Which version of TTC should I get?

[Rara]

Hi! I wrote a post last year about my TTC being gone (never EVER lend to unreliable friends! Why do I never listen?) The Chuang Tzu was stolen (well my bag was and the book was inside)

 

I have had a £15 Amazon voucher since Christmas so I might as well cash in. Which version of TTC do you reccommend? I think I already have my eyes on Burton Watson's Chuang Tzu...

Edited March 13, 2016 by Rara

[leth]

In general, no one English translation is good enough, and in general english translations are inherently flawed and one really have to go back to the source with the full knowledge of the sociolingusitic context to fully understand it. But most people will not walk down that road, or have not walked it long enough to be able to do this and for such people I suggest that one finds one of the english versions who atleast discusses the problems of translating and tries to give some insight into the sociolinguistic context. A great introduction to this is D. C. Lau's Bilingual Edition, which although not perfect does infact give one a good starting point in these matters.

 

As for Zhuangzi, I do recommend Brook Ziporyn's version for similar reasons even though it is rather limited.

 

 

But of course if one is limited to english it is always best to get many versions and sources.

Edited March 13, 2016 by leth

[Marblehead]

I think Watson for Chuang Tzu is a good choice.

 

I have always recommended Robert G Henricks for the TTC.

[Sebastian]

I like Ni Hua Ching's version, which arguably contains his family's interpretation of it, so it is a more personal piece. You could say it has less direct translation than others.

 

However the interpretation is informed by a few things : his own experiences, his family's lineage, and he is also a living Daoist Master, definitely not a scholar. With that, I think he at least has his word to say.

 

I like taking this book of his on vacation trips. It includes the Hua Hu Ching as well.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Works-Lao-Tzu-Ching/dp/0937064009/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1457878323&sr=8-4&keywords=ni+hua+ching

[leth]

I think Watson for Chuang Tzu is a good choice.

 

It is.

 

I have always recommended Robert G Henricks for the TTC.

 

His translations are great.

[Rara]

In general, no one English translation is good enough, and in general english translations are inherently flawed and one really have to go back to the source with the full knowledge of the sociolingusitic context to fully understand it. But most people will not walk down that road, or have not walked it long enough to be able to do this and for such people I suggest that one finds one of the english versions who atleast discusses the problems of translating and tries to give some insight into the sociolinguistic context. A great introduction to this is D. C. Lau's Bilingual Edition, which although not perfect does infact give one a good starting point in these matters.

 

As for Zhuangzi, I do recommend Brook Ziporyn's version for similar reasons even though it is rather limited.

 

 

But of course if one is limited to english it is always best to get many versions and sources.

Yes I'm one of "those". For example, I bought the cheapest TTC and Chuang Tzu I could find as an introduction. Now I'm after something that, yes, will address the language/contextual issues but won't be too extreme for me to read. Would you say Marblehead's suggestion might be more for me in this case?

[Jonesboy]

I really like this one:

 

http://www.life-in-crisis.info/dao-de-jhing.pdf

[leth]

Yes I'm one of "those". For example, I bought the cheapest TTC and Chuang Tzu I could find as an introduction. Now I'm after something that, yes, will address the language/contextual issues but won't be too extreme for me to read. Would you say Marblehead's suggestion might be more for me in this case?

 

Both marbleheads and my suggestions are good. When it comes to laozi I prefere Henriks translations myself, but if you're going to buy both Lau's and Henricks (which i recommend) I recommend you first buy Lau's and read throught that and then buy Henricks' translations (notice the plural here) becuase that is the chronology of their release and as such you'll get the scholastic progressin in order, but ti really doesnt matter and as i said I prefere henricks myself. As for zhuangzi there are ups and downs, Ziporyns doesn't have all the chapters, but then again there is a reason why, and it also has a lot of historical comments which are interesting. And once again getting both would be adviced, though for scholastic reasons you might want to buy watsons first here and then use Ziporyns for further details at a later state.

[Michael Sternbach]

Why only get one? Get them all!

 

Well, maybe not exactly all of them, but I really recommend Tao Te Ching - Six Complete Translations. It contains the versions by Dwight Goddard and Henri Borel, Aleister Crowley, Lionel Giles, Walter Gorn-Old, Isabella Mears, and James Legge.

 

As there can be no ultimate translation of the TTC, I feel it's best to have different translations at hand for reference. Comparing them with each other can be quite illuminating.

[Rara]

Both marbleheads and my suggestions are good. When it comes to laozi I prefere Henriks translations myself, but if you're going to buy both Lau's and Henricks (which i recommend) I recommend you first buy Lau's and read throught that and then buy Henricks' translations (notice the plural here) becuase that is the chronology of their release and as such you'll get the scholastic progressin in order, but ti really doesnt matter and as i said I prefere henricks myself. As for zhuangzi there are ups and downs, Ziporyns doesn't have all the chapters, but then again there is a reason why, and it also has a lot of historical comments which are interesting. And once again getting both would be adviced, though for scholastic reasons you might want to buy watsons first here and then use Ziporyns for further details at a later state.

Thank you, this has been very helpful! I will probably go for Watson's Zhuanzi then because I enjoyed a lot of the later/outer chapters when I first read, so I would like to have versions of these still.

[Rara]

I really like this one:

 

http://www.life-in-crisis.info/dao-de-jhing.pdf

Thanks for the link, although it's specifically a hard copy I would like. I use too mucb technology as it is

[Rara]

Why only get one? Get them all!

 

Well, maybe not exactly all of them, but I really recommend Tao Te Ching - Six Complete Translations. It contains the versions by Dwight Goddard and Henri Borel, Aleister Crowley, Lionel Giles, Walter Gorn-Old, Isabella Mears, and James Legge.

 

As there can be no ultimate translation of the TTC, I feel it's best to have different translations at hand for reference. Comparing them with each other can be quite illuminating.

Or that haha. Have you read Hendricks' and Lau's? Just wondering if you have a comparisson between your suggestions and leth's

[Michael Sternbach]

Or that haha. Have you read Hendricks' and Lau's? Just wondering if you have a comparisson between your suggestions and leth's

 

No. But if I had to opt for a single English version, it would probably be the one by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English. Besides a good translation, it contains the original Chinese characters and artful photography that make the book a joy to read.

[leth]

Well, maybe not exactly all of them, but I really recommend Tao Te Ching - Six Complete Translations. It contains the versions by Dwight Goddard and Henri Borel, Aleister Crowley, Lionel Giles, Walter Gorn-Old, Isabella Mears, and James Legge.

 

While I agree that there is a point in having many different translations i just have to say that this collection is horrible and very outdated in terms of our understanding of the text.

[Geof Nanto]

As has been already mentioned no definitive translation is possible due to the ambiguous nature of this multi-layered text. Hence I've found translations with commentary to be very helpful. A couple of examples that haven't been mentioned...

 

Richard Lynn's translation of with commentary by Wang Bi (c 240 AD) is very good.

 

Roger Ames and David Hall's philosophical translation has much interesting interpretation and an excellent glossary of key terms.

 

I have about 10 different version and find them all helpful. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. By comparing them it's possible to gain some insight into the biases of the translators. For a terse, unadorned translation I like Stephen Addiss and Stanley Lombardo's version. 

 

As to the Zhuangzi, as well as Burton Watson's and Brook  Ziporyn's, both A. C. Graham's and Victor Mair's translations are well worth a look.   

[Michael Sternbach]

While I agree that there is a point in having many different translations i just have to say that this collection is horrible and very outdated in terms of our understanding of the text.

 

I looked at an online version of Henrick's translation. I doubt that it is really an advancement compared to older versions.

 

 

 

 

[Geof Nanto]

Here's an interesting new book by poet and translator David Hinton. I like his nature based interpretations of Daoism. He speaks from his personal experience of wilderness. 

 

 

The Four Chinese Classics : Tao Te Ching, Analects, Chuang Tzu, Mencius

 

 

 

Also, I highly recommend his essays in Hunger Mountain. "It's  a beautiful and compelling meditation on consciousness and the cosmos through a series of peregrinations around and beyond the intricacies of Chinese philosophy and religion: Animist, Taoist, Buddhist. East and West are joined here by an American poet who is one of best scholars and translators of Chinese classical poetry."   http://www.davidhinton.net/

[Michael Sternbach]

Imo, The Book of Chuang Tzu by Martin Palmer is pretty good.

[leth]

As has been already mentioned no definitive translation is possible due to the ambiguous nature of this multi-layered text. Hence I've found translations with commentary to be very helpful. A couple of examples that haven't been mentioned...

 

Richard Lynn's translation of with commentary by Wang Bi (c 240 AD) is very good.

 

Roger Ames and David Hall's philosophical translation has much interesting interpretation and an excellent glossary of key terms.

 

I have about 10 different version and find them all helpful. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. By comparing them it's possible to gain some insight into the biases of the translators. For a terse, unadorned translation I like Stephen Addiss and Stanley Lombardo's version. 

 

As to the Zhuangzi, as well as Burton Watson's and Brook  Ziporyn's, both A. C. Graham's and Victor Mair's translations are well worth a look.   

 

These are all good suggestions, and I feel that between this post, my suggestions and Marbleheads suggestions we have found a good core of works that should all be part of a colleciton of translations.

[dawei]

Thanks for the link, although it's specifically a hard copy I would like. I use too mucb technology as it is

 

This is rather limiting to academic authors supported by publishers.... but I'll give a few links so you can read from some authors that you can find as published books.

 

 

from here 

 

Ni, Link already given for amazon

 

Chan

 

Hinton , link already given for multiple publications

 

Moss Roberts

 

As for Flowing Hands version and others online.. Just print them out.  If you like them enough, simply bind them for a few dollars... much cheaper than any book

[Dainin]

I like Red Pine's because he provides excerpts from multiple commentaries for each chapter.

 

A more obscure one that I really like is Guy Leekley's. He was an interesting scholar from Asheville, who died last year.

 

Here he is reading some excerpts on Vimeo:

 

https://vimeo.com/138042398

 

 

[Rara]

Hello! Just dropping in to say that I went for the D.C Lau version of TTC. How interesting...it is quite different. It's actually changed my perspective quite a lot! Funny isn't it?

 

It is good that it comes with such a detailed and informative introduction - very useful for a western reader to put things into context

[blackstar212]

My favorite so far.

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html

[Rara]

My favorite so far.

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html

Yes in fact, someone in this forum posted this site a few years ago for me when my inital copy went missing. I was travelling around on trains a lot back then so it was good to pull up on my phone

[flowing hands]

Hi Rara

 

I was a little disappointed in your choice of versions of the DDJ  Back in 1997 when Li Erh came to me to teach his understandings I showed him many translations of what he was supposed to have written. D.C. Lau he said was the worst translation of them all! Of course I am biased in terms that what he taught me, but I think what I have given is far more understable than many version which make little sense.

 

Still we all have our own perspectives and this is why many people like some versions over my transmission.

Edited December 12, 2016 by flowing hands