The origin of mankind

[Karl]

I love tools. Wish I had known about carbide tipped chisels when I was pounding out brickwork to install concealed electrical boxes. I used a thing called a scutch comb, which was quite effective and stayed sharp throughout its life-it might be carbide as it is still pretty sharp and I still use it after 20 years. The comb tip can be replaced, but I've never needed to do that.

 

I'm off to play with my torque wrenches and cobalt twist drills :-)

Edited March 27, 2016 by Karl

[Stosh]

Those carbide tipped iron tools are the result of a whole technology, far more sophisticated than hacking rocks , to entertain that logically, Im thinking one needs some independent proof of that.

Use of iron doesnt alone indicate that the iron was up to the task.

Simpler would be to seive and separate sand down to its hardest components,for abrasives , which would happen anyway during some grinding procedures. Stones such as diorite and granite and basalt do vary somewhat in constituency, and hardness, so Im thinking one could theoretically work diorite with diorite, youd wear the tools down fast , but youd be using waste.That should be easily proven with the stone hammer. Im thinking that for the larger blocks splitting with wedges and pounding flat would go fastest, but one could also picture an abrading pendulum rope or even a wheel,, question still remains if it can be done fast enough to make millions of the things.

Holding the alien visitor fans to the same level of scrutiny , ya gotta give positive evidence of the means used and I dont think that has been supplied.

 

 

[thelerner]

This site has many good insights into pyramid building: this breaks down the (possible) numbers as well as giving historical assumptions- http://www.cheops-pyramide.ch/khufu-pyramid/pyramid-workers.html and http://www.cheops-pyramide.ch/khufu-pyramid/pyramid-construction.html .  Just incorporating rope and pulleys (see Franz Löhner's rope roll) intelligently could cut the time and manpower substantially, and the Egyptians were pretty smart. 

 

Possible numbers (from the site)

"

Stone quarries in Giza (limestone for the main body of the pyramid)

• In the stone quarries in Giza 500 blocks daily (an average of 431 blocks rounded to 500) were quarried from the wall in square formats. Using the usual methods where stones are levered with wooden beams from the bedrock a team of 8 men can lever 2 to 3 stones per hour. For the 500 stones daily you need 25 teams.
• 80 men had to make sure, that the stones fell on soft ground instead of hard rock. A bed of soft material like sand or soil is put down where the stone is likely to fall. In such a way no stones crack and no corners are chipped.
• 6 men fasten the stone to a sledge (incl. overseer and water carrier = 8 men). Calculating 4 hours to lever the stones and tighten them on the sledge a team could handle 32 stones per day. For 500 stones we need 16 teams (rounded)

Next step: Transporting the stones to the pyramid building yard

200 stone-breakers / quarrymen and stonemasons

(= 25 teams of 8 men)

80 men to make sure, the stones fall on a soft bed

130 men for loading stones

410  TOTAL Stone quarries in Tura (white limestone for the outer casing)

• The casing stones were primarily used during the first years of construction, so we calculate with 10 instead of 20 years. The white stones for the outer casing were made to order. The stone breakers cut the stone accurately to size and with the right inclination of 52°. The angles of the outer stones were cut here and not at the pyramid. If there were any cracks, the stone was discarded immediately. The corner stones had to meet even stricter criteria.
• This precise work was slower, so we calculate that a team (see above) required 75 minutes for breaking off a stone. The daily output was around 6.5 stones per team. If we stipulate, that the work should be finished in 10 years, 69 Tura stones should be quarried per day (assuming 290 working days per year). We calculate 11 teams (88 men), together with helpers, overseers etc. about 120 men.
• 40 men had to make sure, that the stones fell on soft ground instead of hard rock.
• The stones had to be handled with care when loading them on the sledges. The wooden levers were wrapped with straw and the cargo was specially secured. A 8-men-team probably only handled 3 stones per hour which works out to 25 stones per day. With 69 stones per day we need 3 teams of 8 men each (=24 men, rounded to 30 men).
• The stones had to be transported to the Nile. The sledges with the stones were loaded on boats and shipped to Giza. Hauling teams of 15 men [3] haul the stones down to the Nile. They can handle 6 stones daily. We calculate 12 teams of 15 men each, adding 10 men for supervising and helpers we get 190 men.

Next step: Transport to Giza on the Nile

120 stone-breakers / quarrymen and stonemasons

(11 teams of 8 men incl. overseer, helpers, water carriers)

40 men to make sure, the stones fall on a soft bed

30 men for loading stones (3 teams of 8 men, rounded)

190 haulers(12 teams of 15 men plus 10 helpers)

 380 TOTAL Stone quarries in Aswan (granite for the King's Chamber and the Grand Gallery)

• In the open quarries of Aswan the granite was worked as follows (more information): The stone was pried from the bedrock by inserting several wedges. First a series of holes has to be drilled. We propose, that like in the ancient quarries of Europe not an actual drill was used but a forged chisel. With the hard granite this is only possible with iron tools. The stone has to be cut along its cleavage plane, that is the structure by which certain rocks split most readily.
• A man sits on the stone holding the chisel perpendicular to the surface to where a hole is placed and three men pound on the chisel with sledge hammers by turns. After each hit the chisel is rotated by one eighth until the hole is 10 to 15cm deep. A row of holes is drilled in such a way along the cleavage. Now a pair of metal shims are inserted in each hole with a wedge between and lubricated. Each wedge in the row is pounded until a thin crack forms between the wedges and the rock can be levered apart.
• For the granite stones we need 2 teams in two shifts with one man holding the chisel and 9 men (3 times 3 men) pounding. Each half hour the shift is relieved, because this kind of work is very exhausting. An average granite stone can be cut in such a way in one day. Even calculating that it takes 20 times longer to cut a granite stone (1 block every 20 days) it was still possible to cut the required blocks in only 10 years.
• A team of 20 men is loading the granite blocks onto sledges and 25 men haul them to the harbor (1.5km away - we calculate 120 min. to haul a stone there and walk back). A team can haul 4 stones per day (with rope rolls). Still tied to their sledges the stones are shipped down the Nile to Giza.
• If one of the large 40-tons block had to be transported, additional workers from other quarries were asked to help.

Next step: Transport to Giza on the Nile..

..

..

additional large team for transporting the occasional 40-tons st

TOTALLY 1170 workers in the quarries are extracting all the stones necessary by breaking them from the bedrock and into square blocks.

Edited March 27, 2016 by thelerner

[Stosh]

Well done ,if all this checks out.. full total 6700 men , I think you may spike the football and dance around the goal posts.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Stosh

[Karl]

They think its all over....it is now.

[Marblehead]

But I didn't hear the fat lady sing.

[Nungali]

It is generally known that the Ancient Egyptians were limited to using copper, and later bronze and wood. For instance, see Stocks, Denys: Experiments in Egyptian Archaeology - Stoneworking Technology in Ancient Egypt, pp. 58-63.

 

It is  generally known that way before that and after it they used stone tools ....    at one stage they had stone tools and copper mostly  , but also had the use of iron.  This 'copper only period' was soon superseded by bronze. 

 

You have gone from a claim of  'only had copper saws'   too  'were limited to using copper, and later bronze and wood'. 

 

You aren't trying to move the goal posts are you Michael ? 

[Nungali]

This is full of unproven assumptions. Especially Petrie often concludes that something must have been done in a certain way because he can't think of any other. But there is no real evidence.

 

 

Do you really want to be buried in a landslide of very well accepted academic data about this ?  

 

Or are you going to still maintain it could have been aliens without offering any proof yourself ? 

 

If you walk past me holding a glass of wine and go into another room and I hear a smash and go in and you are standing there, and the glass is broken on the floor, I will assume you probably dropped it or something similar .... even though I never saw it happen ....  as opposed to imagining a UFO went by the window and shot it out of your hand with a laser beam . 

 

But thats me .... 

[Nungali]

So , umm.. which of those tools cuts multi ton rock cubes at high speed? Is it the wooden stick ,? or the round rock?

 

 

Oh right .... lets add   "at high speed"   

 

 

Anyone else got some things I never claimed at at all to add to the mix to try and disprove things ? 

 

There is quite good evidence that round  rocks  (pounders ) were used to remove varve out massive blocks  and people have demonstrated the process.  A wooden stick is also 'efficient' and was used to  cut and split many rocks. 

 

Try and figure it out yourself and see if you are a match for these ancient minds ... yes, they did use wooden sticks as part of the stone cutting process,  try and work out how  (as it seems you dont know ) . 

 

Or, you could just sit back in your modern superiority and smirk at all this. 

 

These are important stages in the development of the unique skill sets of 'mankind' and its development. 

[ralis]

Those carbide tipped iron tools are the result of a whole technology, far more sophisticated than hacking rocks , to entertain that logically, Im thinking one needs some independent proof of that. Use of iron doesnt alone indicate that the iron was up to the task. Simpler would be to seive and separate sand down to its hardest components,for abrasives , which would happen anyway during some grinding procedures. Stones such as diorite and granite and basalt do vary somewhat in constituency, and hardness, so Im thinking one could theoretically work diorite with diorite, youd wear the tools down fast , but youd be using waste.That should be easily proven with the stone hammer. Im thinking that for the larger blocks splitting with wedges and pounding flat would go fastest, but one could also picture an abrading pendulum rope or even a wheel,, question still remains if it can be done fast enough to make millions of the things. Holding the alien visitor fans to the same level of scrutiny , ya gotta give positive evidence of the means used and I dont think that has been supplied.

 

I am not advocating alien influence for construction since I have no idea as to why aliens would have an interest in such a primitive species as humans. The mystery still remains as to how granite and limestone was cut with primitive tools fabricated from copper and poor quality iron. Iron is only made strong with the additional of certain elements, otherwise, iron is too soft for any extensive stone fabrication.

[Nungali]

It cannot be proven or refuted at present.

.

Not totally 100% sure of every technique they used but the evidence from a wide range of sources is pretty clear.  You just need to study the science of it and not the fantasy of the uneducated about it ( like VonDanniken and  Handcock ... they have been well exposed . quite some time back . Their proponents make as much sense as religious fanatics ... thats why people get so emotive about it  and them.

 

 

All we can do is present what makes the most sense to us, considering the whole of the picture that we are individually aware of.

 

Thats what Egyptologists and others do , thats what I am doing here. 

 

You have to get an holistic picture. These building techniques are common all over the world ; giant slabs in Lebanon, massive architecture in Egypt, pyramids and massive stone blocks in Sth America, the Moai in  Easter Island   ( and there is a great case of evidence of 'stone pounding carving technique' )  Orkney Islands  .... all progressed with similar stone techniques , being massive, and later in their history, they developed metal tools, blocks became less massive and the work not as good. 

 

Now, I know some will claim this as evidence of some alien or super or anti-diluviuan race going around instructing people  ...

 

 

but the time scales are way out !

 

So we either have to postulate that  these are levels of human accomplishment and develop alongside human societies and discoveries at different stages at different times in different parts of the world  

 

or 

 

aliens went around and taught first the Egyptians and then others and  thousands of years later the Mayans and Aztecs (while Europeans built cathedrals )  ....   and then hundreds of years later came to Australia and started showing the Aboriginals how to carve stone channels through bedrock to link one watercourse with another to start the continents first aquaculture project.

 

And not only that ... came and taught each group in stages hundreds of years apart  .....   maybe they will be back soon to teach the aboriginals how to make those stone channels deeper and then undercut and remove a block and start making their own pyramids ? 

 

 

 

Always, we are only able to accept what we have resonance with. And what this boils down to in the case at hand is our understanding of humans (and other intelligent beings in the Universe), and their history.

 

There is certain learning and  development required to be able to properly analise the evidence aside from projecting ones desires into it.

 

I highly recommend John Romer's Book 'Ancient Egypt - from the first farmers to the Great Pyramid' - its preface has a long section on  interpreting empirical evidence without cultural or religious bias - an essential read for any serious student of the subject ! 

 

Just in case people dont realise - I am no way a materialist ... i used to love reading and believing in Von Daniken, Sitchin and all the rest ... they used to be my hero's ... until I started studying things with a more open mind.  My thirst for knowledge was behind that, I wanted to learn all I could as well as what they wrote. 

 

But I know, subjects like this, when enflamed with near religious fervor will throw that out the window ... and it can become just as useless as a religious conversation is for some . 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

Oh! So they did find the giant diamond tipped bronze circular saw ?

 

Dont even need diamond tip .       I have a bag (left over from experiments) of topaz sand .... its about  1 and 1/2 times heaveier than beach sand and 'cuts' excellently . 

 

Of course they didnt use the copper blunt teeth of a saw to cut hard stone 

 

Use your noggin man !    Try thinking smarts like ...   

 

'Think like an Egyptian" !   

 

 

One of the most famous stones left behind is the Unfinished Obelisk, more than twice the size of any known obelisk ever raised. Quarrymen apparently abandoned the obelisk when fractures appeared in its sides. However, the stone, still attached to bedrock, gives important clues to how the ancients quarried granite. 

 

Archeologist Mark Lehner, a key member of nova expedition, crouches in a granite trench that abuts one side of the Unfinished Obelisk. Lehner holds a piece of dolerite similar to the kind that he and others believe Egyptian quarrymen used to pound out the trench around the edges of the obelisk. They then lifted the pulverized granite dust out of the trenches with baskets. Evidence also exists that workers pounded underneath the obelisk until the monument rested on a thin spine. 

 

Lehner says that huge levers were probably used to snap the obelisk from its spine, freeing it so it could be carved more finely and transported. Archeologists know that the ancient Egyptians had the skills to forge bronze and copper tools. Stonemason Roger Hopkins takes up a copper chisel, which works well when carving sandstone and limestone rock, to see if it might carve granite. 

 

"We're losing a lot of metal and very little stone is falling off," observes Hopkins, which is hardly the desired result. Hopkins' simple experiment makes this much clear: The Egyptians needed better tools than soft bronze and copper chisels to carve granite. As a young man, Denys Stocks was obsessed with the Egyptians. For the past 20 years, this ancient-tools specialist has been recreating tools the Egyptians might have used. He believes Egyptians were able to cut and carve granite by adding a dash of one of Egypt's most common materials: sand. 

 

"We're going to put sand inside the groove and we're going to put the saw on top of the sand," Stocks says. "Then we're going to let the sand do the cutting." 

 

 

read this and look at the pictures   ;      http://egyptraveluxe.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/add-caption-today-quarrymen-cut-and.html

[ralis]

http://coralcastle.com/

 

This guy built these amazing structures by himself from blocks of coral.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by ralis

[Stosh]

Nungali, Time is a very important factor. water can erode a rock, but it takes a long time, just pouring it on. Chain saws made a huge difference in the processing of lumber. I think its quite fair to expect your tools to do the job in under a century.You indicated that these were the tools that proved aliens werent required to build the pyramids. Something about these tools should indicate that capacity. A picture of a waterskin wouldnt suffice, whether they used them or not. , The learners guy, doesnt have direct proof of required wrought iron tools used in the required capacity, and considering the iron was more valued than gold, Id speculate it wasnt used so much, but in just exempting that one shortfall, the logistics and technology appear to at least obviate an extraterrestrial agent. His big game changer is the rope roll, again he doesnt have much proof that it was used other than it would work.. supposedly. Besides, Im already familiar with the employees barracks, and sledges and so forth, which aliens dont need.

[Nungali]

Hancock assumes that knowledge from Atlantis was applied. This is a very reasonable theory in my view; I don't insist at all that the pyramids were built by aliens, even though I have no doubt that extraterrestrials have been visiting our planet since ancient times. What I suggest is that the pyramids were built using advanced technology.

 

You arent going to bring up Atlantis again ? !  

 

Remember where we left off ?  You were going to return with more pertinent info  .... still waiting ! 

 

It is not a reasonable view at all IMO  and indicates a certain lack of reason trumped by an emotive 'want to believe' . 

 

I assume that is a factor in your astrological makeup        

 

Okay .... I agree with you that that the Egyptians had advance technology ... they developed it !   If not, please explain where it came from .....  reasonably ... not by some fictional fantasy. 

[Nungali]

I happen to have quite a bit of experience with carbide tipped chisels. These are the finest tools for stone masonry work and are appropriate for a wide range of applications. To sharpen a carbide tipped chisel one must only use a silicone carbide grinding wheel as opposed to standard bench grinding wheels which would ruin the the tool.

 

Trow and Holden demonstrates carbide tipped chisels which they manufacture. These chisels are not cheap, but are absolutely worth the money. The stone being fabricated in the videos is granite.

 

 

 

http://www.rockandtools.com/differences-between-carbide-and-steel/

 

 

Nice tools   ......   check this guy;

 

 

[ralis]

Nice tools   ......   check this guy;

 

 

 

Looks like he is fabricating a sedimentary rock by the way it is chipping.

[Nungali]

Those carbide tipped iron tools are the result of a whole technology, far more sophisticated than hacking rocks , to entertain that logically, Im thinking one needs some independent proof of that. Use of iron doesnt alone indicate that the iron was up to the task. Simpler would be to seive and separate sand down to its hardest components,for abrasives , which would happen anyway during some grinding procedures. Stones such as diorite and granite and basalt do vary somewhat in constituency, and hardness, so Im thinking one could theoretically work diorite with diorite, youd wear the tools down fast , but youd be using waste.That should be easily proven with the stone hammer. Im thinking that for the larger blocks splitting with wedges and pounding flat would go fastest, but one could also picture an abrading pendulum rope or even a wheel,, question still remains if it can be done fast enough to make millions of the things. Holding the alien visitor fans to the same level of scrutiny , ya gotta give positive evidence of the means used and I dont think that has been supplied.

 

There is some evidence on blocks that the rope and sand method was used.  One guy demonstrated it as a technique to get blocks to fit exactly; the rope and 'grit' is put between two already cut and stacked blocks and used to match surfaces as it is ground down.

 

I sat for ages transfixed in New Zealand watching a Maori do the most intricate of stone carving with cotton thread and  stone powder , the thread kept wearing out, but he would just move on to a new length and keep going.  he had a few in his bag and would work on them all the time  ( not having TV or the internet probably helped his time management   ) 

 

[Nungali]

This site has many good insights into pyramid building: this breaks down the (possible) numbers as well as giving historical assumptions- http://www.cheops-pyramide.ch/khufu-pyramid/pyramid-workers.html and http://www.cheops-pyramide.ch/khufu-pyramid/pyramid-construction.html .  Just incorporating rope and pulleys (see Franz Löhner's rope roll) intelligently could cut the time and manpower substantially, and the Egyptians were pretty smart. 

 

Possible numbers (from the site)

"

Stone quarries in Giza (limestone for the main body of the pyramid)

• In the stone quarries in Giza 500 blocks daily (an average of 431 blocks rounded to 500) were quarried from the wall in square formats. Using the usual methods where stones are levered with wooden beams from the bedrock a team of 8 men can lever 2 to 3 stones per hour. For the 500 stones daily you need 25 teams.
• 80 men had to make sure, that the stones fell on soft ground instead of hard rock. A bed of soft material like sand or soil is put down where the stone is likely to fall. In such a way no stones crack and no corners are chipped.
• 6 men fasten the stone to a sledge (incl. overseer and water carrier = 8 men). Calculating 4 hours to lever the stones and tighten them on the sledge a team could handle 32 stones per day. For 500 stones we need 16 teams (rounded)

Next step: Transporting the stones to the pyramid building yard

200 stone-breakers / quarrymen and stonemasons

(= 25 teams of 8 men)

80 men to make sure, the stones fall on a soft bed

130 men for loading stones

410  TOTAL Stone quarries in Tura (white limestone for the outer casing)

• The casing stones were primarily used during the first years of construction, so we calculate with 10 instead of 20 years. The white stones for the outer casing were made to order. The stone breakers cut the stone accurately to size and with the right inclination of 52°. The angles of the outer stones were cut here and not at the pyramid. If there were any cracks, the stone was discarded immediately. The corner stones had to meet even stricter criteria.
• This precise work was slower, so we calculate that a team (see above) required 75 minutes for breaking off a stone. The daily output was around 6.5 stones per team. If we stipulate, that the work should be finished in 10 years, 69 Tura stones should be quarried per day (assuming 290 working days per year). We calculate 11 teams (88 men), together with helpers, overseers etc. about 120 men.
• 40 men had to make sure, that the stones fell on soft ground instead of hard rock.
• The stones had to be handled with care when loading them on the sledges. The wooden levers were wrapped with straw and the cargo was specially secured. A 8-men-team probably only handled 3 stones per hour which works out to 25 stones per day. With 69 stones per day we need 3 teams of 8 men each (=24 men, rounded to 30 men).
• The stones had to be transported to the Nile. The sledges with the stones were loaded on boats and shipped to Giza. Hauling teams of 15 men [3] haul the stones down to the Nile. They can handle 6 stones daily. We calculate 12 teams of 15 men each, adding 10 men for supervising and helpers we get 190 men.

Next step: Transport to Giza on the Nile

120 stone-breakers / quarrymen and stonemasons

(11 teams of 8 men incl. overseer, helpers, water carriers)

40 men to make sure, the stones fall on a soft bed

30 men for loading stones (3 teams of 8 men, rounded)

190 haulers(12 teams of 15 men plus 10 helpers)

 380 TOTAL Stone quarries in Aswan (granite for the King's Chamber and the Grand Gallery)

• In the open quarries of Aswan the granite was worked as follows (more information): The stone was pried from the bedrock by inserting several wedges. First a series of holes has to be drilled. We propose, that like in the ancient quarries of Europe not an actual drill was used but a forged chisel. With the hard granite this is only possible with iron tools. The stone has to be cut along its cleavage plane, that is the structure by which certain rocks split most readily.
• A man sits on the stone holding the chisel perpendicular to the surface to where a hole is placed and three men pound on the chisel with sledge hammers by turns. After each hit the chisel is rotated by one eighth until the hole is 10 to 15cm deep. A row of holes is drilled in such a way along the cleavage. Now a pair of metal shims are inserted in each hole with a wedge between and lubricated. Each wedge in the row is pounded until a thin crack forms between the wedges and the rock can be levered apart.
• For the granite stones we need 2 teams in two shifts with one man holding the chisel and 9 men (3 times 3 men) pounding. Each half hour the shift is relieved, because this kind of work is very exhausting. An average granite stone can be cut in such a way in one day. Even calculating that it takes 20 times longer to cut a granite stone (1 block every 20 days) it was still possible to cut the required blocks in only 10 years.
• A team of 20 men is loading the granite blocks onto sledges and 25 men haul them to the harbor (1.5km away - we calculate 120 min. to haul a stone there and walk back). A team can haul 4 stones per day (with rope rolls). Still tied to their sledges the stones are shipped down the Nile to Giza.
• If one of the large 40-tons block had to be transported, additional workers from other quarries were asked to help.

Next step: Transport to Giza on the Nile..

..

..

additional large team for transporting the occasional 40-tons st

TOTALLY 1170 workers in the quarries are extracting all the stones necessary by breaking them from the bedrock and into square blocks.

 

 

Now ... factor in how great their skills may have been and maybe we could reduce those numbers . 

 

 

How many guys does it take to turn, move or raise a giant block  (with 'primitive techknowledgey ' )  ?  

 

 

One !  

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCvx5gSnfW4

[Nungali]

Nungali, Time is a very important factor. water can erode a rock, but it takes a long time, just pouring it on. Chain saws made a huge difference in the processing of lumber. I think its quite fair to expect your tools to do the job in under a century.You indicated that these were the tools that proved aliens werent required to build the pyramids. Something about these tools should indicate that capacity. A picture of a waterskin wouldnt suffice, whether they used them or not. , The learners guy, doesnt have direct proof of required wrought iron tools used in the required capacity, and considering the iron was more valued than gold, Id speculate it wasnt used so much, but in just exempting that one shortfall, the logistics and technology appear to at least obviate an extraterrestrial agent. His big game changer is the rope roll, again he doesnt have much proof that it was used other than it would work.. supposedly. Besides, Im already familiar with the employees barracks, and sledges and so forth, which aliens dont need.

 

 

Some say there isnt enough barracks for the employees .    I guess they slept in  ....      

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

I have a lot of sympathy with the idea that there were skills from earlier times - and the more ancient dating of the older and superior stone work. It's well established that sacred architecture is placed on earlier sites - so no problem with the sites of sphinx and pyramids being much earlier in line with the Egyptians own timescales. So happy with all that - or at least open to it as a possibility.

 

Given the size and number of stars with planets in the universe it is more likely than not that life elsewhere exists and also more advanced than us. have they visited? what's the evidence? if it was frequent there should be hard and fast evidence surely which there isn't.

There is a large body of evidence (although hotly debated, of course) by a number of researchers into extraterrestrial visits both in ancient and modern times. No way that I can go into that, within the limitations of this thread, but if you wish, I will guide you to books and DVDs on the topic.

[Michael Sternbach]

It's bogus because you can provide no objective scientific evidence of a causal link. If something is true, then it is consistently true. Drop a coin and it falls towards the earth. Do this repeatedly and after a few million goes we can reasonably infer that it isn't going to fly off in some other direction. People that believe in astrology confirm their bias by wanting astrological charts-why ? Don't they know who they are ?

 

So it must have been just chance that I was able to make several pertinent statements about somebody completely unknown to me in this and a number of other cases, just by looking at their chart.

 

There may be acausal links and/or causal links that are not yet understood by science (there are certain theories though).

 

And only a fool would believe they know everything about themselves worth knowing.

[Michael Sternbach]

It is  generally known that way before that and after it they used stone tools ....    at one stage they had stone tools and copper mostly  , but also had the use of iron.  This 'copper only period' was soon superseded by bronze. 

 

You have gone from a claim of  'only had copper saws'   too  'were limited to using copper, and later bronze and wood'. 

 

You aren't trying to move the goal posts are you Michael ? 

 

Nope. Talk about being fussy...

[Michael Sternbach]

Do you really want to be buried in a landslide of very well accepted academic data about this ?  

 

Mind you, I am not afraid of that kind of information, but open to it. I'm quite used to dealing with academic data, my library is full with it. But being well accepted by academics doesn't make something true automatically.

 

Or are you going to still maintain it could have been aliens without offering any proof yourself ? 

 

There is no hard evidence pro or con. But have I got more to say in favour of Egypt having been influenced by extraterrestrial and/or unacknowledged terrestrial civilizations? You bet.

 

If you walk past me holding a glass of wine and go into another room and I hear a smash and go in and you are standing there, and the glass is broken on the floor, I will assume you probably dropped it or something similar .... even though I never saw it happen ....  as opposed to imagining a UFO went by the window and shot it out of your hand with a laser beam . 

 

But thats me .... 

 

Funny. But the answers to what we are talking about here are far from being obvious.

[Michael Sternbach]

I am not advocating alien influence for construction since I have no idea as to why aliens would have an interest in such a primitive species as humans.

 

Maybe they are mindful of what we might become. Maybe they also know what we once were.