The origin of mankind

[thelerner]

Without force reason flourishes. With reason peace is found. From peace comes prosperity.

While generally optimistic, I don't see lines in human history as much as curves...  Pendulum swings.

 

Prosperity plants the seeds of future recession.   Long enough peace devolves into potential for war.   Those who profess the highest level of reason can forget basic humanity.

 

Ideas, morals and tolerance swing from side to side.  Humanity may be getting more tolerant but our technology is getting more destructive. 

[Karl]

yes , I agree, it is like that at times , but have you ever felt more ?

 

When you ride REALLY good !   Are you SO conscious of the acts .... is not supreme performance somewhat 'automatic' after a time ?  I used to get that riding .  Even racing ( on foot )  over the rocks along the shore line - I used to run along them every morning - uneven , some slippery, at all different angles and levels and some leaps over water required. After a while I got so used to it ( the practice, not the route as it changed)  I could do it without conscious observation.  A friend came once and was totally flummoxed ; "how can you do that ? You are going too fast and aren't even looking where you are going ?"

 

'Automatic'   ... well, plus I was born in the year of the goat    

 

Same with normal  long   distance / cross country running , I used to compete in that when young.  I would be running, leaping over logs, jumping, etc, after a while, it would be like sitting in my head and looking out the windows of my eyes, just watching it all go by, with no perceived conscious effort.

 

And with martial arts, when I am in the zone, or younger and in competition .

 

get what I mean ?  .... or am I trippin'  ? 

 

Hmmmm .... might be time to quote my favourite controversial person ;

 

 

"

Consciousness is a symptom of disease.

All that moves well moves without will.

All skillfulness, all strain, all intention is contrary to ease.

Practise a thousand times, and it becomes difficult; a thousand thousand, and it becomes easy; a thousand thousand times a thousand thousand, and it is no longer Thou that doeth it, but It that doeth itself through thee. Not until then is that which is done well done.

Thus spoke FRATER PERDURABO as he leapt from rock to rock of the moraine without ever casting his eyes upon the ground.

 

.....  

Bodily functions are parts of the machine; silent, unless in dis-ease.

But mind, never at ease, creaketh "I".

This I persisteth not, posteth not through generations, changeth momently, finally is dead.

Therefore is man only himself when lost to himself in The Charioting."

 

Not when on the road, there are too many hazards to act automatically.

[Karl]

While generally optimistic, I don't see lines in human history as much as curves...  Pendulum swings.

 

Prosperity plants the seeds of future recession.   Long enough peace devolves into potential for war.   Those who profess the highest level of reason can forget basic humanity.

 

Ideas, morals and tolerance swing from side to side.  Humanity may be getting more tolerant but our technology is getting more destructive. 

 

That's because you think in a collective sense. You can't manage the collective, only your self. The highest reasoning is completely human, it is the apex of being a human being. This is where many will evade, they cannot conceive of it, so they act like they think everybody else does and make the excuse that logic denies humanity, or that humans are irrational anyway. They create a web of justification in order not to know. Instead they believe they can reach utopia by refusing to think, by drifting or inversion. They look for trance states or other levels of consciousness to avoid what seems base and harsh.

 

Tolerance is evasion. It is to say we accept everything, we do not discriminate, we just go with the flow and sacrifice, or do our duty. It is to suppress and deny, to chain your mind, to use false reasoning to convince yourself that this 'isn't it', that there is something more and that this world is falsity.

 

Everyday people wander around in this dream state, it is not because they can't break it, it's because they fear to break it.

[Junko]

Never think like what human think.....

[thelerner]

Tolerance is evasion. It is to say we accept everything, we do not discriminate, we just go with the flow and sacrifice, or do our duty. It is to suppress and deny, to chain your mind, to use false reasoning to convince yourself that this 'isn't it', that there is something more and that this world is falsity. Everyday people wander around in this dream state, it is not because they can't break it, it's because they fear to break it.

Kinda pointless to argue with someone who continually falls back on 'anyone who disagrees with me is asleep and ignorant' but that tends to be included in most of your arguments. 

 

I could just reprint older criticisms of your writing/thinking style but since a few months gone by I'll write it up fresh.  Seems to me you live in a black and white world filled with absolutes.  Somewhat Orwellian too.  That you'd print something like Tolerance is evasion, shows you can't distinguish degrees.  For you it has to be all or nothing.   

 

Ultimately that mindset is the most limiting of all.   Ofcourse you see people as asleep because you see the world through a egotistic filter that if people don't believe the same way you do, they're asleep.  And your view sadly considers virtues like tolerance to be.. evasion.  Until you learn to see the world in its color and graduations you'll live in a world of black and white and wonder why everyone acts the way they do. 

Edited June 14, 2016 by thelerner

[Marblehead]

Never think like what human think.....

 

I try to think like a cat.

[Junko]

Seeing is believing...I said that it's because when you want to believe in something, you got to be a great believer!

[Marblehead]

Seeing is believing...I said that it's because when you want to believe in something, you got to be a great believer!

 

Well, sure.  When a person believes in ghosts their belief gets stronger whenever they think about it and even stronger when others are arguing against the belief.  Eventually the belief becomes so strong that the person starts seeing them.  It's called self-hypnosis.

[Nungali]

Not when on the road, there are too many hazards to act automatically.

 

Oh dear !

 

One would hope you WOULD react automatically to a  hazard on the road ? ? ?

 

What,   suddenly you spot a hole is in the track in front of you  and you ;   

 

"Ooooo  a hole ... now should I brake , swerve around it , maybe I could lift the bars up and clear the front wheel , or  perhaps ....

 

 

 

 

​

 

 

(Please excuse the bicycle theme , the motorcycle illustrations of the same results were rather gruesome. )

 

P.S.    are you 'aware' when you push the handlebars left to go right , or do you do that 'automatically' and believe you shifting your  weight does it ?

[Nungali]

 

 

Never think like what human think.....          ​

 

 

- that picture and that statement go so well together -    I want this on a t-shirt !     

[Karl]

Kinda pointless to argue with someone who continually falls back on 'anyone who disagrees with me is asleep and ignorant' but that tends to be included in most of your arguments. 

 

I could just reprint older criticisms of your writing/thinking style but since a few months gone by I'll write it up fresh.  Seems to me you live in a black and white world filled with absolutes.  Somewhat Orwellian too.  That you'd print something like Tolerance is evasion, shows you can't distinguish degrees.  For you it has to be all or nothing.   

 

Ultimately that mindset is the most limiting of all.   Ofcourse you see people as asleep because you see the world through a egotistic filter that if people don't believe the same way you do, they're asleep.  And your view sadly considers virtues like tolerance to be.. evasion.  Until you learn to see the world in its color and graduations you'll live in a world of black and white and wonder why everyone acts the way they do.

 

You wrote 'humanity is getting more tolerant' - have you the evidence that this is so ? What you refer to as tolerance may well be the result of intolerance, that's why it's bullshitty. It means nothing within the context of the sentence you wrote. One is 'tolerant' of a specific and your attempt to collectivise, is an evasion. Man is more tolerant of what exactly and how do you know it ? What you have written is a blatent generalisation with no context, so that's what I am speaking to.

 

I don't always explain the steps because it seems to me it's obvious when an argument is given which has no basis in fact.

 

It seems to me very clear why people act the way they do. What you describe as an egoistic filter, is an egoic filter.

 

Tolerance isn't a virtue and a cursory sweep through the annals of history will reveal plenty of factual evidence for why it can't be. Some of the most hideous crimes through the centuries are the result of tolerated irrational and violent behaviours. Once you begin tolerating things, it isn't long before someone wicked turns up and starts to take advantage. It's also the precursor to stagnation. The tolerant rarely want to improve things.

[Karl]

Oh dear !

 

One would hope you WOULD react automatically to a hazard on the road ? ? ?

 

What, suddenly you spot a hole is in the track in front of you and you ;

 

"Ooooo a hole ... now should I brake , swerve around it , maybe I could lift the bars up and clear the front wheel , or perhaps ....

 

 

 

 

​

 

 

(Please excuse the bicycle theme , the motorcycle illustrations of the same results were rather gruesome. )

 

P.S. are you 'aware' when you push the handlebars left to go right , or do you do that 'automatically' and believe you shifting your weight does it ?

Funnily enough you made an error, you push left to go left. You can also pull right to go left.

 

If you don't learn counter steering pretty quickly, particularly on a motorcycle, you often end up not enjoying the scenery by ending up part of it. :-) shifting your weight is useful though, it lowers the CoG which can help the balance/grip by letting the suspension track better and reducing the lean angle.

 

It's no good picking a hole in the road as an example of why you believe everything is automatic :-) it's necessary to read the road a long way ahead and to force yourself to scan and not to focus. You have to anticipate the actions of other drivers and react to the changing road conditions in advance, it's no good being forced into making emergency manoeuvres at the last minute.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Karl

[Stosh]

If you pull with your right hand , the handle on the right side, moves back which pivots the front of the wheel to point more to the right hand side which would tend to deflect the motion to the right side and one either leans to the right to stay above the center of motion or elevates to the left shifting their center of gravity back over center as a counter weight. But the front wheel has to point in the desired direction of travel or bad things happen. 

Isn't this the same as a kids bike and rather elementary? I dont ride a motorcycle , but to me it sounds false that you can steer right and go left without skidding or something,, like backing up . 

Edited June 15, 2016 by Stosh

[Karl]

If you pull with your right hand , the handle on the right side, moves back which pivots the front of the wheel to point more to the right hand side which would tend to deflect the motion to the right side and one either leans to the right to stay above the center of motion or elevates to the left shifting their center of gravity back over center as a counter weight. But the front wheel has to point in the desired direction of travel or bad things happen. 

Isn't this the same as a kids bike and rather elementary? I dont ride a motorcycle , but to me it sounds false that you can steer right and go left without skidding or something,, like backing up .

 

At very slow speeds that is indeed correct. Any speed above a crawl and counter steering comes into play. This isn't theory Stosh, it is unequivocally and factually correct. Most learner riders come to respect that wisdom the hard way. Motorcycle RTA reports are littered with FTS (failed to steer) and has often be attributed to the rider freezing and staring at the object they eventually hit, but that's only half the story, many actually revert back to their days riding tricycles, or using stabilisers and try and steer away from the danger, which puts them into a collision course-then they freeze.

 

Once counter steering is understood properly and riders train themselves to positive steering inputs, then they progress rapidly and the danger reduces. There are a lot of other instincts which have to be eradicated such as shutting the throttle through a turn (coasting) and improving visual awareness by looking wider.

[Stosh]

Well , I see the mechanism, but the counter-steering is not turning the bike in the desired direction, Its just tilting the bike so that a quick steer in the proper direction is possible.

It is Not pushing with the right hand to turn right , its laying the bike over preparatory to turning right. If one does not reverse and start pushing the correct way , like I told you to , you will not complete the turn. 

Edited June 15, 2016 by Stosh

[Karl]

Well , I see the mechanism, but the counter-steering is not turning the bike in the desired direction, Its just tilting the bike so that a quick steer in the proper direction is possible.

It is Not pushing with the right hand to turn right , its laying the bike over preparatory to turning right. If one does not reverse and start pushing the correct way , like I told you to , you will not complete the turn.

 

Its one quick push then you can take your hand away as the bike is self steering to an extent. Tilting the bike is steering it through the turn. The bike has to lean over in order to offset centripetal forces an gravity. The faster the speed, the harder you must counter steer. If you push left for left and then apply a counter push right the bike will turn right. Thats exactly what I do in a rapid series of fast turns. Push left and then rapidly back right. The bike goes rim to rim in an instant. You can slalom fast like that and some guys do it as a sport. The transition speed from lock to lock looks very impressive.

[Stosh]

I talked to a cyclist who said you should probably learn to ride correctly. 

[Junko]

What are differences between a motorcycle and a bike?

[Karl]

What are differences between a motorcycle and a bike?

Not much on the face of it, but a motorcycle is far more stable due to its speed. The wheels are gyroscopes and the faster and heavier, the greater the need to positively counter steer. On a pushbike you rarely think about it, the bike is light enough that you can create counter steering just by a shift in weight without touching the bars. DH bikes are a bit different, but then you are hitting speeds in excess of 70mph in a race so they do need a bit of a push at times.

[Karl]

I talked to a cyclist who said you should probably learn to ride correctly.

 

Yeah right :roller eyes: it's all fitting into place now. You really should stop taking the advice of folk who know nothing at all about the subject in question. Next time your cyclist friend approaches a turn ask him to push on the opposing bar and then count the seconds before he realises his mistake. My guess is mere milliseconds.

[Nungali]

Funnily enough you made an error, you push left to go left. You can also pull right to go left.

If you don't learn counter steering pretty quickly, particularly on a motorcycle, you often end up not enjoying the scenery by ending up part of it. :-) shifting your weight is useful though, it lowers the CoG which can help the balance/grip by letting the suspension track better and reducing the lean angle.

 

It's no good picking a hole in the road as an example of why you believe everything is automatic :-) it's necessary to read the road a long way ahead and to force yourself to scan and not to focus. You have to anticipate the actions of other drivers and react to the changing road conditions in advance, it's no good being forced into making emergency manoeuvres at the last minute.

 

DOH ! 

 

 

yeah, I mean 'steer' left to go right .  Funnily enough also, I made that error as I was thinking about it consciously and writing it down 'accurately' .... when I ride it happens 'automatically'.  I agree with the above , but you never do all that on automatic either ? Never 'automatically'  use pressure on the bars in the opposite direction to which you want to go ....  consciously choose and are aware of it each time ?

 

Or do you and machine flow along the road as one experienced and 'automatic' unit ?  

 

I suppose not .   However many people do function like this.  Martial arts is another example I can think of. 

 

The 'proof' of the function , I suppose, is in 'highway hypnosis'  . I noticed that VERY  much when I used to drive home late from town after my radio show. . . .   whole sections driven on automatic,  hairpins negotiated , stayed in the lane ... all of a sudden I am at the turn off - how the hell did I get here ? 

 

Its a common phenomena for some .

Edited June 15, 2016 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

 

 

Its a common phenomena for some .

But others have to get drunk to have that experience.

[Nungali]

Well , I see the mechanism, but the counter-steering is not turning the bike in the desired direction, Its just tilting the bike so that a quick steer in the proper direction is possible.

It is Not pushing with the right hand to turn right , its laying the bike over preparatory to turning right. If one does not reverse and start pushing the correct way , like I told you to , you will not complete the turn.

Hang on ... you don't ride a motorcycle, yet you want to argue this point ?

 

 

Again. as I said, its a bit like martial arts ... I love a verbal martial arts dispute .... I get into them all the time at the club , what I like is the way to sort it out

 

Same with the bike ..... okay Stosh , get on the bike and show me what you mean ... YOUR bike that is .

 

At speed, the front tyre is angled left, this gives the tyre an angle to the direction of travel, minutely the tyres right side is facing forward and creating friction and drag, causing tension in the front wheel, the top wants to go faster and forward, the bottom slower, 'tilting' the top of the wheel forward, there is more drag on the right side of the tyre than the left , because this cant happen due to the bikes set up, the whole machine starts to 'lean' right. Think of a tank or a tractor ..... you put the brakes on the left wheel, the thing turns left, put pressure (drag) on the right side of a tyre, by turning that side into the direction of travel, the bike will turn right.

 

A dog runs out in front of you, not seen until the last second ? Jerk the bars towards it and you will go around it (if you do it right )

[Karl]

DOH ! 

 

 

yeah, I mean 'steer' left to go right .  Funnily enough also, I made that error as I was thinking about it consciously and writing it down 'accurately' .... when I ride it happens 'automatically'.  I agree with the above , but you never do all that on automatic either ? Never 'automatically'  use pressure on the bars in the opposite direction to which you want to go ....  consciously choose and are aware of it each time ?

 

Or do you and machine flow along the road as one experienced and 'automatic' unit ?  

 

I suppose not .   However many people do function like this.  Martial arts is another example I can think of. 

 

The 'proof' of the function , I suppose, is in 'highway hypnosis'  . I noticed that VERY  much when I used to drive home late from town after my radio show. . . .   whole sections driven on automatic,  hairpins negotiated , stayed in the lane ... all of a sudden I am at the turn off - how the hell did I get here ? 

 

Its a common phenomena for some .

The steering function is automatic, but then I have been doing it so long and learned to use it when fear might bring on the opposite response. You might be surprised at the amount of experienced riders who know all about counter steering, but get as tangled up as a learner when faced with something unexpected. It's the same with throttle control-riders know how it works, then they find themselves on gravel, leaves, ice or diesel and immediately chop the throttle and deny the tyres any chance to find grip, it takes a lot of work to remove that reaction and I often start the season by practising rolling on the throttle on less than perfect surfaces.

 

You can drive on automatic because the car requires far less effort as it only operates in one plane. On a bike you have 3 planes, much like an aircraft, but with a million more hazards. You don't have the variation in height of an aircraft, but you have front rear weight shift through throttle and brakes, you have road position which might be called yaw and then there is roll. On an aircraft you sit back and operate the controls like a car, but a bike rider is coping with acceleration and deceleration forces, fighting instinctive reactions and a stall results in a fall, or crash. A bike is a very complex piece of machinery to operate, hence drivers need to be aware of the specifics so they might anticipate where a hapless rider might go. In a car, if you very a bit onto the curb then no issues, but on a bike that can be game over. I had a friend who crashed through a moments inattention, he looked at something and veered slightly off course, next moment he was cartwheeling down the road.

 

If you climb onto a bike, you had better be 100% fit, not distracted, a bit tired, or slightly woozy. There are days when you thread a series of bends, or an entire road perfectly, you anticipated all the hazards, you put the bike in the right place for safety and enjoyed some high speed thrills without any sense of fear or surprise. To be confident, precise, safe, quick and in control of a powerful motorcycle is like the skill of a fighter pilot, or an F1 driver, it gives an enormous sense of joy when it's performed well. I'm sure that some riders who ride more miles, or throughout the season probably require less thinking than someone who only rides summer miles- however, it is also true that most motorcycle accidents happen within a few miles of the riders home, which suggests that familiarity breeds contempt. That, at the times where they could more easily switch off, then they were at their most vulnerable.

[Nungali]