The origin of mankind

[Marblehead]

Well, to the best of my knowledge it still has not been positively determined how basic chemicals can become biological organisms.

 

There are some pretty good thought but nothing demonstrated yet as far as a complete process.

 

Doesn't really matter all that much whether it originated initially on Mars, a comet, or on Earth.

 

Whatever it was it was a natural process and it is likely that the process has happened in many other places in the universe.

 

But aliens?  No, I can't buy that.  Adam and Eve?  No, I can't buy that either.

[Stosh]

That far back Mh, things really are very speculative, while lipid layers and other microstructures do form spontaneously, it certainly does seem almost surmountable that the first cells could come together. That is probably very rare, and since complex molecules can come in with cometary debris, the origins of our life may come from elsewhere. That being said, the overwhelming genetic similarities of all life found here, suggests that once a winner was estabished, there were no other lines. Though that winner might actually be an amalgam of two or three life form originators,, ex mitochondria vs host cell.vs platelet. That you and I have much in common with a bacterium or banana biochemically is staggering low odds if we arent related directly, somehow. Though I should add that in oddball places ,competitors may lurk still. A creator at the genus or species level, really wouldnt have any reason to try to play a trick on us, and could just make things each uniquely.

I dont know how much of this is lay info, much of it wasnt required reading for me, so if you know it already please excuse my redundancy.

[Stosh]

oh, and I should add that geneticists say that a human male has more in common with a male chimpanzee, than to a human female. Most laymen agree without upset.

[Marblehead]

I always enjoy reading responses to my posts.

That far back Mh, things really are very speculative,

Yeah, that's the thing; it is speculative until a theory has been successfully demonstrated and a repeat of the demonstration has been successfully conducted.  (If it can't be repeated it must remain questionable at best.)

 

And really, if we consider all the things that had to be "just right" for the creation of life on Earth we would likely think that life throughout the universe really isn't all that common.  (And perhaps non-existent.)

[Marblehead]

oh, and I should add that geneticists say that a human male has more in common with a male chimpanzee, than to a human female. Most laymen agree without upset.

 

Well, with a totally open mind I fully accept that conclusion.

 

BTW  Did you know that the South American Jaguar has more in common with the domesticated kitty cat than it has with either the tiger or lion?

[thelerner]

oh, and I should add that geneticists say that a human male has more in common with a male chimpanzee, than to a human female.

A number of my old girl friends would agree, though sometimes its baboon, ape or pig.  .

[Stosh]

I always enjoy reading responses to my posts.

)

If I overlooked a post I apologise, I try to respond to anything addressed directly to me, that was rude of me, sorry.

[Stosh]

Well, with a totally open mind I fully accept that conclusion.

 

BTW  Did you know that the South American Jaguar has more in common with the domesticated kitty cat than it has with either the tiger or lion?

No, but its cool.

[Marblehead]

If I overlooked a post I apologise, I try to respond to anything addressed directly to me, that was rude of me, sorry.

Hey!  You are good.  You haven't been rude.

[Stosh]

That life as it is on earth fits the conditions that have existed on earth, isnt so surprising . Considering life elsewhere, that gets tricky. I dont think we can draw any curve of expectation Whatsoever! based on our own ,single data point.

A second point, on Mars or Elsewhere, would help, so long as the biochemical pattern does NOT fit with earths.

If its like ours ,then one would speculate common origin, not ubiquitousness of principle.

[Junko]

Imagin when our planet and even our solar system or our galaxy didn't exist at all.

[Karl]

Imagin when our planet and even our solar system or our galaxy didn't exist at all.

 

It isn't hatd to do oo (imagine all the people living...), just stare at a patch of empty sky and that's what it would be like.

[Brian]

A patch of empty sky? You need to get out in the country more, my friend.

[Nungali]

Pressed for time this morning .....

 

I think it would be edifying, edificational,, whatever, especially if you know some of the particulars about the folks that made it down under. /... the aquatic ape hypothesis has been around a while ,http://www.primitivism.com/aquatic-ape.htm

 

Interesting read, thanks. I will look more into that when I have more time. 

 

I like it , it seems very reasonable to me, though most of it regards time quite a while before the first got to Aust that doesnt mean it doesnt still hold validity for them. Pre- dream time?

Do we really have to debunk aliens and the early hominids ?or can we just skip to pre-history peoples. Or if you really want to do hominids , What about em?  

 

I guess I am . firstly, looking for a comparison with near  HSS to look at the  essential differentiation ; those qualities which 'separated' us and are distinctly human, as opposed to the idea of a 'bipedal ape'.  The opinion on what they are change over time  ( eg. man used to be the 'tool user' , but now we know other animals will use a tool too ) .  I have my own take on that . 

 

 

Just watched the clip , questions , Bunjalung is Australian aborigine? correct?

 

Yes,  Its a 'mother group' with related 'satellite' groups nearby.

 

what do the call themselves (as opposed to whites) or do they not make that distinction?  

 

Firstly ,   ' Kooris'  (in other places 'Mur-ray' , 'Murry' ,  it varies over locations) ,  next would be a 'tribal' nomination eg, Bundjalung, next a sort of sub-tribal division,  those would be the main ones.   Then their naming does down into relations, clans, totems , etc .   The main definitions I have heard goes ;   ( 'I am ' or 'what is your' )  Nation/tribe  (eg. Bundjalung)  totem, 'God' (or 'ancestor hero' )  , thats usually how they identify themselves. 

 

Is he holding a long functional boomerang?

  

Functional in certain aspects, its a multi-purpose tool , and can also be a weapon, used for music (percussive) , ceremonial. IN that area, it may not have had it usual application   ( its 'classical' use is for more open country, mash land, etc  , not wooded or forest )

 

Did they ever hunt whales as some other coastal peoples did?

 

No, I dont think they ever 'hunted' them traditionally .  But whales did assist them to hunt .   This led to a later connection where they, with white whalers, assisted with whale hunting.

 

http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/wildlife/2012/05/return-of-the-killer-whales-of-eden,-nsw

 

 

Their history doesnt go back before arriving in Austr. ? or is that entirely forgotten? 

 

Most is in a mythological framework and it varies  ( originally over 600 different language groups and many types of Aboriginal; blond with blue eyes and brown skin through to 'indigo black'.  There were 3 main groups classified a while back, but that all seems 'politically incorrect' nowadays).   Some say the first came in over the sea from the north  .... from Venus ...  some say others where here when they got here.  Some moved into new areas when the oceans rose and the coast reformed  (one story is that this happened with the Bundjalung , their original home being flooded in the 'Gulf' . 

 

......and yes it is almost a spooky coincidence that at least some consider whales as ancestors.

 

I dont know much about this, it was the next stage of my teaching ( with Lewis )  but things got disrupted.  The mani 'magical feature here (my place) is very powerful and significant  -  'Old Man Dreaming'   ( face in the mountain)

 

http://www.timaickin.com.au/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=17115&g2_serialNumber=2

 

There is a story about the formation, also there is a geological story; it was formed as an undersea lava dome mountain originally.   One of the last pieces of the story I heard was that before he was a mountain, he was a whale that lived under the sea .   Fascinating that the myth and the geological history ( up to 160 mill ya can be matched ..... as far as I know, there are no marine fossils or anything up there , so ..... ? ? 

 

 

In Africa I was thinking along the shores of lake Chad , Rift valley lakes , Congo river etc. 

 

Vast areas of NE 'Australia' where flooded, it nearly joined with Indonesia , much evidence would be on the sea  floor if it still existed 

 

And I personallly am not asserting that humans lived like mermaids or had gills, or even were marine, no We still cant abide the salt water ( can drink 1/3 brackish) or even soak in water for days , but that doesnt mean one of our ancestral lineages didnt spend the majority of time wading splashing hunting , in and around water , enough so that physically there were heritable differences. 

 

Water is essential in some form ....   here, they talk about 'salt water people' and 'fresh water people' . 

 

 

The hominid line has had various offshoots which part , evolve , and merge back into the larger population, this is a more recent mindset gathering steam of late , and most focus on Neanderthalensis , Denisova , Florensis hybridizing back into Sapiens line. But the greatest genetic diversity actually traces back to Africa suggesting that this was the earliest experimental cradle and meltingpot. It is said that humans were never really a populous species , but if you drop the population too low, and too far apart the species loses its genetic viability , where was everybody ? they were on lakes rivers and beaches where remains do not preserve often. 

 

yes,  preservations , like at Lake Mungo, are because the are went arid and dried out ....  except for situations like 'the Bog Man' was found in. 

 

 

Water features dry up and we walked somewhere else. Like Snail Kites which really just eat snails , when water conditions are poor somewhere they just rotate to other large lakes. The movement isnt aimless wandering , like some people envision for hominids on a savanna. I dont know why anyone thinks this is really what was  going on , it seems funny to me , that humans just kind of strolled around through the territories of lions and stuff.

No , we had a niche , one that was difficult for many creatures to survive in , and it was there out in these difficult spots with challenging and varied food sources that we had any chance of living without getting eaten. 

For instance , we can eat plums, nuts , seaweed , shellfish, chocolate , onions , oregano , tomatoes , oranges , as well as catch , fish ,snakes porcupines, turtles, eggs ,cactus fruit ,,, and a whole host of crap that most animals would find toxic or impossible to harvest all of. ( some- but not all) 

Thats why our capabilities are , yes, all terrain, but no , not on par with gazelles and lions ON equal terms with them. We lived where leopards and hyenas couldnt persist over time, or didnt have the all the advantages they would on dry ground.

 

 

 

Gotta split .....

[Karl]

A patch of empty sky? You need to get out in the country more, my friend.

 

You don't have an 8" dobsonian telescope. There seems to be an awful lot of empty sky. Can't beat a dark sky site mind you just to lay back and stare at the vastness of it.

 

 

[Marblehead]

Imagin when our planet and even our solar system or our galaxy didn't exist at all.

I believe it was a star that went boom and the remains became our solar system.  Science pretty much suggests that it was nothing but a cloud of dust that was caused by external forces to coalesce and form the sun and all other objects in the solar system.

[Marblehead]

Gotta split .....

 

Dual personalities?

[Brian]

You don't have an 8" dobsonian telescope. There seems to be an awful lot of empty sky. Can't beat a dark sky site mind you just to lay back and stare at the vastness of it.

Ah! That does make a big difference.

 

When I was studying astrophysics, this place was new: http://dso.appstate.edu

[Michael Sternbach]

I believe it was a star that went boom and the remains became our solar system.  Science pretty much suggests that it was nothing but a cloud of dust that was caused by external forces to coalesce and form the sun and all other objects in the solar system.

 

Not wrong, but, as usual, science is only describing the outer appearance of the story and missing its essence.

[Stosh]

Thanks , Nungali ,

this is helping to clarify , but I want to check my reading ,, if its not too tedious ,,,,

 

 Bunjalung  or Bundjalung is the tribal affilliation and language group to which Lewis walker belongs ,and it or they center roundabout  New south wales, because earlier traditional habitations are underwater , in the Gulf of Carpentaria where a large shallow lake was?

The Name Lewis walker is taken from an ancestor hero of the man in the clip?  and you know him personally,but didnt learn the whole story about the Mani, you live near,"  Old man dreaming." though this is a place you are associated with, somehow,  but do not own or live at. ( I thought Nungali was a placename near you, or you were associated with, that had something to do with kangaroos. )

Salt water people and freshwater people , refers to , groups living on the coast vs inland? not being some sort of totem affiliation. 

 

Howd you come by the clip? 

Edited March 30, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Dual personalities?

I got one of those.

[Karl]

Ah! That does make a big difference. :)When I was studying astrophysics, this place was new: http://dso.appstate.edu''>http://dso.appstate.edu'>http://dso.appstate.edu

 

Unfortunately Apple no longer allows me to click links which is fairly frustrating. I have to copy down the link by pencil and then take it up to the office PC.....Apple you fucks.

[Marblehead]

Unfortunately Apple no longer allows me to click links which is fairly frustrating. I have to copy down the link by pencil and then take it up to the office PC.....Apple you fucks.

I think it was the FBI that put a virus in Apple's last upgrade.

[Michael Sternbach]

I got one of those.

 

I got two.

[thelerner]

Unfortunately Apple no longer allows me to click links which is fairly frustrating. I have to copy down the link by pencil and then take it up to the office PC.....Apple you fucks.

??  my Mac (mini) does.  Might be more a browser issue then your computer.  I'm using Firefox.