The origin of mankind

[Junko]

Where does the idea come from seeing is believing?

[Marblehead]

Where does the idea come from seeing is believing?

A blind man once said that.

[Junko]

Which blind person are you talking about?

[Karl]

Theres no such thing as validity either Karl. One lives one dies. They make the choice and must live with the consequence. You think its a self defeating choice, so do I, but that doesnt make the rightness or wrongness of the choice a physical thing. Someone could feel living conventionally is bad, riding motorcyles is bad or overeating is bad, playing cards with loose women .. and so forth. One makes choices ,the eventualities you predict, may or not come about. And even if they did 100% of the time! the absolute rightness of your choices is all in ones head.

The guy didnt climb mt everest to die , he went up to live,, his call ,his life. Youre thinking that because you value long life, every one else must , and so its some sort of validating factor for your subjective view. Its not. Your views are for you. your judgements are yours to make, even about someone else... but that doest make them objectively real. Its like saying so and so is beautiful, someone else disagrees, and you tell them they are objectively WRONG. And the bogusness of that still holds true even if you do a statistal regression on the publics views which seems to agree with your view.

The beauty of the stars is not in space, its in your head.

I said nothing of the sort. It is nothing to do with what I value in comparison with what others value. I'm not making an absolutist statement. I'm saying that you know the risks that you take. I don't ride a motorcycle because I think I will live a long life, I do it because it has a certain value to me and though it has a high risk factor I'm aware of it and accept it. I might equally take a risk to climb a tree to get apples, or to set out to sea to get fish.

 

However reality is reality. Gravity, height, Sea, storm, tyre grip, other motorists are all examples of that objective reality. We all make the judgement call if we are thinking and not evading. However, an alcoholic, a drug user, a gambler, a sex addict is not acting that way. They are attempting not to think, to blot out the mind and bury it in distracting activities. This is hedonistic activity. They obtain pleasure before value, pleasure at any cost.

 

I ride my motorcycle because I enjoy the skill that is required to handle it. I have learned to master it like an instrument, a paint brush, a branch of mathematics. The pleasure comes from the attainment of those values knowing reality can kill me. I do not simply chug down a bottle of whisky in order to remain in mindless oblivion, or get a nose full of cocaine. There is no skill in those activities. The value obtained is that of the pleasure of not being present. Climbing Everest is a mind present challenge of skill, endurance and fitness, it's a balance between reality and action.

 

However, the drug addict is an extreme version of evasion. Evasion occurs in smaller, less obvious places. Petty theft would be one of those instances. People justify helping themselves to something from their employers business and justify the theft. What they are saying is that theft is justifiable and therefore any kind of theft is fine, but they know that it isn't. If the employer turned up on their doorstep to search the house, they would be horrified. They don't tell the employer that they are entitled to the goods, they begin a cycle of lies and deceit in order for the employer not to discover the theft. However, even if they get away with, trust is lost and they feel eyes watching them and have to get rid of the stolen goods. Maybe the employer sacks them and now they have to find another job knowing full well that any other employer might find out about the theft.

 

We can look at aesthetics next :-) that certain arrangements and proportions are also objective realities which appeal/or repel the human mind. Even in art there is objective reality at work.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Karl

[Karl]

Where does the idea come from seeing is believing?

 

Good point. Seeing is seeing ; believing is believing.

 

They aren't the same thing.

 

It is an example of a philosophical idea that is integrated into someone's mind without discrimination and a great example of the logical fallacy of cliche thinking.

 

It's opposite might be helpful : all that glitters is not gold :-)

 

[Marblehead]

Which blind person are you talking about?

They all say the same thing.

 

"Look at the red flower." 

 

This means nothing to a blind man.

 

Funny memory:

 

My last job before retiring was driving a taxi.  One customer I picked up a couple times was a blind lady.  Very attractive. 

 

One morning I picked her up for a fairly long ride and we got into a conversation.  We were talking and I said something.  She turned her head as if to look at me.

 

I said, "Stop looking at me like that."

 

She replied, "Yeah, you saw me trying, didn't you?"

[Stosh]

Karl ,, mainly , anyone can take a poke at this stuff if they feel inclined...

 

 

Its a very simple thing to consider all those behaviors as evasion. Like riding the motorcycle is an evasion from dealing with your true self , sitting silent and at peace. .

Or one could say that all those activities represent an assertive search for a sort of richness, the best richness that person knows they can find. 

Or one could just say all life's activities revolve around dissatisfaction or suffering.... hmm wait ,, someone already said that. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Stosh

[silent thunder]

They all say the same thing.

 

"Look at the red flower." 

 

This means nothing to a blind man.

 

Funny memory:

 

My last job before retiring was driving a taxi.  One customer I picked up a couple times was a blind lady.  Very attractive. 

 

One morning I picked her up for a fairly long ride and we got into a conversation.  We were talking and I said something.  She turned her head as if to look at me.

 

I said, "Stop looking at me like that."

 

She replied, "Yeah, you saw me trying, didn't you?"

That is an outstanding moment... thanks for sharing!  Love it.

[Junko]

All in all, we all have our brain.....so when a blind person,if he or she cloud hear ,they would think what is red color? I mean we all useing our brains.

[Karl]

Karl ,, mainly , anyone can take a poke at this stuff if they feel inclined...

 

 

Its a very simple thing to consider all those behaviors as evasion. Like riding the motorcycle is an evasion from dealing with your true self , sitting silent and at peace. .

Or one could say that all those activities represent an assertive search for a sort of richness, the best richness that person knows they can find. 

Or one could just say all life's activities revolve around dissatisfaction or suffering.... hmm wait ,, someone already said that. 

 

I'm intimately in contact with my self when motorcycling. Every part of my senses and cognitive capacity are directed towards the goal of riding well. It is a thing of fully comitted conscious awareness with full responsibility of purpose. The pleasure comes from achieving the goal of safe, fast, skilled riding. It is the same for the hunter, or the warrior. To be aware, to understand, to know, to dispel all ignorance and to cast off all evasion. To be nakedly in the moment of raw self control.

 

What you are doing right now is evading. You know this is true, but you try and justify the reason why it isn't. I say that the greatest reward is to be the hero in your own life, beholden to no one, throwing off ignorance and facing life full square. At the end you can say that you did it your way.

[Marblehead]

All in all, we all have our brain.....so when a blind person,if he or she cloud hear ,they would think what is red color? I mean we all useing our brains.

Yes, if we had sight and lost it we could still mentally imagine these things.  But if we were born blind then we have nothing in our brain that we could relate something said to.

 

Granted, we could feel the flower, and we could smell it but that really wouldn't give the same sensation as a person with sight would get.  But, of course, we would have no way to relate the color "red" with anything in our brain.

[Junko]

There is individual difference in human.All our brains are NOT same...!

[Stosh]

Yes, if we had sight and lost it we could still mentally imagine these things.  But if we were born blind then we have nothing in our brain that we could relate something said to.

 

Granted, we could feel the flower, and we could smell it but that really wouldn't give the same sensation as a person with sight would get.  But, of course, we would have no way to relate the color "red" with anything in our brain.

Im just wondering , since Ive seen this said many times, ,, even argued myself I imagine .. but frankly Ive never heard what a blind from birth person says on the issue. I dont know anyone blind from birth. 

[Stosh]

I'm intimately in contact with my self when motorcycling. Every part of my senses and cognitive capacity are directed towards the goal of riding well. It is a thing of fully comitted conscious awareness with full responsibility of purpose. The pleasure comes from achieving the goal of safe, fast, skilled riding. It is the same for the hunter, or the warrior. To be aware, to understand, to know, to dispel all ignorance and to cast off all evasion. To be nakedly in the moment of raw self control. What you are doing right now is evading. You know this is true, but you try and justify the reason why it isn't. I say that the greatest reward is to be the hero in your own life, beholden to no one, throwing off ignorance and facing life full square. At the end you can say that you did it your way.

Sorry for evading, I just don't know what you think I'm evading though. All I did was equate those acts that you endorse with ones you wouldn't, to show that its opinion you are seeming to contend has some factual-ness  beyond that. 

It just makes no difference whether some of the rules of beauty apply across different cultures. Each person has to conclude for themselves if painting X has beauty or not. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Stosh

[Karl]

Sorry for evading, I just don't know what you think I'm evading though. All I did was equate those acts that you endorse with ones you wouldn't, to show that its opinion you are seeming to contend has some factual-ness  beyond that. 

It just makes no difference whether some of the rules of beauty apply across different cultures. Each person has to conclude for themselves if painting X has beauty or not. 

 

Why apologise ? I don't 'endorse', if someone wants to evade that's their choice.

 

We all value symmetry and certain forms and proportions-the golden ration/thirds. Artists and designers have always understood that. A beautiful woman is beautiful in any culture. Abstract art is something different. The artist attempts to portray themselves in a concrete form. If the viewer feels a connection, then they will enjoy the work, others will be repelled.

[Marblehead]

There is individual difference in human.All our brains are NOT same...!

I have not found one single woman's brain that was even close to being similar to mine.

[Marblehead]

Im just wondering , since Ive seen this said many times, ,, even argued myself I imagine .. but frankly Ive never heard what a blind from birth person says on the issue. I dont know anyone blind from birth. 

I can't say I do either although I may have known one or two.

 

But I can't speak to your statement as I have no recall of anything that would speak to that.

[Nungali]

Thank you for the answer. I have not either...you know this world which we live in is very much based on this'children'.People take this so seriously as soon as new born child is born anywhere,some sort of cord immediately changes.

 

But Junko ,  children are the most important thing in the world ! 

 

The issue is, adults keep forgetting that.  But children are always constantly reminding us ... in new and innovative ways, to bring the attention back to them .     

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

Nothing to do with it...but there is a difference people who have children to people have not...

 

yes there is .... as soon as I read that question Junko ... straight away , I thought  - No way !  Karl would not have any children .

[Nungali]

Everything is interconnected (especially in Junko's brain, but by no means limited to that).

 

 

 

" Now, therefore, I am known to ye by my name Nuit, and to him by a secret name which I will give him when at last he knoweth me. Since I am Infinite Space, and the Infinite Stars thereof, do ye also thus. Bind nothing! Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt. "

[Stosh]

Why apologise ? I don't 'endorse', if someone wants to evade that's their choice. We all value symmetry and certain forms and proportions-the golden ration/thirds. Artists and designers have always understood that. A beautiful woman is beautiful in any culture. Abstract art is something different. The artist attempts to portray themselves in a concrete form. If the viewer feels a connection, then they will enjoy the work, others will be repelled.

'Abstract art' is a misnomer. ( Im repelled)

[Nungali]

Junko ; " Where does the idea come from seeing is believing?"

 

Its a good idea .    But I don't take it to mean ;  you should believe in all you see  (as Karl seems to ) .

 

The way I take it is  ;   " Show me! "

 

I get sick of all the bullshit promises and claims ;  "I will do this ... I will do that - I promise this ".......  etc .

 

Bullshit !  Show me  and I will believe it.

 

Cheques in the mail ..... bullshit !  I will believe it when I see it in my hand  .....  actually, when the bank clears the check .

 

and more actually, I won't believe it until the checks cashed, I have spent it  and am recovering from the hangover ...

 

Then ​ I will believe it  !

[Nungali]

I'm intimately in contact with my self when motorcycling. Every part of my senses and cognitive capacity are directed towards the goal of riding well. It is a thing of fully comitted conscious awareness with full responsibility of purpose. The pleasure comes from achieving the goal of safe, fast, skilled riding. It is the same for the hunter, or the warrior. To be aware, to understand, to know, to dispel all ignorance and to cast off all evasion. To be nakedly in the moment of raw self control. What you are doing right now is evading. You know this is true, but you try and justify the reason why it isn't. I say that the greatest reward is to be the hero in your own life, beholden to no one, throwing off ignorance and facing life full square. At the end you can say that you did it your way.

 

yes , I agree, it is like that at times , but have you ever felt more ?

 

When you ride REALLY good !   Are you SO conscious of the acts .... is not supreme performance somewhat 'automatic' after a time ?  I used to get that riding .  Even racing ( on foot )  over the rocks along the shore line - I used to run along them every morning - uneven , some slippery, at all different angles and levels and some leaps over water required. After a while I got so used to it ( the practice, not the route as it changed)  I could do it without conscious observation.  A friend came once and was totally flummoxed ; "how can you do that ? You are going too fast and aren't even looking where you are going ?"

 

'Automatic'   ... well, plus I was born in the year of the goat    

 

Same with normal  long   distance / cross country running , I used to compete in that when young.  I would be running, leaping over logs, jumping, etc, after a while, it would be like sitting in my head and looking out the windows of my eyes, just watching it all go by, with no perceived conscious effort.

 

And with martial arts, when I am in the zone, or younger and in competition .

 

get what I mean ?  .... or am I trippin'  ? 

 

Hmmmm .... might be time to quote my favourite controversial person ;

 

 

"

Consciousness is a symptom of disease.

All that moves well moves without will.

All skillfulness, all strain, all intention is contrary to ease.

Practise a thousand times, and it becomes difficult; a thousand thousand, and it becomes easy; a thousand thousand times a thousand thousand, and it is no longer Thou that doeth it, but It that doeth itself through thee. Not until then is that which is done well done.

Thus spoke FRATER PERDURABO as he leapt from rock to rock of the moraine without ever casting his eyes upon the ground.

 

.....  

Bodily functions are parts of the machine; silent, unless in dis-ease.

But mind, never at ease, creaketh "I".

This I persisteth not, posteth not through generations, changeth momently, finally is dead.

Therefore is man only himself when lost to himself in The Charioting."

[Marblehead]

'Abstract art' is a misnomer. ( Im repelled)

Then for you it would be called "Repelling Art".

[Karl]

Its a good idea .    But I don't take it to mean ;  you should believe in all you see  (as Karl seems to ) .

 

The way I take it is  ;   " Show me! "

 

I get sick of all the bullshit promises and claims ;  "I will do this ... I will do that - I promise this ".......  etc .

 

Bullshit !  Show me  and I will believe it.

 

Cheques in the mail ..... bullshit !  I will believe it when I see it in my hand  .....  actually, when the bank clears the check .

 

and more actually, I won't believe it until the checks cashed, I have spent it  and am recovering from the hangover ...

 

Then ​ I will believe it  !

 

I specifically said that you should believe all you see. What you see is what you see and belief has nothing to do with it. It's our conceptual capacity that is engaged after perception.