When losing the Qi sensation, stop and wait or continue and see what happens?

[BiGF00T]

I'll just use this forum for my real first post as it seems to be designed just for this kind of basic question. I've recently done some 小周天 (dunno its English name "small heaven cycle?"). My problem is that I sometimes lose track of the sensation and I wonder if it would be better to wait for the feeling to "appear" or just move on and see what happens in the next cycle? Between 玉枕 and 百会, the feeling is the strongest. I have the feeling that it is easiest felt, if I can keep the sensation alive until I reach the point where i don't feel it that easily.

 

But just out of curiosity, would it probably be better to rest one's awareness on the point where the Qi-feeling became unnoticable and wait for it to reappear or is it just the normal process of learning that some parts of the circle are without feeling and the more difficult parts will become noticable later?

 

Thanks,

 

BiGF00T

[dawei]

I have two questions first:

 

1. How many breaths do you do to complete one circle ?

2. Are you doing normal abdominal breathing (NAB) or reverse abdominal breathing (RAB) ?

 

If you don't quite understand the second question:  When you inhale, is your stomach expanding or contracting ?

 

Ok... three questions:

3. What role does the perineum play, if any?   Is it in sync with the breathing or not a part of your practice?

[BiGF00T]

1. One breath one circle. Sometimes it'll be more than one breath because I lose my concentration and need to regain the feeling and come back on track. Breath in on the way up on to bai hui, breath out on the way down.

2. I understand the question and I prefer NAB. I have the feeling that RAB prevents me from relaxing.

3. Perineum is not part of my practice, although I remember that there was something about flexing it while breathing in. Since I have the feeling that the muscle tonus of the pereneum is already a bit too high (probably due to stress), I am worried about using this technique as it might worsen the cramped situation even more. If I do 提肛 (do you call it flexing of the pereneum or what? Or lifting? I lack the vocabulary to explain lots of the stuff here), it would train the musculature even more that I feel to be a bit too strong already.I don't know if that would really be the case if I would do it...

Edited March 10, 2016 by BiGF00T

[dawei]

First I want to recommend a book which can be bought for very cheap on amazon:

 

Chi Kung by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming

 

I followed his method which you can also read some here , including the role of the perineum. 

 

There are various ways of doing the MCO (based on number of breaths and NAB vs RAB) and what you describe is not covered by Yang... but I've seen it before, like here, Yu Li Qigong.

 

Your method sounds to do NAB in a single breath as:

Inhale - Breath in [stomach expands] on the way up on to bai hui,

Exhale - breath out [stomach contracts] on the way down

 

Yang's single breath NAB is:

Inhale - Breath in [stomach expands+perineum expands] on the way down to the LDT, filling it, and settling at tailbone

Exhale - breath out [stomach contracts+perineum contracts/closes] on the way up to bai hui, 

 

Yang's double breath NAB is slightly closer to yours (his second breath is close to your single):

Inhale - Breath in [stomach expands+perineum expands] on the way down to the LDT, filling it.

Exhale - breath out [stomach contracts+perineum contracts/closes] move Qi and settle at tailbone

 

Inhale - Breath in [stomach expands+perineum expands] on the way up to upper back

Exhale - breath out [stomach contracts+perineum contracts/closes] on the way over the head to eyebrows

 

Yang's RAB in a single breath is:

Inhale - Breath in [stomach contracts+perineum contracts/closes] on the way up to bai hui over head to eyebrows

Exhale - breath out [stomach expands+perineum expands]  on the way down to the LDT, filling it, and settling at tailbone

 

Considerations:

1. In the RAB, the main difference is the stomach action is reversed and the inhale sends the Qi up the back.

2. The perineum, if used, should be viewed as an extension of the stomach movement.  If stomach expands, then just treat the perineum as part of the 3-D expansion with it just at the bottom. When the stomach contracts, the perineum closes. It can be tricky as you may think it is moving but it may not be.  It is like a muscle and I spent a lot of time using my hands to verify if it was truly moving or not.   

3. The perineum movement helps to keep the Qi moving in the desired direction instead of going down the legs. 

4. The two breath method NAB helps to 'prime' the LDT with Qi so there is a buildup brought to the tailbone; this buildup then follows the second breath.   Because the second breath is inhaling [stomach and perineum expanding], the Qi doesn't have much force to direct it, so the buildup supplies it.

5. The one breath method NAB also leverages the idea of a LDT buildup of Qi.  This has the advantage that there is buildup of Qi AND on exhale the stomach and perineum are contracting to aid in moving the Qi along.

6. The RAB uses the contraction to assist with guiding the Qi in the upwards direction.  

 

In my experience...

- The role of the perineum is important to help guide and close off any potential downward movement of Qi.   I always viewed it as part of the stomach and treated everything as either expanding or contracting.  So I didn't really view the perineum separate, although it took some time to bring them together as one in my thought and practice.

- I started with the 2 breath.  I liked the slowness and the buildup and the focus I could keep with guiding and moving it along.

- Buildup is important.  If I were to start doing a 1 breath NAB which started with going up the spine, I'd likely want to do at least 15 minutes of LDT Filling at first.  That should give sufficient pressure and power to have inhales moving Qi up the spine without the aid of the perineum.

 

To answer some of your original questions (my opinion): 

- If you lose the sensation, keep going.  If you wait too long in one spot, your mind has also put a halt to something which it was previously telling to undergoing a pattern of circulation.   It is always circulating anyways, so mostly what you develop is the ability to sense the Qi in its flow as you work out some obstructions.  

- I also had areas of feeling it more vs less.

[BiGF00T]

Hello Dawei, first of all, thank you for the long answer elaborating on the different methods of Microscopic Orbit (now I finally know its English name).

 

The book is extremely cheap in the US, not that cheap over here (Germany). The second Google-Books-Link could be purchased as an E-Book for less than half the price. Would the Google-E-book include the stuff from the one you recommended first?

 

You are right, the Yu Li Qigong Link describes pretty much what I do, just that I don't stop the Qi to work with it in the mouth or other places. My Qi-sensation is lowest around the middle dan tian but as you suggested, I'll continue.

 

From your different versions, I see that I could try the two breath version to see if it brings an improvement. I shall also try the perineum thing again and see what it does to my practice.

 

From what you say, I might also lack buildup. Mostly, I sit down, calm down and then just start doing it. I might better start with some patting/shaking, then buildup LDT and eventually start my Microscopic Orbit practice.

[dawei]

Hello Dawei, first of all, thank you for the long answer elaborating on the different methods of Microscopic Orbit (now I finally know its English name).

 

Just to clarify:   Microcosmic Orbit  

 

The book is extremely cheap in the US, not that cheap over here (Germany). The second Google-Books-Link could be purchased as an E-Book for less than half the price. Would the Google-E-book include the stuff from the one you recommended first?

 

The only criticism I can offer towards Yang's books is that he tends to repeat stuff from previous books.  That Google E-book seems to really be two books in one.   The first linked book I provided plus this one:  Tai Chi Chi Kung.

 

So this E-book will probably be better as it will share more info, particularly so forms and movements which is a good balance to MCO.

 

 

You are right, the Yu Li Qigong Link describes pretty much what I do, just that I don't stop the Qi to work with it in the mouth or other places. My Qi-sensation is lowest around the middle dan tian but as you suggested, I'll continue.

 

Yes, i know that some mention stopping but I think following the natural cycle is best at first and for a while.

 

From your different versions, I see that I could try the two breath version to see if it brings an improvement. I shall also try the perineum thing again and see what it does to my practice.

 

And consider 15 minutes of only LDT filling prior.   Two ideas, assuming you do NAB.

1. Inhale deeply to LDT; Exhale freely (without thought or intention on the Qi).  If the LDT fills enough, it will want to being to find the path on its own, which will be up the spine.    Having primed your LDT, it may seem to flow easier too.

 

2. At first, you are just filling the LDT as above but after several minutes begin to visualize the space compressing down into a golden light ball or pearl.    When you feel this pearl is sufficient small, start the MCO and move the pearl through the MCO.  This might help you not think too much about sensation or not; just move the pearl.   When done, finish in the LDT and with several deep breaths into the LDT, let the pearl expand back out and freely go.

 

 

From what you say, I might also lack buildup. Mostly, I sit down, calm down and then just start doing it. I might better start with some patting/shaking, then buildup LDT and eventually start my Microscopic Orbit practice.

 

Lack of buildup is my first thought and my above comments are meant to offer some ideas.

[BiGF00T]

I'll try and see what it does. Thank you again for the time to answer my questions and for sharing your experience.

I'll probably also purchase the e-Book of Mr. Yang and have a look at more theory and see how it fits together with what I know or think I know.

[dawei]

a few more thoughts:

 

The LDT will only hold so much Qi so it is important to NOT over do the filling.  It will naturally want (and need) to move on.  What one guards against is it trying to move down the body... ergo, the spine is the backdoor it should use.  So some will sit cross legged to help that flow.   I personally never did it cross legged and maybe why I relied more on visualization of movement and the perineum.

 

To be fair, there are several on this forum which espouse the MCO in a more natural flow; not using visualization or directing. I'd rather those folks share ideas about that method and you could start another thread if you felt to find out about that.

[BiGF00T]

Got the e-book of Mr.Yang and I must say that it is worth its price. It's even the first e-book I've ever bought. Normally I'm more into normal books but I can see the advantage of full text search and the continuous availability on my smartphone

 

I just passed the point where he talks about "... holding up the hui yin and anus. It is important to know that holding up does not mean lifting up or tensing. Tensing causes qi stagnation."

 

So did I misunderstand it in the past for tensing the anus? How can I understand "holding up" better? In Chinese texts I had always seen 提肛 and thought it meant lifting by tensing the muscles. If no tension of the muscle is involved, how does holding up work? Intention? Thinking about going up?

 

In one of your previous posts, you said "When the stomach contracts, the perineum closes. It can be tricky as you may think it is moving but it may not be.  It is like a muscle and I spent a lot of time using my hands to verify if it was truly moving or not."

 

What was the result of your testing? Was it moving or not? Moving would imply tensing of one or more muscels to me.

[dawei]

Got the e-book of Mr.Yang and I must say that it is worth its price. It's even the first e-book I've ever bought. Normally I'm more into normal books but I can see the advantage of full text search and the continuous availability on my smartphone

 

Very cool

 

I just passed the point where he talks about "... holding up the hui yin and anus. It is important to know that holding up does not mean lifting up or tensing. Tensing causes qi stagnation."

 

So did I misunderstand it in the past for tensing the anus? How can I understand "holding up" better? In Chinese texts I had always seen 提肛 and thought it meant lifting by tensing the muscles. If no tension of the muscle is involved, how does holding up work? Intention? Thinking about going up?

 

In one of your previous posts, you said "When the stomach contracts, the perineum closes. It can be tricky as you may think it is moving but it may not be.  It is like a muscle and I spent a lot of time using my hands to verify if it was truly moving or not."

 

What was the result of your testing? Was it moving or not? Moving would imply tensing of one or more muscels to me.

 

I will say that I only tended to focus on the hui yin's movement; either expanding or contracting in sync with the stomach.  "Holding Up" is maybe a better way of describing it then 'tensing' but that just may be to help understand you don't just close or tense something; it is 'pulled up' in my view in reverse motion of expanding.

 

I found it too me a while to truly pull it up.   Many times I thought it was moving but it was more like my action was attempting to close the anus instead.  There was tension going on, not movement.  The Hui Yin will literally move outward and inward.  It just takes some time to find that exact muscle as part of the breathing and get it to regulate exactly with the breath and stomach.

 

Even after a long breath, I tested again and found it was not moving and after a few tries got it moving again.   

 

Maybe it's like wiggling your nose... my wife can't do it (can't connect to the muscle to move) but it seems rather easy for me.

[Bearded Dragon]

Sometimes the line you feel around the orbit is manufactured tension. Keep this in consideration. In my experience it works better when you don't feel anything other than a relaxation/expansion.

[BiGF00T]

To be fair, there are several on this forum which espouse the MCO in a more natural flow; not using visualization or directing. I'd rather those folks share ideas about that method and you could start another thread if you felt to find out about that.

 

I'm back. After reading through Mr. Yangs book on Taiji Qigong, I've read his book on "The root of Chinese Qigong".

If you say "natural flow without directing", would that be the natural movement of Qi? According to the book "The root of Chinese Qigong", something that reads like a wave of stronger Qi circles once a day around conception and governing vessel. That would be really imperceptibly slow.. If you don't guide it, is it then just moving at this pace? And do people really feel this or did you mean something else?

 

Anyway, I have decided that MCO is still a bit advanced for me and that I'd need a teacher to practice it. For the last about 50 days, I've been doing daily Zhan Zhuang of about 20 minutes per day and am quite happy with it. I still stuggle with my posture and tension and don't even think about doing something energetic except for finding a position in which my body is not tensed up. Sometimes, I get the feeling of Qi somewhere and sometimes it is like Bearded Dragon said in his last post: manufactured tension. At least it keeps me relaxed (confirmed by my wife). After I have found a good posture, I can take Qi into account again. But for now, I'll adjust my body and mind until I'm ready for the next stage.

[Spotless]

Do not ever worry about over filling the LDT.

 

(Obviously forcing anything is unnecessary and not recommended.)

 

If you do nothing but practice Qi Gong and do not concentrate on the MCO, the MCO will make its self know at some point - and it will not be possible to miss it when it happens.

 

Properly done - you will never need to worry about anything with Qi Gong.

 

The more a system requires all sorts of technical "doings" the less authentic it is and the more dogma that has infiltrated it.

 

Qi Gong is an immensely powerful practice - yet all along it is the subtle shift to ones natural patterns and the transforming of the unnatural patterns that brings awareness and grace to you in embodiment. Don't pursue or concern yourself with tricks and flare in Qi Gong - that's kids play - the big stuff is way beyond that and it will aid you well far beyond Awakening.

 

Qi Gong is an Enlightenment practice - Awakening is just a first step in the enlightening process (albeit a complete game changer).

Not to get ahead of this conversation - but worry has no place in your practice - and this practice is unfathomable insofar as how wonderfully powerful and dynamic it acts upon your being embodiment and how far it will gladly take you.

 

The majority of work on your practice is in the little things - and with constant practice most of them or all of them will reveal themselves to you. A good teacher allows the subtleties to emerge from you with a small adjustment here end there - hand placement, angle of hand, arm height, foot placement, fingers apart, head position, left hand over right or right hand over left, different placements for men and women.

 

Your head - mind - is unnecessary - it is not needed - just awareness and the practice itself. Directing the show is not necessary, vision is not necessary, imagining is not necessary except in the Very beginning. It is one of the golden paths in that it requires none of the trappings of the head - simply get out of its way and immerse yourself in it.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Too many qigong systems work with physical qi without ever boosting one to cultivating the shen level. Yes, it might feel like a lot is transpiring - e.g., feeling qi strongly in one's body, or feeling qi rising, or qi at the crown, or siddhis appearing, or self- or other-healing, seeing apparitions, etc. Teachers don't even realize what is transpiring in the microcosmic orbit.

 

This might be difficult to hear for some, but in the end, qi gong is not an enlightenment practice. However, there are other (efficacious) ways to work towards enlightenment.

 

What is an enlightenment practice?

 

From my standpoint it is one that constantly helps to unstick ones attachments - Qi Gong does this beautifully.

 

All the other things are byproducts.

[Spotless]

When I was young and taking some of my first yoga classes - perhaps my first yoga class - a teacher said after teaching some of the basics something like the following:

 

"If you practice these regularly and never take another class or hear from another teacher - everything you wish to know and attain will come to you - all of yoga will unfold on its own."

 

Truer words were never spoken.

 

Qi Gong is like this - it was my approach to it - and as I have worked with my teacher who speaks no English and so we have had almost no dialog - it is not a path that requires much more than regular practice.

 

If one is fortunate enough to Awaken, Qi Gong is an exceptional practice for helping to dissipate remaining unhelpful patterns.

It is also exceptional in the ongoing enlightening not just in dissipating unhelpful patterns but in moving through / within the acclimation processes and in continuing to transform higher bodies as yet unfolded and unfolding.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Spotless

[dwai]

a few more thoughts:

 

The LDT will only hold so much Qi so it is important to NOT over do the filling.  It will naturally want (and need) to move on.  What one guards against is it trying to move down the body... ergo, the spine is the backdoor it should use.  So some will sit cross legged to help that flow.   I personally never did it cross legged and maybe why I relied more on visualization of movement and the perineum.

 

To be fair, there are several on this forum which espouse the MCO in a more natural flow; not using visualization or directing. I'd rather those folks share ideas about that method and you could start another thread if you felt to find out about that.

Why do you say the LDT is limited in how much Qi it can hold? If we are storing the Qi properly, it can hold limitless Qi. In it's essence, the LDT is just a portal to emptiness. The limitation is in how effortlessly we can sink the Qi into the LDT. If we can't do it naturally, we will be burning up Qi by thinking (over-thinking). If we can do it with ease and naturally, it will just keep filling the LDT (as it goes into infinite space inside the LDT). 

 

The reason why we emphasize slow and gradual progression is so that the mind doesn't over-work, as that is the way Qi is depleted. The practice should be developed gradually, with patience.

 

Best,

 

Dwai

[dawei]

Why do you say the LDT is limited in how much Qi it can hold? If we are storing the Qi properly, it can hold limitless Qi. In it's essence, the LDT is just a portal to emptiness. The limitation is in how effortlessly we can sink the Qi into the LDT. If we can't do it naturally, we will be burning up Qi by thinking (over-thinking). If we can do it with ease and naturally, it will just keep filling the LDT (as it goes into infinite space inside the LDT). 

 

I just don't hold that position.  The Qi which I am referring to likes to keep moving; stagnation is not natural.  So it wants to keep moving through the body on some level.

 

If what you refer to as the 'essence of Qi' is more like spirit or light, then I would be closer to agreeing.

[dwai]

I just don't hold that position.  The Qi which I am referring to likes to keep moving; stagnation is not natural.  So it wants to keep moving through the body on some level.

 

If what you refer to as the 'essence of Qi' is more like spirit or light, then I would be closer to agreeing.

Qi is also Light. It is also non-different from Consciousness, it is also Empty. Movement is an appearance based on the movement of the mind. imho.

[joeblast]

Got the e-book of Mr.Yang and I must say that it is worth its price. It's even the first e-book I've ever bought. Normally I'm more into normal books but I can see the advantage of full text search and the continuous availability on my smartphone

 

I just passed the point where he talks about "... holding up the hui yin and anus. It is important to know that holding up does not mean lifting up or tensing. Tensing causes qi stagnation."

 

So did I misunderstand it in the past for tensing the anus? How can I understand "holding up" better? In Chinese texts I had always seen 提肛 and thought it meant lifting by tensing the muscles. If no tension of the muscle is involved, how does holding up work? Intention? Thinking about going up?

 

In one of your previous posts, you said "When the stomach contracts, the perineum closes. It can be tricky as you may think it is moving but it may not be.  It is like a muscle and I spent a lot of time using my hands to verify if it was truly moving or not."

 

What was the result of your testing? Was it moving or not? Moving would imply tensing of one or more muscels to me.

lift as in use only the superficial transverse perineal muscle and the central perineal tendon, and not the group which makes up the levator ani

 

http://webmedia.unmc.edu/medicine/todd/dissection/idg29perineum/p0376malesuperficial.jpg

[dawei]

Qi is also Light. It is also non-different from Consciousness, it is also Empty. Movement is an appearance based on the movement of the mind. imho.

 

Yes, but to use a point you made in another thread... if Light is known then Qi is known for what it really it.  If it is still yet an 'unknown' aspect to someone, then Qi is the more coarse aspect running through one's body. 

 

I believe this thread has been about the latter aspects of knowing Qi as just energy movement and sensation.   So my original comments were talking in regards to what I felt the OP was experiencing (knowing) so far. 

[dwai]

Yes, but to use a point you made in another thread... if Light is known then Qi is known for what it really it.  If it is still yet an 'unknown' aspect to someone, then Qi is the more coarse aspect running through one's body. 

 

I believe this thread has been about the latter aspects of knowing Qi as just energy movement and sensation.   So my original comments were talking in regards to what I felt the OP was experiencing (knowing) so far. 

Thanks for clarifying this. I was merely suggesting to you that it might be easier to understand this in the context of "effort" as in "exertion" vs "effort" without exertion. The intent was to let the OP know that it isn't necessarily about over-filling the LDT but actually draining Qi by over-striving to fill the LDT. 

But you are right about the process of maturation...that's why patience is so important.