The origin of mankind

[Junko]

Thank you.I didn't write particulary who,I'm not that kind of person but I just got that general impression. That's right. It's more like a big party so we must be "party animal".....American would put it like this.When I was in Japan,I thought horoscope is just superficial.Being foreign country like Switzerland changed the way to look at it completely.Start thinking about it like my own "finger print".

Edited May 12, 2016 by Junko

[Karl]

Thank you.I didn't write particulary who,I'm not that kind of person but I just got that general impression. That's right. It's more like a big party so we must be "party animal".....American would put it like this.When I was in Japan,I thought horoscope is just superficial.Being foreign country like Switzerland changed the way to look at it completely.Start thinking about it like my own "finger print".

A lucky charm has the same effect. We begin to attribute our luck and to make decisions on what we believe to be a lucky object.

 

You are Japanese Junko ?

Edited May 12, 2016 by Karl

[Junko]

Yes,I am female Japanese.

[Marblehead]

How many readers here know about horoscope??

Behaving like as if this thread is all yours.You know sometime I feel this forum is banch of problem people of psychological.If I say you are one of those you wouldn't admit,do you understand that?

Just goes to show that women don't always get what they want.  Not even a Japanese woman living in a French speaking country married with a German.

[Karl]

Yes,I am female Japanese.

 

It's interesting because there is a clear cultural difference between Europe and Japan despite many years of integration. I was on holiday this year and met a Japanese girl who had immigrated to Britain and married a Scottish guy who was on the trip with him. She was the daughter of a farmer. It struck me that she was much more like the Japanese women pre war. Far more reserved and respectful, also more mystically naive ? I'm not sure those are the right descriptions and there was a slight language barrier anyway so we might not have understood each other. Her partner was very outspoken, quite anarchic and a little abrasive. They were good company, but very different characters which made it even more striking.

 

I wanted to ask her more about her life in Japan and the culture/upbringing but didn't get the time.

[Stosh]

How many readers here know about horoscope??

Behaving like as if this thread is all yours.You know sometime I feel this forum is banch of problem people of psychological.If I say you are one of those you wouldn't admit,do you understand that?

We each have our own brand of crazy. Because crazy is a divorce from concrete reality. Yes, some people are really messed up, but the difference is in degree of functionality ..operating in a concrete world .. rather than having a clear line of demarcation. 

Totems , horoscopes etc , reflect who it is we imagine ourselves to be , or want to be , or are... these totems avatars symbols , are a coping mechanism in themselves ,, because frankly the world is a difficult place to be in for such a fragile thing as an intelligent mind. Reminding myself of this makes it much easier to ummm , forgive and accept that others are just not in total sync with my brand. All the folks participating in this thread you started ,IMO, are really nice people , with ideas and emotions and motivations all their own. Allowing that to flourish , is a gift one can bestow ,, or try to hem in.  

[Karl]

We each have our own brand of crazy. Because crazy is a divorce from concrete reality. Yes, some people are really messed up, but the difference is in degree of functionality ..operating in a concrete world .. rather than having a clear line of demarcation.

Totems , horoscopes etc , reflect who it is we imagine ourselves to be , or want to be , or are... these totems avatars symbols , are a coping mechanism in themselves ,, because frankly the world is a difficult place to be in for such a fragile thing as an intelligent mind. Reminding myself of this makes it much easier to ummm , forgive and accept that others are just not in total sync with my brand. All the folks participating in this thread you started ,IMO, are really nice people , with ideas and emotions and motivations all their own. Allowing that to flourish , is a gift one can bestow ,, or try to hem in.

Exactly.

 

The problem is that people want to promote their totems to the wider community but to do so without incurring any argument. Once you put your product up for promotion you cannot expect people to humour you. As I've said previously 'judge and be prepared to be judged'. If you believe a certain thing works for you and that it can help others then there is no harm in that promotion, but the promoter must seperate themselves from the thing they are promoting and observe it objectively once in the public domain. It's like any other kind of good. Just because I criticise Citroen cars does not mean I dislike Mr Citroen, or those that like buying Citroens, but, quite clearly it indicates a different scale of values and not commonality. Thus, argument was invented to thrash out our differences without resorting to clubs. An argument might well get personal, but it isn't going to kill, maim or rob.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Karl

[Junko]

Just goes to show that women don't always get what they want. Not even a Japanese woman living in a French speaking country married with a German.

There is comparatively difference between German and Swiss. Edited May 12, 2016 by Junko

[Nungali]

A lucky charm has the same effect. We begin to attribute our luck and to make decisions on what we believe to be a lucky object.

 

You are Japanese Junko ?

 

Ha!  A lucky charm is nothing  like a natal horoscope Karl.   

 

You might think it is .... but it really isn't .   Nothing like that at all. 

[Nungali]

... 

Totems , horoscopes etc , reflect who it is we imagine ourselves to be , or want to be , or are... these totems avatars symbols , are a coping mechanism in themselves ,, ....

 

Hmmmm .... thats a large overall statement.   In some cases I would agree with that.  Like the XGF I had years back that fancied herself as a bit of an astrologer, during a meeting she pulled out a book and read about all the good things in her 'sign'  and  clucked about how she was just  like that, and then focused on some bad aspects and said she wasnt like that ... the book was wrong about that part.  The others present , who knew her quite well, were incredulous - she exactly had those faults she denied. 

 

This is a pretty clear case of what is going on isnt it ?     There are people like that and they will all systems like that to shore themselves up.   But is this the fault of astrology or the person ? 

 

Then again, I feel modern astrology is pretty crap and false , especially the ' magazine style daily horoscope crap. 

 

But there is another 'more real'  and deeper astrology , and to look in to one's nature using that tool can be very confronting and revealing .... a bit like watching a film of yourself when you didnt know you were being filmed , or hearing a recording of your own voice.  In this case it certainly isnt  an ego boost .

 

But I admit that this type of astrology is rare nowadays,  like most things esoteric , it has degenerated to a pop new agey thing 

[Karl]

Ha!  A lucky charm is nothing  like a natal horoscope Karl.   

 

You might think it is .... but it really isn't .   Nothing like that at all. 

 

What is its purpose ?

 

 

[Stosh]

We probably all have the faults she denied. Im sure I do and dont even know what they were ! 

[Marblehead]

We probably all have the faults she denied. Im sure I do and dont even know what they were ! 

Well, I'm not going to admit to any of mine either.

[Stosh]

I have far too much humility.

[Nungali]

What is its purpose ?

 

For me, its purpose is to help me to get to understand my makeup better , my qualities and weaknesses , my good points and faults and flaws. 

 

Its actually helped me to relate to others better too, and understand people better in my personal interactions.  

[Nungali]

I made a lucky charm once, totally different trip.  Who cares about any of that stuff  ^    I just  want stuff ... and luck !   

 

I decided JUpiter was good fortune and 4 being its number made the charm lucky.  I was determined to win the lotto with it !  I did a ritual with it, 4 times a day over 4 days, worked out the numbers based on multiples of 4 and put in my ticket 

 

 

AND WON ! 

 

 

I won $4.40 .  

 

 

Waste of fuckin time !   I should have gone to work instead and made $800  

 

[Nungali]

We probably all have the faults she denied. Im sure I do and dont even know what they were ! 

 

Well, she would bring guys home from the pub when she drunk and have sex with them . 

 

Do you do that ? 

[Karl]

For me, its purpose is to help me to get to understand my makeup better , my qualities and weaknesses , my good points and faults and flaws. 

 

Its actually helped me to relate to others better too, and understand people better in my personal interactions.  

 

You choose your values and ethics, how are you unaware of what you have chosen ?

[Nungali]

Well, I'm not going to admit to any of mine either.

 

 

Bullshit ! 

 

 

You do that all the time ! 

[Stosh]

What exactly is a Koori natal horoscope?

[Stosh]

Well, she would bring guys home from the pub when she drunk and have sex with them . 

 

Do you do that ? 

Thats not fair, you said it was a FAULT.

[Nungali]

You choose your values and ethics, how are you unaware of what you have chosen ?

 

Hmmm ... the quote button keeps disappearing and I have to refresh page . 

 

 

I am not talking about values and ethics, I am talking about my essential nature, 'style' , 'spirit', 'personality' , inherent skill set' etc. 

 

But since the conversation about this and these qualities got diverted before, I doubt it will be understood but defaulted to the previous position that every thing is learned by experience and adopted or rejected by conscious choice.

 

I refute that. 

 

We 'come here'  with a certain 'program' running, a certain 'skill set' and a set of  'flaws' that can be fixed .... or not, and certain lacks in some areas . 

[Karl]

Hmmm ... the quote button keeps disappearing and I have to refresh page . 

 

 

I am not talking about values and ethics, I am talking about my essential nature, 'style' , 'spirit', 'personality' , inherent skill set' etc. 

 

But since the conversation about this and these qualities got diverted before, I doubt it will be understood but defaulted to the previous position that every thing is learned by experience and adopted or rejected by conscious choice.

 

I refute that. 

 

We 'come here'  with a certain 'program' running, a certain 'skill set' and a set of  'flaws' that can be fixed .... or not, and certain lacks in some areas . 

 

Everything beyond the faculties we are born with just to be precise. We don't learn consciousness, sensation, or perception as those are axioms. We can know pain and pleasure even if we have yet conceptualised those sensations.

 

You will have to explain how a baby is born with this 'program running' which has skills and flaws built in -which as you know would verge on determinism and then you say that these flaws can be fixed which suggests self determination. You see the logical hole you just fell into ? Either there are predetermined flaws, or there aren't. You can't run this half way argument that suggests it is both, because then you run into another kind of logical contradiction A is also not A and that will require another philosophical answer to explain that.

 

So, I have no issue with you refuting my argument, but to posit something to which you have not offered proof and is also contains its own contradictions for which you would also need to prove is a tough call. By all means give it a go. I shall get the popcorn on ;-)

[Stosh]

Flaw is determined by context ,whereas, propensities may be predetermined. Propensities out of favorable context would constitute flaw.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Stosh

[Nungali]

Dont waste the corn Karl, I find I have a seemingly irresolvable communication problem with you,  so debate jut seems to lead to confusion. I notice I am not the only one that seems to feel that with you. 

 

I will try once more to be clear, without you changing my words to terms you can refute:

 

Everything beyond the faculties we are born with just to be precise.

 

yes, thats better.  I had issue with the overall statement, now you have narrowed it down ( this happened last miscommunication too ) .

 

We don't learn consciousness, sensation, or perception as those are axioms.

 

No, I didnt say we did. 

 

We can know pain and pleasure even if we have yet conceptualised those sensations. You will have to explain how a baby is born with this 'program running' which has skills and flaws built in

 

But I didnt say they had skills and flaws built in m  I said quite clearly : "  I am talking about my essential nature, 'style' , 'spirit', 'personality' , inherent skill set' etc.  "  and  " We 'come here'  with a certain 'program' running, a certain 'skill set' and a set of  'flaws' that can be fixed .... or not, and certain lacks in some areas . " 

 

read 'skill set' (as I said before ) 'propensity', flavour, demeanor, abilities, personality etc.   A child doesnt come with built in carpentry skills but one of the little twins I was with, at an early age was clearly more dextrous and interested in such things, he was the 'practical one, the other was the dreamer and poet.     Or, as I have said before, even observe a litter of puppies, I dont mean the runt syndrome - they all have different personalities. 

 

I cant explain the mechanics of it, its been something I have been questioning and a few times posted on .... I have just observed this. 

 

 

-which as you know would verge on determinism and then you say that these flaws can be fixed which suggests self determination.

 

A child can be 'the shy one', without something changing that he may remain that way, it could be considered a flaw by him later (or not ( he may be able to deal with or not or reverse or modify it)  These are pretty obvious observations. . 

 

 

 

You see the logical hole you just fell into ?

 

No, Only of I modify my terms to suit your understanding of them. 

Either there are predetermined flaws, or there aren't.

 

Thats very black and white .   "Laws" ?  I am talking about tendencies; and ;personality, very flexible things

 

 

 

You can't run this half way argument that suggests it is both,

 

But I am not, you see. You are setting your own parameters as mine and then arguing with 'me'. 

 

because then you run into another kind of logical contradiction A is also not A and that will require another philosophical answer to explain that. So, I have no issue with you refuting my argument, but to posit something to which you have not offered proof and is also contains its own contradictions for which you would also need to prove is a tough call. By all means give it a go. I shall get the popcorn on ;-)

 

 

The proof is in the twins, bought up the same, at a very very early age, one could tell they were different types of people ... and the puppy litter.  They are two of the things that led me to think this.   

 

You also might note that I never gave any 'non-materilistic' explanation, all I said is that what the genetic code can convey may be much more complex than we image.

 

There are some very interesting twin studies around;

 

The two guys that lived apart and developed the exact place and size skin cancer at a later age.

 

The two that had diverse health; one excellent one bad , he had a heart problem and the doc knew about the twin thing, he contacted the brother and said get a check up. The bro laughed he was a health nut and his brother didnt work out and ate junk food, but he went for a check up - straight into hospital, emergence heart surgery and saved his life.

 

The little twin girls adopted out  as babies; one bought up in mid west USA by straight Christians, the other by rad parents in Sweden.  They studied them 14 years later, both had the exact same style and movement of flicking their hair out their eyes and other mannerisms   .... mannerisms   mind you ....   and never met . 

 

I am not running some anti materialist agenda here or trying to prove anything, just my observations - the only method of transference I can think of is the genetic code.