as the body decomposes….. In any case, it is important to note that the hun and po are ephemeral, and eventually dissipate into the cosmos.

 

The second Daoist expression of a composite view of personhood centers on qi: "Human life is a coming-together of qi. If it comes together, there is life; if it scatters, there is death" (Zhuangzi, Chapter 22; see also ibid., Chapter 4; Daode jing, Chapter 42). According to this perspective, one's being is a relatively random occurrence, wherein qi happens to come together in a specific way at a specific time. This apparent randomness is, of course, offset by various factors, which Daoists recognize: one is born in a specific place at a specific time within a specific family. There are thus astronomical, astrological, and constitutional aspects of personhood that manifest as one's unique being.

 

SELF AS ACCUMULATION OF Qi

"Your master happened to come because it was his time, and he happened to leave because things follow along. If you are content with the time arid willing to follow along, then grief and joy have no way to enter in. In the old days, this was called being freed from the bonds of Di (Thearch). Though the grease burns out of the torch, the fire passes on, and no one knows where it ends." (Zhuangzi, Chapter 3)

 

"I received life because the time had come; I will lose it because the order of things passes on. Be content with this time and dwell in this order and then neither sorrow nor joy can touch you. In ancient times this was called 'freeing the bound.' There are those who cannot free themselves because they are bound by things. But nothing can ever win against the heavens—that's the way it's always been." (ibid., Chapter 6)

 

These passages point towards the Dao as an impersonal, cosmological process, and challenge the nearly ubiquitous anthropocentrism of the world's cultures. At times, 1hese Daoist views of personhood seem to border on being ecological, in which each and every being is part of a larger system. Within that system, the death and decomposition of some beings is necessary for the sustenance and flourishing of others. Here compost seems to be both a viable metaphor and lived experience of human existence.

 

COMPOSITION, DECOMPOSITION, RECOMPOSITION

The seeds of things have mysterious workings (ji). In the water they become Break Vine; on the edges of the water they become Frog's Robe. If they sprout on slopes, they become Hill Slippers. If Hill Slippers get rich soil, they turn into Crow's Feet. The roots of Crow's Feet turn into maggots and their leaves turn into butterflies. Before long the butterflies are transformed and turn into insects that live under the stove; they look like snakes and their name is Qutuo. After a thousand days, the Qutuo insects become birds called Dried Leftover Bones. The saliva of the Dried Leftover Bones becomes Simi bugs, and the Simi bugs become Vinegar Eaters. Yiluo bugs are born from the Vinegar Eaters, and Huangshuang bugs from Jiuyou bugs. Jiuyou bugs are born from Mourui bugs and Mourui bugs are born from Rot Grubs and Rot Grubs are born from Sheep's Groom. Sheep's Groom couples with bamboo that has not sprouted for a long while and produces Green Peace plants. Green Peace plants produce leopards and leopards produce horses and horses produce humans. Humans in time return again to the mysterious workings. So all beings come out of the mysterious workings and go back into it again. (Zhuangzi, Chapter 18; adapted from Watson 1968: 195-6)

 

While this passage seems to derive from both the close observation of natural cycles and creative imaginings about the relation between sentient beings and the "mysterious workings," the text expresses a biocentric and organicist understanding of the Dao as transformative process. Through reciprocal and mutually influencing patterns of interaction, some beings are born from and nourished by others. This is a complex, interdependent set of relationships-, it is beyond the comprehension of most human beings. Thus, one must speak of it as both observable and mysterious. All beings participate in and express the Dao's transformative process, emerging from and then eventually returning to its interconnected totality. This is as true for human beings as for fern leafs and maggots.

 

Viewing the classical and foundational Daoist composite view of self, various interpretations are possible. At times, this view seems to be more materialistic and naturalistic, more biological and organic. One gets the impression of participating in a vast compost system. At other times, there seems to be a spiritist dimension, that is, it seems that human beings contain spiritual elements that, at least for some period of time, transcend physical death. It is important to note, however, that the Daoist composite view of self has a psychosomatic ("mind-body") dimension'. one's postmortem fate, at least the fate of the po, is dependent upon the proper treatment of the body. This is expressed in the traditional Chinese and Daoist practice of full-body interment as the primary burial and funeral practice.

 

Ascetic and alchemical views

In order to understand various later Daoist practices, goals, and ideals, it is essential to be familiar with the foundational Daoist view of personhood as composite self. The ordinary human being, like all organic entities, is destined to decompose and be reabsorbed into the cosmos. The classical Daoist response to such an existential given was acceptance and cosmic integration. Within the context of the inner cultivation lineages, Daoist adepts practiced apophatic meditation with the goal of mystical union with the Dao. This transpersonal experience revealed the transitory and illusory nature of separate existence. To be a separate individual, especially one rooted in egoistic desires, was to be separated from the Dao, at least when viewed from an experiential and psychological perspective. Once one attained disappearance of self and abided in the Dao, one came to understand that death and life are part of the same transformative process. In some sense, higher-level Daoist practitioners die while still alive, and so their way of perceiving death becomes transformed. Nonetheless, death was still the end of personhood and terrestrial being. One dies, and death is nothingness on a personal level.

 

However, as time went on, some Daoists proposed a different response and solution to the givenness of a composite self and its dissipation through death. From this perspective, which I refer to as the "alchemical view,” one can unite the disparate aspects of the self into a single whole.

That imagined goal is actualized and accomplished; it is not given. Through complex alchemical processes, whether external or i internal, one could create a transcendent spirit, one could ensure personal post-mortem existence. Considered from a more encompassing Daoist perspective, one can simply accept one's bio-spiritual fate to disappear into the cosmos; within such a Daoist religious path, one cultivates a sense of cosmological and mystical integration. However, if one wants personal post-mortem existence, there is only one choice: to engage in alchemical practice. Even then, perhaps disturbingly, there is no guarantee of success.

 

Buddhist-influenced perspectives

The previously painted picture becomes more complex with the introduction of Buddhism as one of the so-called Three Teachings (sanjiao). Introduced into China by Central Asian merchants and missionary-monks during the first and second centuries CE, Buddhism was initially rejected as a "foreign,”' and therefore inferior, religion. However, after about two hundred years, Chinese people began converting to Buddhism in larger numbers. Buddhist views and practices became more commonplace, and Daoists began adopting various elements of Buddhism. This led to pivotal cross-pollinations: Chan (Zen) Buddhism developed under the influence of classical Daoist texts, while Daoists began to systematize their tradition along Buddhist lines, including the creation of Daoist monasticism.

 

In terms of the present discussion, Buddhism introduced an entirely new worldview from  India into Chinese culture. This worldview centered on karma, samsara, and nirvana…… According to the Four Noble Truths, the nature of existence is suffering (dukkha), and suffering is caused by desire. In order to overcome suffering, and eventually attain nirvana, one must extinguish desires. That is, ordinary human existence is a source of suffering, especially in the form of sickness, old age, and death. This suffering continues through each subsequent lifetime based on one's accumulated karma. Second, Buddhism emphasizes that an abiding self or eternal soul (atman) is illusory. In fact, what we mistakenly identify as "self" is composed of the Five Aggregates (Skt.: skandha), which are also impermanent. The Five Aggregates include form/ matter, feeling/sensation, perception, conception, and consciousness. Here an inevitable question emerges: if there is no self, then what reincarnates? The standard Buddhist response is that there is a transference of consciousness and karma from one existence to another, like the passing of a flame from one candle to another. In this way, Buddhism appears to replace a strict interpretation of self as radically impermanent with a quasi-docetic view, and in practice emphasizes mind or consciousness over the body. This stands in contrast to traditional Chinese psychosomatic views.

 

Buddhism exerted a profound influence on Chinese culture, and Daoists increasingly accepted the Buddhist idea of reincarnation. While Daoists tended to reject claims concerning the body and world as samsaric, as sources of suffering as such, there were parallel classical Daoist ideas about the potentially disorienting effects of desire.

 

Lingbao was the first Daoist sub-tradition to incorporate the Buddhist view of reincarnation (lunhui), also rendered as transmigration. Although reincarnation did not replace the earlier composite and alchemical views, it did become one of the dominant Daoist views of self, and today the majority of mainland Chinese Daoists tend to believe in reincarnation. With the addition of reincarnation, the rationale for internal alchemy became slightly reconceptualized. Daoists now tend to frame this rationale in terms of "realizing innate nature" (dexing) or "awakening original spirit" (wu yuanshen). The ultimate goal of internal alchemy also shifts from the formation of a transcendent spirit to the ability to consciously direct one's subsequent existences. Unfortunately, little research has been conducted on the place of reincarnation in specific systems of internal alchemy.

 

Death, dying and the afterlife

Just as there are three primary Daoist views of self, namely, composite, alchemical, and Buddhistic (quasi-docetic), so too there are three corresponding Daoist views of death and the afterlife: (1) Death as dissipation into the cosmos, (2) Death as immortality, and (3) Death as reincarnation. There are ways in which these are mutually exclusive, and ways in which they are compatible. As the third view is quite straightforward (see above), here I will focus on the first two, which are indigenously Chinese.

 

The classical location for the first view, death as dissipation, is in the texts of classical Daoism, specifically the Zhuangzi. Here two representative passages from Chapter 6, "The Great Ancestral Teacher," will suffice. This is probably the key chapter for understanding classical Daoist perspectives on death and dying.

 

ADEPT YU AND ADEPT LAI EMBRACE THE DYING PROCESS

All at once Adept Yu fell ill. Adept Si went to ask how he was. "Amazing!:' said Adept Yu. "The transformative process is making me crooked like this! My back sticks up like a hunchback and my vital organs are on top of me. My chin is hidden in my navel, my shoulders are up above my head, and my ponytail points at the sky. It must be some dlislocetion of the qi of yin and yang!"

"Do you resent it?" asked Adept Si.

"Why no, what would I resent? If the process continues, perhaps in time it will transform my left arm into a rooster. In that case I'll keep watch on the night. Or perhaps in time it will transform my right arm into a crossbow pellet and I'll shoot down an owl for roasting. Or perhaps in time it will transform my buttocks into cartwheels. Then, with spirit for a horse, I'll climb up, and go for a ride. What need will I ever have for a carriage again?

I received life because the time had come; I will lose it because the order of things passes on. Be content with this time and dwell in this order and then neither sorrow nor joy can touch you. In ancient times this was called 'freeing the bound’. There are those who cannot free themselves because they are bound by things. But nothing can ever win against the heavens—that's the way it's always been. What would I have to resent?" (Zhuangzi, Chapter 6; adapted from Watson 1968: 84)

 

Suddenly Adept Lai grew ill. Gasping and wheezing, he lay at the point of death. His wife and children gathered round in a circle and began to cry. Adept Li, who had come to ask how he was, said, "Shoo! Get back! Don't disturb the process of change!"

Then he leaned against the doorway and talked to Adept Lai. "How marvellous the transformative process is! What is it going to make of you next? Where is it going to send you? Will it make you into a rat's liver? Will it make you into a bug's arm?"

Adept Lai said, "A child, obeying his father and mother, goes wherever he is told, east or west, south or north. And yin and yang—how much more are they to a person than father or mother! Now that they have brought me to the verge of death, if I should refuse to obey them, how perverse I would be! What fault is it of theirs? The Great Clod burdens me with form, labors me with life, eases me in old age, and rests me in death. So if I think well of my life, for the same reason I must think well of my death. When a skilled smith is casting metal, if the metal should leap up and say, 'I insist upon being made into a Moye!' he would surely regard it as very inauspicious metal indeed. Now, having had the audacity to take on human form once, if I should say, 'I don't want to be anything but a human! Nothing but a human!', the transformative process would surely regard me as a most inauspicious sort of person. So now I think of the heavens and earth as a great furnace, and the transformative process as a skilled smith. Where could it send me that would not be all right? I will go off to sleep peacefully, and then with a start I will wake up:' (ibid; adapted from Watson 1968: 85; see also Zhuangzi, Chapters 2, 3, 7, 13, 15, 17, 18, 22, 23, and 33)

 

This passage reflects the classical view of the Dao as transformative process (zaohua), which is frequently mistranslated as "creation" or "Creator." Just as one participates in this process, the energetic oscillation of yin and yang, while alive, so too in death. Death is simply another moment in the endless unfolding of the Dao. Taken as a whole, the various passages seem to indicate that death is the dissolution of self, the separation of the various elements of personhood . There is no personal post-mortem existence, no personal survival after death. One becomes reabsorbed and recycled in the cosmos, and different elements, possibly even aspects of consciousness, become redistributed to and as new beings.

 

The second major Daoist view of death, death as immortality, is a response to the first view, which was the standard, received account. The second view developed in the context of Daoist alchemy, both external and internal. This Daoist perspective frequently leads to perplexity among students of Daoism, as many see it as "inconsistent" or "contradictory" with respect to the first. In fact, it is a response, or an alternative, to the foundational Daoist view of death as dissipation into the cosmos. If one is content to decompose, then one simply accepts death as another moment in the transformative process of the Dao. However, there is no subjective experience, no awareness, of that process after physical death, and one loses the capacity of conscious participation. If one desires personal post-mortem existence, "immortality:' one must engage in alchemical practice and transformation. This cannot be emphasized enough. The Daoist view of death as immortality is not a given; it must be actualized and accomplished through training. One must activate the Daoist subtle body; one must create a transcendent spirit. This is the path to immortality and transcendence.

 

Before the influence and adaptation of a Buddhist-inspired reincarnation model, there was no possibility of a prolonged afterlife, especially as a unified being, without alchemical practice—and even then, there was no guarantee of success, of the completion of alchemical transformation.

 

Although these views are often seen as mutually exclusive, a passage from the sixth-century Xisheng jing(Scripture on the Western Ascension; DZ 666; DZ 726) is instructive. The text presents itself as a record of an esoteric transmission given by Laozi to Yin Xi as a supplement to the Daodejing. Throughout the text, Laozi instructs Yin Xi on various dimensions of Daoist training, including practices that might be labeled "proto-neidan." The text in turn oscillates between the Daoist soteriological goals of "return" and "transformation."

 

NON-DUALISTIC MYSTICAL BEING

Laozi said, "I will now revert my spirit and return to Namelessness [Dao]. I will abandon separate personhood and end my existence; in this way I will live continuously. Now I will leave this world and return to the unified Source"

Suddenly he disappeared. At that moment, the building was illuminated by a five-colored radiance, dark and brilliant.

Yin Xi went into the courtyard, prostrated himself and said, "Please, spirit being, appear one more time. Let me receive one more essential principle so that I may guard the Source (shouyuan).'

Yin Xi then looked up and saw Laozi's body suspended in mid-air several meters above the ground. He looked like a statue (jinren) [possibly "golden being"]. The apparition appeared and disappeared, vague and indistinct. His countenance had no constancy. Laozi then spoke, "I will give you one more admonition. Make sure to follow it: Get rid of all impurities and stop your thoughts; still the heart-mind and guard the One. When all impurities are gone, the myriad affairs are done. These are the essentials of my way (dao)."

Finishing this, the apparition vanished. (Xisheng jing, DZ 666, 6.15a-17b)

 

While there are a variety of ways to read this passage contextually, one especially relevant to the present discussion is that it is possible to merge with the Dao and attain the ability to manifest as a differentiated being. That is, one may reside in a post-mortem state wherein one is simultaneously everything (Oneness) and an individual thing (one). Just as all beings participate in and express the Dao, the Dao manifests in every individual being. Here Laozi is simultaneously Dao, personal god, as well as historical figure and human being. This is the Daoist adept's own potentiality as well.

[Wu Ming Jen]

The many souls of the body makes it unlikely to reincarnate a personality. We return to Tao without image there is no need to speculate, the unknown.   What causes this need to know. It is because mind has separated seeing beginnings and ends.

 

many people fear death but when death is at their door step it can not happen soon enough.

 

We never left any thing when we are born. We are looking in the wrong direction with reincarnation. We can go through the door of death and go along with things or we can turn around and go through the door of life making speculation unnecessary.

 

I have never had a teacher of immortality ever even say the word reincarnation as apart of Taoist teaching. I do not know why it is considered Taoist teachings.

 

Its all good and does not matter to me but in my personal experience this is a Buddhist teaching from the roots of Hindu that think there are two worlds. 

[Oneironaut]

this is a Buddhist teaching from the roots of Hindu that think there are two worlds. 

 

There is also arguments stating that the Buddha was NOT a hindu as there was nothing remotely close to hinduism established at the point in time he was alive.

 

Also, as mentioned before, Shakyamuni was never a proponent of reincarnation. Reincarnation in Buddhism is accepted almost exclusively by Tibetan Buddhists. You see hindu deities being spoken of in Tibetan Buddhism as well as the shingon sects in Japan. 

Edited March 12, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Marblehead]

Rebirth means that the person is consistently changing into a new person every moment.  

I keep changing into an older person.

[Wu Ming Jen]

2500–1500 B.C.E. —The Indus River Valley civilization develops and flourishes. Evidence of early Hindu practice is archaeologically dated to this vanished culture. 

1600–1400 B.C.E. —The Aryan warrior culture conquers the Indus River Valley, bringing with it the Sanskrit language and major influences in the development of Hinduism.

1500–1200 B.C.E. —The Vedic Age in which the Rig Veda is written, reflecting the influence of joining the Aryan and Indus River Valley cultures.

1000–300 B.C.E. —The Brahmanas and Upanishads are written and added to the original Vedas.

600–500 B.C.E. —The Age of Protest as Buddhism and Jainism break away from the main flow of Hinduism.

400 B.C.E.–800 C.E. —The Hindu response to Buddhism and Jainism results in further changes to the main teachings of Hinduism.

326 B.C.E. —Alexander the Great brings his army and the influence of Greek civilization into the northernmost regions of India. The Indian Mauryan Empire is created to counter this Greek invasion of culture and ideas.

250 B.C.E. —Ashoka becomes Emperor of the Mauryan Dynasty.

400–500 C.E. — Hinduism returns as the dominant religion of India. Temples and monuments are built to honor Hindu ideas, gods and beliefs. This is the era of the Hindu Renaissance.

800–1000 C.E. — Bhakti movements begin to develop in India.

900 C.E. — Shankara teaches the reality of One Brahman or One God, introducing significant monotheistic beliefs into Hinduism.

[Oneironaut]

Dharma Data: Hinduism  

  

 

One often hears it said that the Buddha was born, lived and died as a Hindu or that he tried to reform Hinduism or that Buddhism is just a sect of Hinduism. Before commenting on these claims some clarification is necessary. What today is called Hinduism is the result of centuries of evolution by numerous divergent spiritual movements within India. So varied and different are the various expressions of Hinduism that virtually the only factor they have in common is that they all originated in India, hence the name Hinduism which means 'the belief of Indians'. Being so dynamic and fluid it is true to say that what today is called Hinduism simply did not exist at the time of the Buddha. The main religion at that time was Brahmanism, the worship of the gods mentioned in the Vedas through sacrifices and rituals. The Buddha was highly critical of Brahmanism. While he accepted the existence of the Vedic gods he denied their superiority over man. He disputed the authority of the Vedic scriptures, he severely criticised the brahmin priests and the caste system in general. The brahmin priests for their part condemned the Buddha as the worst type of heretic. Very clearly the Buddha did not perceive himself, nor was he perceived by others as being a part of the prevailing religion. 

However, as both religions existed side by side for many centuries and as both are very tolerant, cross-pollination inevitably took place. Many aspects of Buddhism were absorbed into Brahmanism which along with the incorporation of other cults and local beliefs, helped it to gradually evolve into Hinduism. By the 7th or 8th century AD Hindus come to consider the Buddha an emanation of their god Vishnu. At around the same time some Buddhists began to adopt Hindu rituals, magic and gods which led to the development of Tantric Buddhism. Although some strands of Tantra always remained firmly within Buddhism others became increasingly 'Hinduized'. For example, H.V. Guenther described the teachings of the Tantric adept Naropa as being "virtually indistinguishable from Brahmanism".

 

This was taken from http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/fdd48.htm

 

Edited March 13, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Wu Ming Jen]

I don't think anyone considers buddha a hindu but the roots of this discussion reincarnation are found in hindu and buddhist teachings. So  how does reincarnation work in Taoist theory we end up talking about buddhism or the hindu religion.

 

Reincarnation is a topic banned from chinese tv.

[Rara]

I'm not even sure if I'm asking the right question. On one end I get the response that Taoists do not believe in reincarnation and on the other end I'm told that at death all the different shen split off from the body of a person, go about their own way and merge together elsewhere with different energies to form an entirely different person. Can someone clear this up for me?

The former. Why waste energy with assumptions?

[Rara]

Reincarnation is a topic banned from chinese tv.

I had no idea of this....that's quite amusing!

[Rara]

But there are many different kinds of Taoists. I'm sure they all believe different things and this further confuses everything.

 

 

The average everyday person think qigong is for crazies and old people with nothing better to do. The concept of chi/ki is not scientifically accepted and falls outside the realm of logic. The scientific community HEAVILY scrutinzes and rejects anything having to do with chi and throws it under the label of metaphysical baggage. Even yin yang theory is WRONG according to modern scientific thought. No logic here.

 

 

Then whats the point of life itself? Or cultivation practices such as neidan?

 

 

It's not a waste of time at all. In my experiences it works the other way around. Leaving it all in the hands of some invisible man in the clouds is a more passive way of religion asserting their control.

Hi Oneironaut,

 

Correct, many different Taoist beliefs out there and I had the same debates a few years ago. Eventually I had to submit to myself and recognise that my curiosity and dabbling in all this was really out of my depth and quite frankly, is out of anyones.

 

I went back to Tao Te Ching and realised I saw little correlation between so-called Taoist beliefs/practices and this initial foundation for the philosophy.

 

That was my choice, and I guess that makes me the Taoist I "want to be"...or simply, the person "I am".

 

One thing that is universal is that eventually, everything is subjective. The Taoist that believes in reincarnation is attracted to the idea. The Christian that believes in God is hopeful of said God and the afterlife. The atheist cannot fathom a world governed by a higher being, and does not care for it.

 

So the answer is in yourself...regardless of what text says what. And if I'm to inflict my bias on you, I'd say, go away and be reincarnated then come back and tell us. Then see who believes you =P

 

I wouldn't say the yin and yang is a theory at all, nor dismissed by science. It is an observation of polarity, the scale from hot to cold, from day to night, from peace to conflict etc. So simple yet so confused by those that want a debate. No this is just nature, watched by scientists today. Taoists in their own right.

 

As for Neidan arts etc, I don't know. The more I go to "practice" meditation or kung fu forms etc, the more forced it seems. I get more benefit these days taking my fiancee's mum's dog for a walk.

 

And I think Wu Ming Jen was trying to say that the idea of reincarnation is still an equivalent of leaving control with the man in the sky. Again, it's just another spiritual belief which has had no proving ground whatsoever.

 

For me, the Taoist can watch the sun-rise and set...there's little more a human is capable of. Within this there is potential...check out Lao Tzu's "Limitless" comments. Then there's Chuang Tzu's butterfly dream.

 

So yes, things can get a little imaginitive, but don't confuse imagination with what we can actually prove in our own waking reality.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Rara

[silent thunder]

always seemed to me

that bodies manifest in

fields of energy

[Oneironaut]

Reincarnation is a topic banned from chinese tv.

 

I thought chi gung was also banned in China and people had to practice in secrecy unless they migrated to Singapore or Taiwan. For some reason the Chinese government isn't having any of it. 

Edited March 13, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Wu Ming Jen]

Falun Gong or Falun Dafa deemed to undermine communist party in early 2000,s began a brutal crackdown on the practice making the practice illegal. 

[HoldorFold]

I'm not even sure if I'm asking the right question. On one end I get the response that Taoists do not believe in reincarnation and on the other end I'm told that at death all the different shen split off from the body of a person, go about their own way and merge together elsewhere with different energies to form an entirely different person. Can someone clear this up for me?

 

I have to read the replies to this thread properly since it seems there's lots of different perspectives, but I've been reading some material about the Tibetan Book of the Dead and there seems to be a belief in the following process. I'm not sure how much I subscribe to it, but this is what I have read (simplified):

 

1. The soul,at death, ascends various planes until it reaches the "chikhai bardo" where pure spirit itself resides (the realm of "Clear Light"
2. The soul usually will then seek to escape the realisation of divine emptiness and flee this realm and blacks out
3. The soul awakens in the next lower realm, the "chonyid bardo" which is characterised by various Gods/Goddesses/Dakinis etc. and dazzling lights. The soul tends to flee this realm as well since it's so overwhelming and blacks out again.
4. The soul awakens in the "sidpa bardo" where it is shown various images. The souls reaction to these images determines the future karma of it's next incarnation. Eventually has vision of people making love. The soul gets attracted to one of these visions and feels sexual desire for either the mother or father. If it desires the mother then it dislikes the father and becomes a boy. If it desires the father then it dislikes the mother and becomes a girl. In either case, it steps in-between them to intervene and gets sucked into physicality and is incarnated as their offspring.

[Andrei]

2500–1500 B.C.E. —The Indus River Valley civilization develops and flourishes. Evidence of early Hindu practice is archaeologically dated to this vanished culture. 1600–1400 B.C.E. —The Aryan warrior culture conquers the Indus River Valley, bringing with it the Sanskrit language and major influences in the development of Hinduism.1500–1200 B.C.E. —The Vedic Age in which the Rig Veda is written, reflecting the influence of joining the Aryan and Indus River Valley cultures.1000–300 B.C.E. —The Brahmanas and Upanishads are written and added to the original Vedas.600–500 B.C.E. —The Age of Protest as Buddhism and Jainism break away from the main flow of Hinduism.400 B.C.E.–800 C.E. —The Hindu response to Buddhism and Jainism results in further changes to the main teachings of Hinduism.326 B.C.E. —Alexander the Great brings his army and the influence of Greek civilization into the northernmost regions of India. The Indian Mauryan Empire is created to counter this Greek invasion of culture and ideas.250 B.C.E. —Ashoka becomes Emperor of the Mauryan Dynasty.400–500 C.E. — Hinduism returns as the dominant religion of India. Temples and monuments are built to honor Hindu ideas, gods and beliefs. This is the era of the Hindu Renaissance.800–1000 C.E. — Bhakti movements begin to develop in India.900 C.E. — Shankara teaches the reality of One Brahman or One God, introducing significant monotheistic beliefs into Hinduism.

 

9000-7000 BCE the first civilisation after ice age around Black Sea, invented wheel, metalurgy, gold mining, worshipped the Female Godess, the oldest city ever discovered Gobekly Tepe, used Yin-Yang symbol, the spiral, the swastika, nothing much else known except the speculation that is the ancestor of all the religious practices appeared at a later date.

[HoldorFold]

One of the things that I would like to know is whether the transmigration of the soul (the idea of it) is born out of the experience of different spirits that compose the body or whether it is from the experience of the actual transmigration of a "soul" which exists beyond the particularities of the spirits that compose the different layers of body.

 

From my understanding, the soul can be affected by life experiences while incarnated on earth. So the 'spirits of the body' can effect the re-incarnation process by the effect they had on the soul. 

 

I had a disjointed thought that I found confusing and somewhat disturbing awhile ago. I was thinking that since we are all one consciousness, yet we experience our lives as separate from birth until death, that this must therefore mean that at some point you will separately live through the entire lifetime of everyone that has ever and will ever exist from the beginning until the end of time. For example, at the moment, I am the one consciousness having the experience of being locked in the body of HoldOrFold in 2016. Consciousness must do this for everyone that will ever exist, and since I am consciousness I must eventually experience being locked in the body of everyone that will ever exist, separately, one at a time for their entire lifetime.

 

I couldn't quite wrap my head around that one and find it a bit spooky.

[thelerner]

Question.. country by country in the East, how wide spread is the belief in reincarnation?  In India is it the norm?  How about China (always the elephant in the room) and Japan.. Cambodia..??  Extra credit if you match the belief to its specific religion.

[Oneironaut]

Question.. country by country in the East, how wide spread is the belief in reincarnation?  In India is it the norm?  How about China (always the elephant in the room) and Japan.. Cambodia..??  Extra credit if you match the belief to its specific religion.

 

Probably more widespread in India because of Hinduism. 

[Andrei]

Question.. country by country in the East, how wide spread is the belief in reincarnation?  In India is it the norm?  How about China (always the elephant in the room) and Japan.. Cambodia..??  Extra credit if you match the belief to its specific religion.

 

Nowadays is spread globally, even in Brasil. They even made a movie about that Nosso Lar/ Astral City based on the best selling book by medium Chico Xavier.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEanMc3Beqg

Edited March 15, 2016 by Andrei

[LaoZiDao]

As far as I am aware, there is no difference in 'how it works' by any Traditional schools with True understanding.

What changes is the approach to escape it (Samsara), namely true and false ways.

Buddhist approach it by develop Yinshen and be stuck in the netherworld as a Guixian-ghost/dead-spirit for infinite time, hence escaping Samsara (reincarnation). According to the Daoist this is the greatest mistake.

To my knowledge ancient original Buddhism was the similar as Daoism, cultivate Yangshen (rainbow body etc), ascend to heaven and escape Samsara in that way. Become the real Xian-immortal-god who has real unlimited potential, this is the true work of traditional schools that have true methods.

Edited March 17, 2016 by LaoZiDao

[thelerner]

.. If such were the case, why bother with anything (certainly not Daoist discipline, praxis, or asceticism) since we are all assured of the same end? Might as well embrace the YOLO lifestyle and do whatever you want since uniting with the Dao after death is guaranteed.

Those who embrace the darker narcissistic side of YOLO tend to live shorter, often unhappier lives.  Life tends to echo your character around you.  

 

We're not God, but we build our lives around us.  We can choose to give it meaning and live our ideals.  And along the way I postulate, kindness, helping others, sharing.. kindergarten stuff is way more important and leads to greater satisfaction then shiny toys and ego puffery.  

 

So even if the truth is less then merging with dao, if our existence is a light switch turning off and our bodies merely worm food, even then a life well lived has meaning.  Imo, we can't ever really be sure, the universe may be kinder and multidimensional then we know. 

[Kongming]

Those who embrace the darker narcissistic side of YOLO tend to live shorter, often unhappier lives.  Life tends to echo your character around you.  

 

We're not God, but we build our lives around us.  We can choose to give it meaning and live our ideals.  And along the way I postulate, kindness, helping others, sharing.. kindergarten stuff is way more important and leads to greater satisfaction then shiny toys and ego puffery.  

 

So even if the truth is less then merging with dao, if our existence is a light switch turning off and our bodies merely worm food, even then a life well lived has meaning.  Imo, we can't ever really be sure, the universe may be kinder and multidimensional then we know. 

 

Yes, but I am talking about from the perspective of Daoism, why is there a huge gamut practices (from self-discipline to ethics to dietetics to seated meditation to daoyin/neigong to visualization to ritual to magic to neidan, etc.) and why is there the ideal of the sage, the zhenren, or the immortal? That these elements exist and were central to Daoism tells us that Daoism believed that through cultivation and refinement man could transcend that which is "merely human" and become a celestial immortal, a perfected person, etc. that is united with the Dao.

 

Now, that this is possible and requires effort tells us that automatically becoming an immortal or uniting with the Dao wasn't a given and that there is a qualitative difference between the sage/zhenren and the normal person tells us we all don't have the same end. Furthermore, the Daoist ideal of transcending death and immortality also tells us that death isn't just a nihilistic eternal sleep or else the former wouldn't be possible.

 

Hence we can conclude that there is post-mortem survival in some form (which doesn't necessarily entail the individual person, the little "I" or ego surviving) and that it neither included everyone uniting with the Dao automatically nor some Abrahamic model of eternal heaven for some and eternal hell for others.

 

I ask, aside from the scenario described in the first post of mine in this thread, what else is there?

Edited March 16, 2016 by Kongming