The origin of mankind

[Karl]

Im not entirely convinced on this proverb. It has to be force fit to work. The sentiment is fine though, but,, Some use of force may be reasonable and bring peace. Even unforced and prosperous people can .. and will do stupid things. And reason is highly overrated. Though occasionally the trend would be accurate.

 

Force is anti-reason. It is only applied only to the irrational. To begin with force is to dispute reason. It is to say 'you are incapable of rationality so I shall bash in your brains in order that are'.

 

Either you believe man is incapable of rational action, in which case no man is rational and so the world must remain chaos with a ruler who decides what is rational without any connection to reality-because of course 'no one can know it'.

 

Or you believe that reason is mans only guiding light, that he can know reality, that he can act rationally and needs no rulers. As such the world is ordered and the use of force is only used against those who evade rationality by utilising force to gain values they have not earned. This is the law. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

[Marblehead]

So you are not writing seriously.

Exactly, precisely.

 

Sometimes I will say something meant as a joke but don't tell anyone it is a joke.  Further discussion will always show the truth.

[Stosh]

Force is anti-reason. It is only applied only to the irrational. To begin with force is to dispute reason.

No its not exclusively, If I want to get the jump on someone   1   I don't want to tip my hand, 2  no-one really listens to someone elses reason , they prefer their own. 

 

 

It is to say 'you are incapable of rationality so I shall bash in your brains in order that are'.

Well , I didn't say people weren't capable of rationality, I said , that , for real, in the real world , most of the time rationality takes a back seat to folks desires and that which you came up with as most rational , as in ..." well I don't really give a hoot What it is that someone else concludes. " 

Either you believe man is incapable of rational action, in which case no man is rational and so the world must remain chaos with a ruler who decides what is rational without any connection to reality-because of course 'no one can know it'. Or you believe that reason is mans only guiding light, that he can know reality, that he can act rationally and needs no rulers.

That is a false choice if there is an alternative .. and surprisingly enough there is one.. here goes....Reason is a tool to satisfy  desires. Desires need no justification. Soo, rationality cannot reasonably be a guiding light . 

As such the world is ordered and the use of force is only used against those who evade rationality by utilising force to gain values they have not earned. This is the law. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

The eye for an eye thing could be seen as very  rational , or moronic. 

 

There's just an end to the value of rationality, and one gets there really fast. It doesnt suffice on its own. Its Another reason to be displeased with folks behaviors , justification for hostility, or self directed unsatisfactoriness. 

 

It just becomes another mouth to feed. 

[Junko]

One has to be careful about a joke you make. Because jokes can be bad. Good jokes only please.Thank you.

[Stosh]

Exactly, precisely.

 

Sometimes I will say something meant as a joke but don't tell anyone it is a joke.  Further discussion will always show the truth.

True or same here , but I find with my own humor the follow-ups to my own, which I would hope ,would clarify- never actually happen. I'm glad it works better for you. 

[Karl]

No its not exclusively, If I want to get the jump on someone   1   I don't want to tip my hand, 2  no-one really listens to someone elses reason , they prefer their own. 

 

 

 

Well , I didn't say people weren't capable of rationality, I said , that , for real, in the real world , most of the time rationality takes a back seat to folks desires and that which you came up with as most rational , as in ..." well I don't really give a hoot What it is that someone else concludes. " 

 

That is a false choice if there is an alternative .. and surprisingly enough there is one.. here goes....Reason is a tool to satisfy  desires. Desires need no justification. Soo, rationality cannot reasonably be a guiding light . 

 

The eye for an eye thing could be seen as very  rational , or moronic. 

 

There's just an end to the value of rationality, and one gets there really fast. It doesnt suffice on its own. Its Another reason to be displeased with folks behaviors , justification for hostility, or self directed unsatisfactoriness. 

 

It just becomes another mouth to feed. 

 

You forget the first rule 'the initiation of force is anti-reason'. Those behaving irrationally by engaging in the initiation of force answer to the law. It's very simple. Don't start nothing and you won't get nothing. Don't steal other peoples stuff or hurt them.

 

Reason doesn't guarantee someone behaves, it guarantees that those who behave irrationally will be subject to justice.

 

It's not really difficult to grasp, most of us have ethics that we follow which includes not stealing or hurting. Most of us understand what it is to be honest and what it is to be dishonest. Some might blur these boundaries from time to time, but we feel guilty when we do even when we justify it (and we do justify it, we do try and expunge the guilt because we know we are acting badly).

 

Once reason becomes the standard of good, then the initiation of force becomes the standard of evil. Only the use of defence against aggressors is permitted in that situation and so, note that the use of defence produces no value, it only retains the values already earned.

 

None of this is new, I'm sure your parents drilled it into you.

[silent thunder]

I'm always hopeful and yet deeply pessimistic. I don't know if we will survive, I doubt it, but I haven't given up hoping for a better outcome. We have the potential for certain, but we seem to be frittering away our rationality, we appear to have abandoned reason for emotion, values for pleasure and ethics for pragmatism. When mans mind is his only tool for survival and he throws it away whilst immersing himself in anger, guilt and pleasure seeking with no regard to reality, then that doesn't bode well. However, hope springs eternal and grass grows through the thickest concrete and rust crumbles the strongest steel.

 

The two sections in bold echoed these quotes to me.

“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.” ~ Socrates

 

and the latter

“Water is fluid, soft, and yielding. But water will wear away rock, which is rigid and cannot yield. As a rule, whatever is fluid, soft, and yielding will overcome whatever is rigid and hard. This is another paradox: what is soft is strong.”~ Lao Tzu

I don't know Karl... these Tao Bums might be imprinting on you... either way, you're in good company.

[Stosh]

You forget the first rule 'the initiation of force is anti-reason'. Those behaving irrationally by engaging in the initiation of force answer to the law. It's very simple. Don't start nothing and you won't get nothing. Don't steal other peoples stuff or hurt them. Reason doesn't guarantee someone behaves, it guarantees that those who behave irrationally will be subject to justice. It's not really difficult to grasp, most of us have ethics that we follow which includes not stealing or hurting. Most of us understand what it is to be honest and what it is to be dishonest. Some might blur these boundaries from time to time, but we feel guilty when we do even when we justify it (and we do justify it, we do try and expunge the guilt because we know we are acting badly). Once reason becomes the standard of good, then the initiation of force becomes the standard of evil. Only the use of defence against aggressors is permitted in that situation and so, note that the use of defence produces no value, it only retains the values already earned. None of this is new, I'm sure your parents drilled it into you.

My parents drilled a lot of wrong stuff into me. The idea is to get past that. What you are not recognizing is that reason doesn't dictate that someone act nice, it can just as easily tell me to take your belongings or intimidate you etc. Often the 'nicer' behavior is the one that requires the greatest disregard to reason. Reason is not a moral stance, nor is it a personal need unless you embrace it as one, its simply a calculator for the balance of irrationally held beliefs based on needs and preference.

[Junko]

You are the one and only who've got to get to stand and deliver.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Junko

[Karl]

My parents drilled a lot of wrong stuff into me. The idea is to get past that. What you are not recognizing is that reason doesn't dictate that someone act nice, it can just as easily tell me to take your belongings or intimidate you etc. Often the 'nicer' behavior is the one that requires the greatest disregard to reason. Reason is not a moral stance, nor is it a personal need unless you embrace it as one, its simply a calculator for the balance of irrationally held beliefs based on needs and preference.

 

I did not say it necessarily made someone 'act nice'. I said that applying reason meant those who didn't act nice woukd get their back sides kicked.

 

Reason leads to a moral stance, it leads to the moral man, it does so because man has to conform to reality and to do so he requires to choose a philosophy and that philosophy requires he chooses and follows principles in order to hold and gain values.

 

Read O101 because I don't have time to give you the full proof here.

[Marblehead]

One has to be careful about a joke you make. Because jokes can be bad. Good jokes only please.Thank you.

No, I doubt I will ever be more careful about making a joke than I am now.  I'm too old to be changing too many things.  I can't even change a tire anymore.

 

Jokes can be considered bad by people who have little or no sense of humor.

[Stosh]

I did not say it necessarily made someone 'act nice'. I said that applying reason meant those who didn't act nice woukd get their back sides kicked. Reason leads to a moral stance, it leads to the moral man, it does so because man has to conform to reality and to do so he requires to choose a philosophy and that philosophy requires he chooses and follows principles in order to hold and gain values. Read O101 because I don't have time to give you the full proof here.

If 101 leads to this conclusion ,, I dont need to read it to know its wrong. Morality is a conformance model. Pick your religious war. 

Ill give you an example , 

The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world

SO , parents morality leads to all the bad stuff we see. 

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I consider this a very logical progression , but dont presume the first line to be accurate. Its a force fit. 

Someone else , would look at the example of logical progression , dislike the conclusion , and immediately start creating a way out of the unpleasant juxtaposition with their own logical rules, and so logic is a tool of the irrational mind not the commander of it. 

[Nungali]

Yeah! What if I just summoned evil spirits over for Poker Night? Everyone has thier brighter side, even evil spirits. ...... Man, ,,they just get blamed for EVERYthing.

 

" One of them  makes me mad

 

when I drive the car ...  "             

 

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by Nungali

[Nungali]

One has to be careful about a joke you make. Because jokes can be bad. Good jokes only please.Thank you.

 

Yes, one has to be careful when making a joke, especially in company of people with a different social or cultural  background - they may not 'get it' .

 

For example; we have a lot of African refugees living in the small city near here.  Recently I told some of them a joke, whose main theme was a car accident.

 

They just stood there staring at me ... some even looked offended !    One guy goes  " I do not understand this, why is it funny ?"

 

Another :   "  A  Car accident is not something to make a joke about.  people get hurt and injured, there is pain and suffering ."

 

And a third:   "  At least you could have waited until the ambulance left . "

[Nungali]

[Karl]

If 101 leads to this conclusion ,, I dont need to read it to know its wrong. Morality is a conformance model. Pick your religious war. 

Ill give you an example , 

The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world

SO , parents morality leads to all the bad stuff we see. 

.

.

.

.

 

I consider this a very logical progression , but dont presume the first line to be accurate. Its a force fit. 

Someone else , would look at the example of logical progression , dislike the conclusion , and immediately start creating a way out of the unpleasant juxtaposition with their own logical rules, and so logic is a tool of the irrational mind not the commander of it. 

 

It's a self chosen conformance model and not one handed down by an external authority. You are a moral man because you choose to act as a moral man. You must choose your values and the principles that you will use to attain them. These principles and values have to be based in concrete reality.

 

This only applies to someone who has been nurtured by loving parents that have allowed the child to develop in a safe environment. It does not apply to those who are damaged, abused, tortured, or have mental deficiencies. They can of course still choose, but their formative experience of reality has been fatally twisted and distorted and this carries through into adulthood. This makes it far harder, though not impossible.

 

Logic is the tool of reason. Reason is the tool of mans survival, his means to gain value and to achieve happiness. Man is capable of much, much more than you can imagine, but first he must become the hero in his own life.

 

Man asks three questions; Where am I ? How can I know it ? What should I do ?

 

When you can answer those three questions fully to your own satisfaction then you will know a treasure. :-)

[Marblehead]

I hope no one got hurt by the evil spirits that don't exist.

[Junko]

We are old enough to know what we are writing about.

[Trash Filter]

I still haven't found out how human beings got created and since when we have been on this planet.Did we come from outer space? Or did we evolve from animals? Were extraterrestrials or angelic beings involved? Let's start to find out!

 

All of the above plus more.  Would be fascinating to get to the truth of this after filtering trash

[Stosh]

I agee it might be fine to have a code of conduct. But dont consider that morality per se. I suppose it would get callled integrity if one has this. What though ,could be more pervasively so ,than to be genuine in ones actions? The religious describe themselves as the purveyors of morality, or goodness. Do they not? But I ask , is each man of another faith wrong in his morality? ,,,answering myself, I can see the the divides between goodness morality faith. I ask, Is the blaming of evil spirits , or conformance in such considerations honest? I think not.

When people hear the word immoral, they are taught to reflexively think evil cruel bad, but I figure it obvious that ones religion doesnt actually mitigate evil cruel bad behavior..necessarily.

[Stosh]

We are old enough to know what we are writing about.

That being true,, Do you not already know what you believe the origins of humanity are?

[Stosh]

All of the above plus more.  Would be fascinating to get to the truth of this after filtering trash

Same goes for you .. well?

[Karl]

I agee it might be fine to have a code of conduct. But dont consider that morality per se. I suppose it would get callled integrity if one has this. What though ,could be more pervasively so ,than to be genuine in ones actions? The religious describe themselves as the purveyors of morality, or goodness. Do they not? But I ask , is each man of another faith wrong in his morality? ,,,answering myself, I can see the the divides between goodness morality faith. I ask, Is the blaming of evil spirits , or conformance in such considerations honest? I think not.

When people hear the word immoral, they are taught to reflexively think evil cruel bad, but I figure it obvious that ones religion doesnt actually mitigate evil cruel bad behavior..necessarily.

 

You must choose a set of principles, they aren't given to you, they have to be discovered and they have to function to bring the values desired as well as the happiness from gaining those values.

 

Where am I ? How do I know it ? What should I do ?

 

It is not for me, or anyone to say what your principles should be, but I leave you with this thought.

 

Man must think, he can do so irrationally, or rationally, he must choose to force his mind to work and not trust to instinct, God, emotion, or supernaturalism. His first thought, his first choice must be to decide if he should live or die, his next choice is how to accomplish that aim. That means-presuming that he chooses life-that he holds life as his primary value, not just his life, but all human lives. He knows that in order to keep his primary value, that he must be free to choose a philosophy which values his life specifically over all others, it must allow him the freedom to choose and therefore it must not deny others the freedom to choose.

 

This was what the founding fathers knew. They did not arbitrarily pluck principles from the aether. They were high level philosophers. They said life-Liberty-private property-justice and the pursuit of happiness.

 

So I add that he must first deserve it: reason-independence-honesty-integrity-productiveness-justice and pride (in no particular order and not as an exhaustive list).

[Junko]

All we can do is to just imagin and to take care of each other's compassion.It could be that, we will never find out here what we are looking for, but it doesn't matter.....it's all about the art and creativity.It could heal our soul too...

Edited June 9, 2016 by Junko

[Michael Sternbach]

I agee it might be fine to have a code of conduct. But dont consider that morality per se. I suppose it would get callled integrity if one has this. What though ,could be more pervasively so ,than to be genuine in ones actions?

 

Integrity also has something to do with consistency in one's behaviour.