Breath/Packing Training

[thaddeus]

Hi, I mentioned this on the kunlun thread but it got buried in the flurry of discussion. I noticed level 2 training has some breath holding type training. I'm curious what training people have had in breath packing, pressuring, holding etc. in their qigong/neigung/neijia practice. I'm on a fact finding mission right now. Thanks in advance for any insights,

T

[Spectrum]

Level 2? There are no levels in chi gung, there is teacher and student. That is the problem w/ presenting information over the internet, there is little room for the realistic interplay between face to face teacher/student dialog, with that disclaimer;

 

The very top and bottom of the breath cycle holds many insights for your personal observation. Breath Retention is another way to ask questions.

 

I saw in another thread someone said they couldn't get their students to spontaneously start a form out of wuji because "they didn't feel any spontaneously occuring movement". I would challenge that assumption w/ action. Posture adjustment (into wuji) and have them hold their breath for a count or untill they "feel" like taking a breath... easy way to share w/ someone how to "listen" to the bodies needs, instead of assuming.

 

So.... breath retention....

 

Consider retaining at the top of a cycle. (pressurization?)

 

Consider retaining at the bottom of a cycle (vacuum?)

 

Consider asking yourself if you started holding your breath on the way in, or the way out the next time you catch yourself holding yourself... for how can we hold our breath which slips away so delicately, or presents precious jewells.

 

There are yogic postures that support specific types of breath retentions for clensing or packing. It's wise to already be in a flow when you experiment w/ them, you know, like a warmup set like the 8 brocades or a wei dan.

 

Respectfully,

 

Spectrum

Edited November 9, 2007 by Spectrum

[thaddeus]

Level 2? There are no levels in chi gung, there is teacher and student.

Hi Spectrum, thanks for your comments..with regards to level 2 i was referring specifically to kunlun (i bought the book to look at). And was curious to hear if anyone could speak on what they do with that.

 

I didn't mean to imply i had absolutely no experience with qigong or related training. I am looking to hear what people's insights are with regards to breath holding/packing/pressuring. In my own personal adventures, I'm starting to see that if you're not being instructed in a certain amount of pressurizing, then you're *probably* not getting the real goods. This is just something I'm starting to realize. Alot of people are doing qigong superficially and only having placebo related results. And I could be totally off base on this, it's just i've been shown a door and realize I wasted alot of time practicing incorrectly for certain systems. Sorry to be vague, but part of it is laziness and part of it is avoiding writing alot about hard earned knowledge if no one really cares.

T

[Procurator]

.... I'm curious what training people have had in breath packing, pressuring, holding etc. in their qigong/neigung/neijia practice. I'm on a fact finding mission right now. Thanks in advance for any insights,

T

here is an insight - breath holding is wrong. you are welcome.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Procurator

[Guest sykkelpump]

Hi Spectrum, thanks for your comments..with regards to level 2 i was referring specifically to kunlun (i bought the book to look at). And was curious to hear if anyone could speak on what they do with that.

 

I didn't mean to imply i had absolutely no experience with qigong or related training. I am looking to hear what people's insights are with regards to breath holding/packing/pressuring. In my own personal adventures, I'm starting to see that if you're not being instructed in a certain amount of pressurizing, then you're *probably* not getting the real goods. This is just something I'm starting to realize. Alot of people are doing qigong superficially and only having placebo related results. And I could be totally off base on this, it's just i've been shown a door and realize I wasted alot of time practicing incorrectly for certain systems. Sorry to be vague, but part of it is laziness and part of it is avoiding writing alot about hard earned knowledge if no one really cares.

T

 

Here is a link about breathing http://www.meditationexpert.com/meditation..._meditation.htm

[Pero]

here is an insight - breath holding is wrong. you are welcome.

ROFL!

[thaddeus]

Here is a link about breathing http://www.meditationexpert.com/meditation..._meditation.htm

Thanks for that link, he says some interesting things..can you learn from his books?

T

 

here is an insight - breath holding is wrong. you are welcome.

and how's that working for you? how is your practice serving you? you mentioned being 'advanced in years' in your intro..feeling your age??

T

[Spectrum]

I'm starting to see that if you're not being instructed in a certain amount of pressurizing, then you're *probably* not getting the real goods

 

Your observation is correct. Therein lies the mystery. How to you exhale, regulate, and "relax" into it. Likewise how do you regulate on the inhale, creating the vacuum, and relax at the same time.

 

Vacuum & Compression: this is what a carborator does and what a turbo charger does in a race car.

 

Paradox: how to long breath, and forget yourself, at the same time. Any point of tension (to regulate the breath) draws the mind to itself in meditation, so regulation has to originate from an organ associated with the breath, less it be extra baggage on your "trip" that you drop along the way.

 

Spectrum

 

ref: Condensation Breathing

Edited November 9, 2007 by Spectrum

[Guest sykkelpump]

Your observation is correct. Therein lies the mystery. How to you exhale, regulate, and "relax" into it. Likewise how do you regulate on the inhale, creating the vacuum, and relax at the same time.

 

Vacuum & Compression: this is what a carborator does and what a turbo charger does in a race car.

 

Paradox: how to long breath, and forget yourself, at the same time. Any point of tension (to regulate the breath) draws the mind to itself in meditation, so regulation has to originate from an organ associated with the breath, less it be extra baggage on your "trip" that you drop along the way.

 

Spectrum

 

ref: Condensation Breathing

 

Very good explained...do you know what you are talking about at all?

[forestofsouls]

Hi, I mentioned this on the kunlun thread but it got buried in the flurry of discussion. I noticed level 2 training has some breath holding type training. I'm curious what training people have had in breath packing, pressuring, holding etc. in their qigong/neigung/neijia practice. I'm on a fact finding mission right now. Thanks in advance for any insights,

T

 

I tried Bodri's 9 bottle breath for a while. It was refreshing. When I first started meditating, I tried pranayama but got nothing buy headaches.

 

Personally, I have a prejudice against breath techniques due to Gurdjieff. In Meetings with Remarkable Men he talks about the body as a finely balanced, complicated system. Changing the breath can lead to many unforseen changes because it can throw that balance out of whack.

[Spectrum]

Changing the breath can lead to many unforseen changes because it can throw that balance out of whack.

 

Complete Bullshit & Common Sense at the same time.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Spectrum

[forestofsouls]

Looks like this has been done, w. Gurdjieff quoted previously.

[Procurator]

 

and how's that working for you? how is your practice serving you? you mentioned being 'advanced in years' in your intro..feeling your age??

T

i am not sure what is the meaning of your questions but...

 

"that" is working very well. my practice serving me well. i know my age. i feel 20 years younger. i look 10 years younger.

[thaddeus]

i am not sure what is the meaning of your questions but...

 

"that" is working very well. my practice serving me well. i know my age. i feel 20 years younger. i look 10 years younger.

cool..tell me about your chen style..my teacher's teacher studied with chen fake.

regards,

T

[Procurator]

cool..tell me about your chen style..my teacher's teacher studied with chen fake.

regards,

T

Well, Chen is not the main area of my practice anymore, i just do both forms once daily for dynamic conditioning and to enjoy fajing. My teacher is a personal student of Chen Fake's grandson.

[joeblast]

When I focused on longevity breathing for a time, the most profound aspects of it were at the peaks of inspiration and expiration. When I was able to relax my lungs, bronchi, trachea, sinuses, nose, mouth fully to the extent that I could detect no air turbulence through them in breath, that was when my experiences were at their greatest; I felt as if I werent even breathing at all, the transition between inspiration and expiration was a pretty gray area...the transition was almost unnoticeable - not that there was even a thought in my mind at the time

[Spectrum]

When I focused on longevity breathing for a time, the most profound aspects of it were at the peaks of inspiration and expiration. When I was able to relax my lungs, bronchi, trachea, sinuses, nose, mouth fully to the extent that I could detect no air turbulence through them in breath, that was when my experiences were at their greatest; I felt as if I werent even breathing at all, the transition between inspiration and expiration was a pretty gray area...the transition was almost unnoticeable - not that there was even a thought in my mind at the time

 

Awesome, just awesome. Good stuff. Opened up the non-conventional space and forgot about the rest of it!

[joeblast]

I plan on integrating more of that back into my practice. 2007 has been so hectic for me, I look forward to selling my place and having more time to focus on cultivation. I have enjoyed doing Kunlun, but I also want to get back to doing that embryonic breathing I learned from Yang's books and focus back on longevity. I think it will make Kunlun 10 times better for me. A matter of finding the time to do all of these exercises! Its been an hour, hour and a half for me lately, but I want to find some more time...