The origin of mankind

[Karl]

Didn't you say that anything we do , ultimately has a self centered reason for doing it? If there is but that single motivation , to do for ourselves as we think best , then we just optimize our welfare. You may consider this as having values Im not sure though that self interest equates to codified values. 

Its true that I never give it a second thought as to how highly I value the existence of a burger against my need to eat. Its only the intrusion of externally imposed values that might make someone consider such, and in the absence of that , you just go ahead and eat it. 

 

We don't always optimise our welfare, addicts know they are harming their bodies-unfortunately people do not know when they are harming their minds, which is a far worse thing that bodily damage. A failing body is preferable to a failing mind.

 

What is this behaviour ? It is self directed, self initiated ? It is evasion. It is the actions of a man who is committing slow suicide. This is a man who does not feel he deserves to hold life as a value, but is incapable of the direct act needed to end his life. Instead he takes succour and a certain twisted kind of pleasure out of his behaviour. He does not care about the damage he does to his friends and family, his concern is to act nihilisticly, to do whatever it takes to avoid reason.

[Karl]

We can skip value, next thing, do I deserve to live? Never thought to ask. But considering now I say no, since there is no deserving. Thats an imagined construct which one can adopt, but deserving , not being a real thing to have, well I just cant have any. Sure Id use the idea in my own defense vs other people,but the penguin doesnt care about its deserving or the deserving of the bugs it eats..its a non thing we use as a rule to guide behavior.Its a system of allocation.

 

I was careful to avoid the use of the more important term which is of course justice. Animals cannot conceive of such a thing, but it is implicit in the human condition. How many times do you hear it said "I, they, he, her, they deserved better, less, didn't deserve". We must judge and we must judge 'values'. What is a greater and lesser value, which values we will reject, which we will keep, which we desire. How do you make those judgements ? Which datum do you use to as the measure ?

 

The primary value of your own life. If you judge your life as 'worthless', then you will squander it. This is precisely how people act. They find the effort of continuing to maintain reason and to hold/earn values, can become too much effort judged against the value they place on their own lives. They simply give up, they stop trying and drift.

 

People say these things to themselves. They say I deserved that promotion, job, car, wife, house, or that they felt guilty that they got things. We judge ourselves and others all the time. We judge values against each other. We want that chocolate bar, but we know we will get fat. We know we should take some excersise but we can rest today and work out twice tomorrow. We decide if it's a Pizza or a Pasta, to buy the large or small bottle of sauce.

 

[Karl]

The sage will naturally act with integrity, due to their own integration. There will be no duality, no gap between what they wish to do and what they need to do. That's because they are one with the Dao.

Mind you, I'm talking about an ideal state. Another word for it is wu wei.

 

:-) The rational man, the moral man, has no self doubt. He uses his mind properly, is independent in action, is honest with himself and in all his dealings, has totally integrity-he does not evade, he is productive, he judges and is prepared to be judged, he takes pride in holding to his virtues.

 

This is the way of the hero.

[Stosh]

We don't always optimise our welfare, addicts know they are harming their bodies-unfortunately people do not know when they are harming their minds, which is a far worse thing that bodily damage. A failing body is preferable to a failing mind. What is this behaviour ? It is self directed, self initiated ? It is evasion. It is the actions of a man who is committing slow suicide. This is a man who does not feel he deserves to hold life as a value, but is incapable of the direct act needed to end his life. Instead he takes succour and a certain twisted kind of pleasure out of his behaviour. He does not care about the damage he does to his friends and family, his concern is to act nihilisticly, to do whatever it takes to avoid reason.

RE: you said...

"You might well sacrifice yourself, but it is never voluntarily 'for others' unless you have abdicated you thinking to another authority. Nothing is ever voluntarily done for others, it just seems that way. Every action is a selfishly motivated action."

SO I said ...

Didn't you say that anything we do , ultimately has a self centered reason for doing it? If there is but that single motivation , to do for ourselves as we think best , then we just optimize our welfare

Now you say..

We don't always optimise our welfare,

 Cant we just say that we attempt to optimize our welfare, since we dont appear to be really at odds on this? 

Edited June 11, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

I was careful to avoid the use of the more important term which is of course justice. Animals cannot conceive of such a thing, but it is implicit in the human condition. How many times do you hear it said "I, they, he, her, they deserved better, less, didn't deserve". We must judge and we must judge 'values'. What is a greater and lesser value, which values we will reject, which we will keep, which we desire. How do you make those judgements ? Which datum do you use to as the measure ? The primary value of your own life. If you judge your life as 'worthless', then you will squander it. This is precisely how people act. They find the effort of continuing to maintain reason and to hold/earn values, can become too much effort judged against the value they place on their own lives. They simply give up, they stop trying and drift. People say these things to themselves. They say I deserved that promotion, job, car, wife, house, or that they felt guilty that they got things. We judge ourselves and others all the time. We judge values against each other. We want that chocolate bar, but we know we will get fat. We know we should take some excersise but we can rest today and work out twice tomorrow. We decide if it's a Pizza or a Pasta, to buy the large or small bottle of sauce.

I guess this is where we just disagree, Just because we use these conventional ideas , like that there is a such thing as justice , doesnt mean that any such thing actually exists. 

Terry Pratchett > Quotes > Quotable Quote

All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasiesto make life bearable."

 

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

 

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

 

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

 

"So we can believe the big ones?"

 

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

 

"They're not the same at all!"

 

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOMERIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

 

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

 

MY POINT EXACTLY.”

― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

[Stosh]

:-) The rational man, the moral man, has no self doubt. He uses his mind properly, is independent in action, is honest with himself and in all his dealings, has totally integrity-he does not evade, he is productive, he judges and is prepared to be judged, he takes pride in holding to his virtues. This is the way of the hero.

IMO this is Wishful thinking , or a psyche attempt to bring such about, by suggestion alone , or maybe a bait , so that one follows some professed sage.  

 

..

Yes you too can play tennis ,swim, have unlimited sex ,and always be happy all day long , for just $19.99, with  IMPERFECTION AWAY spray. Just one easy application and that's all there is to it ! 

[Karl]

IMO this is Wishful thinking , or a psyche attempt to bring such about, by suggestion alone , or maybe a bait , so that one follows some professed sage.  

 

..

Yes you too can play tennis ,swim, have unlimited sex ,and always be happy all day long , for just $19.99, with  IMPERFECTION AWAY spray. Just one easy application and that's all there is to it ! 

 

There is only one sage and that's the self. You can choose to be the hero in your own life, or you can spend the time evading what you know to be true. You can refuse to use your mind, you can lie to yourself, justify your actions, or any other multitude of things people do, but you cannot escape the negative feelings and pressures that arise from those action. No need to read a book or seek out a guru to know that this is true, a few minutes of introspection reveals the fragility of an ego built on weak foundations. If you need the respect and admiration of others to bolster your weak ego, if you need to drink, take drugs or retreat into addictions to mask the pain, then you know it.

 

The ignorant are ignorant by choice, the evaders are evading by choice. These things can be changed, you can choose to know, to let the light in and banish that darkness and misery ignorance brings.

[Karl]

RE: you said...

"You might well sacrifice yourself, but it is never voluntarily 'for others' unless you have abdicated you thinking to another authority. Nothing is ever voluntarily done for others, it just seems that way. Every action is a selfishly motivated action."

SO I said ...

Didn't you say that anything we do , ultimately has a self centered reason for doing it? If there is but that single motivation , to do for ourselves as we think best , then we just optimize our welfare

Now you say..

We don't always optimise our welfare,

 Cant we just say that we attempt to optimize our welfare, since we dont appear to be really at odds on this? 

 

We evade what we should do. This is the cowards way. We seek ways to shut up the internal accuser and then to justify the violence we have perpetrated against our own bodies and minds. This is equally a selfish act, but it is an introverted kind of violence. It is self repression and self censorship of who we really are. People in this state have given up. Suicide is a selfish escapade as is saving your kids and wife. We make that decision that we value something more than our lives. In my case it is freedom. I would rather be dead that a prisoner-even of and particularly of my own mind.

[Karl]

I guess this is where we just disagree, Just because we use these conventional ideas , like that there is a such thing as justice , doesnt mean that any such thing actually exists. 

 

Terry Pratchett > Quotes > Quotable Quote

 

 

 

All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasiesto make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOMERIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY.”

― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

 

No I'm not. I'm showing you how you are forced into judging and that justice is the corollary of judgement. There is no way to avoid it. I'm not implying that justice is necessarily laws and courts, only that this is where justice ultimately springs from. That is why we have judges and evidence. These are the same things that humans engage in every second of our lives.

[Stosh]

There is only one sage and that's the self. You can choose to be the hero in your own life, or you can spend the time evading what you know to be true. You can refuse to use your mind, you can lie to yourself, justify your actions, or any other multitude of things people do, but you cannot escape the negative feelings and pressures that arise from those action. No need to read a book or seek out a guru to know that this is true, a few minutes of introspection reveals the fragility of an ego built on weak foundations. If you need the respect and admiration of others to bolster your weak ego, if you need to drink, take drugs or retreat into addictions to mask the pain, then you know it.

 

The ignorant are ignorant by choice, the evaders are evading by choice. These things can be changed, you can choose to know, to let the light in and banish that darkness and misery ignorance brings.

Then my sage is a fool.

[Stosh]

No I'm not. I'm showing you how you are forced into judging and that justice is the corollary of judgement. There is no way to avoid it. I'm not implying that justice is necessarily laws and courts, only that this is where justice ultimately springs from. That is why we have judges and evidence. These are the same things that humans engage in every second of our lives.

The point , is that its not objectively real. Knowing this mitigates a sense of injustice, or wrongness or the need to rail about badness or ones shortcomings. It doesnt remove the possibility to choose to be better ,or be just, choose your lifes roles, values ,or to pat yourself on the back... that would be your subjective motivations at play.

[Karl]

The point , is that its not objectively real. Knowing this mitigates a sense of injustice, or wrongness or the need to rail about badness or ones shortcomings. It doesnt remove the possibility to choose to be better ,or be just, choose your lifes roles, values ,or to pat yourself on the back... that would be your subjective motivations at play.

It is objectively real. You make the wrong judgement on your desert Island and reality will punish that decision to the point of death. Justice does not say that you will make the right decisions, it means you do not doubt the decisions and do not regret the results. You know you did your very best without any sense of remorse. Even if you fail, your mind is free from the additional mental suffering which is the result of evasion and chosen ignorance.

 

 

 

 

Reality IS objectively real. The result of your choices are objectively real. Your emotions are objectively real. There is no escape from yourself and that is also objective reality. You can make stories up if you wish, but you can't cover up the emotional response to objective reality without a great deal of additional energy and that begins a cycle of ever more effort to paper over a network of ever widening emotional cracks.

 

Moral man knows this. He realises that it's easier to face reality and to act morally because it leaves him free to correct his errors of judgement. The evader is like a man in quicksand, the harder he struggles, the deeper he sinks. The moral evader is his own prison warden, he creates his own mental paralysis through trying to keep all the plates spinning and becomes useless to himself.

 

This isn't new of course, religious moralists have preached a set of ethical codes and we see that in the Ten Commandments. However where objectivism differers is that it does not rely on an external authority for moral guidance. Instead, every man is capable of choosing his own moral code based on the exact same objective reality that everybody else has. It makes him able to act instantaneously because the philosophy leaves no room for self doubt. The moral man knows the values he desires are the right values and he wastes no time, or mental effort in going after them. The result is that the values he obtains bring him happiness. They do not produce guilt or remorse, because they are aligned with reality.

 

The thing about objectivism is that it stops the nagging mind fretting over itself and grows wings of confidence and instant action. Isn't that what was always the aim of many forms of spiritualism "stillness in action" "Do no harm" ? This aims are internal as well as external. So, there is no mind/body dichotomy and everything is aligned. It is far simpler that spiritual practices because it utilises what we already have-our minds. Instead of trying to banish thought as if it is the enemy, instead we realise that we must use our minds more properly. We must stop filling them with junk and begin to straighten ourselves out. That way we can begin to unfold our crumpled up consciousness and allow it to expand, to become a far more effective tool for ourselves and everybody else who takes that same course. It builds defence against the irrational and allows the use of force ONLY when it is required and takes no pleasure or value from that action.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Karl

[Stosh]

Everything that exists is real . I agee, that if I hallucinate bats flying round my head, my physical swatting is objectively real. ... they arent. Same is true for remorse or injustice ,or all the rest that goes on in a human head. Including chemically induced euphoria, or clinical depression. The experience of being human , exists. But occasionally we change our mind, look at things a better way, emphasize the good and forgive the bad. No one else knows My personal mind but me. Someone else must guess or infer.. That is what subjective describes. I didnt call our subject of the moment , subjectively fake, Did I ? (rhet)

Death in the hogfather quote, as I read it , has a broader ,'one step removed' birds eye view. He is not wrapped up in living the human experience _which can be seen as a special gift, or may suck ( true either way you read my meaning,, that deaths experience sucks relatively, or a humans experience sucks)

The difference of describing reality as having subjective and objective truths ,rather than only objective truths, is that it fits the events which not everyone must deal with ,like my sorrow at my loss, my enthusiasm for my hobbies, his love for his wife, your faith in your justice.

And far from being INSIGNIFICANT, these subjective thingies tend to be the most SUPREMELY important aspects of our lives.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

C'mon Karl, You MUST accept my personal take on subjectivity. ...

[Karl]

Everything that exists is real . I agee, that if I hallucinate bats flying round my head, my physical swatting is objectively real. ... they arent. Same is true for remorse or injustice ,or all the rest that goes on in a human head. Including chemically induced euphoria, or clinical depression. The experience of being human , exists. But occasionally we change our mind, look at things a better way, emphasize the good and forgive the bad. No one else knows My personal mind but me. Someone else must guess or infer.. That is what subjective describes. I didnt call our subject of the moment , subjectively fake, Did I ? (rhet)

Death in the hogfather quote, as I read it , has a broader ,'one step removed' birds eye view. He is not wrapped up in living the human experience _which can be seen as a special gift, or may suck ( true either way you read my meaning,, that deaths experience sucks relatively, or a humans experience sucks)

The difference of describing reality as having subjective and objective truths ,rather than only objective truths, is that it fits the events which not everyone must deal with ,like my sorrow at my loss, my enthusiasm for my hobbies, his love for his wife, your faith in your justice.

And far from being INSIGNIFICANT, these subjective thingies tend to be the most SUPREMELY important aspects of our lives.

I've no sense of your argument Stosh. Values are chosen-if you wish-subjectively (I would argue that they are only subjective when compared to others chosen values, but that's another argument).

 

However-whatever your values-reality determines the validity of your choice. Someone may choose to cram their veins with heroin and to steal from their friends and family to maintain their habit. Heroin isn't necessary for the maintenance of life and it most definitely causes damage to both the body and mind. The world is not full of deliriously happy drug addicts is it ? They take drugs because they feel there is no alternative and their life often turns into a nightmare of spiralling collapse and debauchery.

 

The addict has chosen the value of drug addiction and damage because his own life has a lower value. He wishes to numb his mind, to feel blissful and without concern for the realities of life. More than likely he will destroy his life completely in the process. The addict knows exactly what he is doing, but he evades the direct acceptance of the damage he is doing in return for oblivion.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Karl

[Junko]

Do you have children? Karl?!

Edited June 12, 2016 by Junko

[Michael Sternbach]

Do you have children? Karl?!

 

In other words, are there little Karls gearing up to spread the gospel of Objectivism?

[silent thunder]

A household of contrarians?  How many conversations can be had, without anyone ever agreeing to anything brought up I wonder?

[Karl]

Do you have children? Karl?!

 

No.

[Karl]

In other words, are there little Karls gearing up to spread the gospel of Objectivism?

 

I know you meant it in a kind of humorous way, but the thing with objectivism isn't any kind of gospel. It isn't saying that you obey some authority, it just says to use your mind and stop evading or acting ignorantly. It really isn't a big deal. You don't have to perform practices, read texts, go to church, whisper mantras, anoint yourself with oils any any other kind of ritual. Just act as a full human being.

[Junko]

No.

Thank you for the answer. I have not either...you know this world which we live in is very much based on this'children'.People take this so seriously as soon as new born child is born anywhere,some sort of cord immediately changes.

[Karl]

Thank you for the answer. I have not either...you know this world which we live in is very much based on this'children'.People take this so seriously as soon as new born child is born anywhere,some sort of cord immediately changes.

 

Righteo, but what has that got to do with the price of fish ? :-)

[Junko]

Nothing to do with it...but there is a difference people who have children to people have not...

[Michael Sternbach]

Righteo, but what has that got to do with the price of fish ? :-)

 

Everything is interconnected (especially in Junko's brain, but by no means limited to that).

[Stosh]

I've no sense of your argument Stosh. Values are chosen-if you wish-subjectively (I would argue that they are only subjective when compared to others chosen values, but that's another argument).

However-whatever your values-reality determines the validity of your choice.

 

. The addict knows exactly what he is doing, but he evades the direct acceptance of the damage he is doing in return for oblivion.

Theres no such thing as validity either Karl. One lives one dies. They make the choice and must live with the consequence. You think its a self defeating choice, so do I, but that doesnt make the rightness or wrongness of the choice a physical thing. Someone could feel living conventionally is bad, riding motorcyles is bad or overeating is bad, playing cards with loose women .. and so forth. One makes choices ,the eventualities you predict, may or not come about. And even if they did 100% of the time! the absolute rightness of your choices is all in ones head.

The guy didnt climb mt everest to die , he went up to live,, his call ,his life. Youre thinking that because you value long life, every one else must , and so its some sort of validating factor for your subjective view. Its not. Your views are for you. your judgements are yours to make, even about someone else... but that doest make them objectively real. Its like saying so and so is beautiful, someone else disagrees, and you tell them they are objectively WRONG. And the bogusness of that still holds true even if you do a statistal regression on the publics views which seems to agree with your view.

The beauty of the stars is not in space, its in your head.