The origin of mankind

[Junko]

Let's say,I am curious.I don't think I am holding on supernatural beliefs.I am great believer that everybody can learn how to be mature and wise.

Why there are fools? Because there are wise.In opposite,there are wise that is why there are fools.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Junko

[Karl]

  Personally, I don't consider holding supernatural beliefs to be mature.

 

Or rational.

[Nungali]

a wise man can play at being a fool but a fool playing at being a wise man is  .......  

 

 

... how does that go again ?  

Edited April 12, 2016 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

Let's say,I am curious.I don't think I am holding on supernatural beliefs.I am great believer that everybody can learn how to be mature and wise.

Why there are fools? Because there are wise.In opposite,there are wise that is why there are fools.

I don't like to use the word "fool".  Bad negative connotations.

 

And, of course, I don't like to speak in dualities and don't if I can avoid it so let's not consider the "wise" to be the opposite of the "fool".  Okay?

 

I agree with you that everybody with a properly functioning brain can learn how to mature and be wise.  But this requires trade-offs.  In the realm of the concept (intellectual symbolizing) there are two paths toward which we acquire our beliefs:  totally new information or information that is contradictory to beliefs we presently hold

 

The key to both is in the testing of the information that has come available to us.

 

If it is new and unique information we test it for its validity.  If it holds true to our testing then it is something we could accept into our belief system.  (We don't have to though.)

 

If it is information that is contradictory to beliefs we currently hold then there is more work to be done.  First we need to test the new information.  Does it hold true?  If it does then we need to test our current belief.  Does it hold true?  If it doesn't then it can be thrown into the trash can.  If it still holds true for us then we have choices to make.  Hold one, discard the other; discard the other and hold the new, or maybe hold to both and integrate them.

 

But whatever, what we hold to should hold true to honest questioning, not just because it feels good to us.  It has been said, the truth hurts.  This is because the truth oftentimes destroys our illusions and delusions that we believe give us peace of mind.

[Marblehead]

Just to add for possibly more thought:

 

The Easter Bunny really does not exist.  But it was still fun looking for eggs on Easter morning when I was a kid.

 

Santa Claus really does not exist.  But it was still fun getting presents on Christmas morning when I was a kid.

 

I'm a big boy now.  I can buy eggs anytime I want and eat them any time I want.  I can buy myself a present any time I want and likely it will be something I wanted more than some of the presents I got on Christmas morning.

 

It's nice for a people to have a culture and to preserve that culture.  But at some point in our life we should determine what parts of our culture are based in truth and what parts are based in myths.

[Junko]

You know it is not difficult to be fool.But it's difficult to be wise.Particulary where I came from where people are telling me to learn to be fool.

Whatever you see and do, everything around you is happening are all just for you.For you to learn and fulfill your all wishes.

I am not writeing about duality.I am writeing about polarity.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Junko

[Marblehead]

You know it is not difficult to be fool.But it's difficult to be wise.Particulary where I came from where people are telling me to learn to be fool. Whatever you see and do, everything is happening are all just for you.For you to learn and fulfill your all wishes.

Well, I will admit that it is easier to be happy (whatever that is) if one is a fool (ignorant).  You have no worries because there is nothing that you need to know.  Wanting to know the truth is disturbing because people rarely tell you the truth.  You have to search and question everything.  That's a lot of mental work.

 

I suppose one can be happy whether they are a fool or a wise person.  It all depends on one's personal values.

[Junko]

To do a lot of mental work,that is why I came here to this planet for.Try to think and use my brain properly.....

[Marblehead]

To do a lot of mental work,that is why I came here to this planet for.Try to think and use my brain properly.....

Yes, I have noticed that.  And I respect your desire to improve your understandings of life.

 

We here on the DaoBums planet are a mix of almost anything one will find anywhere in the universe.

 

As has been said many times before, there is more than one path one can travel in order to reach the Valley of the Spirit.  (That is that state of peace and contentment.)

 

Whatever path we walk it should be one that is natural and one upon which we can be true to our self.

 

When we find a path that is good for us we should walk that path.  But I feel it should be a path that does not present us with many disappointments.  Disappointments do not bring happiness.

[Karl]

Humans who are ignorant are not happy. The 'happy fool' is a delusion in the same sense as Father Christmas.

To correctly understand this is to realise that man uses reason to survive. If he makes substantial errors then he risks his life and therefore his happiness. A fool who discovers he is a fool is unhappy. The onlookers who see the happy fool are not yet cognisant of the misery the fool will endure when he realises his mistake.

 

The 'happy fool' is therefore an impossibility unless the man is devoid of the faculty of reason which would mean a serious mental disability. Someone devoid of reason is not a 'fool' but the mental equivalent of an animal at best. Happiness would mean nothing at all beyond a sensation of pleasure to someone in that position. It is reason which allows the concept of happiness to be interpreted.

 

Of course, the fool who makes a mistake and does not yet know it can be happy with the irrational decision, right up to the point he discovers he was wrong. Gamblers are a prime example of irrational behaviour. Even though they realise they cannot beat the system, they always believe they are just one throw of the dice from financial abundance. The result is the seeming necessity of laws to prevent the irrational from carrying out irrational activity.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Karl

[Junko]

The origin of mankind is about mathematic,I start thinking more and more that way.

[Stosh]

a wise man can play at being a fool but a fool playing at being a wise man is  .......  

Commonplace?

[Karl]

The origin of mankind is about mathematic,I start thinking more and more that way.

 

Rand suggests that concept formation is mathematical. That we integrate and differentiate quantities would suggest a strong connection.

 

"Perceptual awareness is arithmetic, but conceptual awareness is the algebra of cognition"

 

Our mental processes consist of retaining the characteristics but omitting the measurements. So that it must exist in some quantity, but may exist in any quantity. Measurement is the perceptual concretisation. So, we see a tree full of apples and omit the number. Then we can concretise it by measurement. We do the same thing with an equation. The symbols stand for some value, but stand for any value. When we plug in the numbers we move from conceptual to concrete reality.

[Stosh]

To do a lot of mental work,that is why I came here to this planet for.Try to think and use my brain properly.....

Maybe true, but what is 'properly' in this context? From the point of view of an outsider, well they may not be as impressed with the mathematical reasoning someone else can do. 

Im thinking the word fool , can indicate different things about people , not just errors they might make but things which they don't ummm partake of. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Rand suggests that concept formation is mathematical. That we integrate and differentiate quantities would suggest a strong connection. "Perceptual awareness is arithmetic, but conceptual awareness is the algebra of cognition" Our mental processes consist of retaining the characteristics but omitting the measurements. So that it must exist in some quantity, but may exist in any quantity. Measurement is the perceptual concretisation. So, we see a tree full of apples and omit the number. Then we can concretise it by measurement. We do the same thing with an equation. The symbols stand for some value, but stand for any value. When we plug in the numbers we move from conceptual to concrete reality.

I'm thinking other people care more about the fate of someone that exhibits kindness , than acumen. Is this true?  

[Karl]

I'm thinking other people care more about the fate of someone that exhibits kindness , than acumen. Is this true?  

 

I wouldn't know and I haven't given much thought to it. There is great irrationality in today's world which tends to substitute emotion for reason. As such, people's values, morals and ethics tend to be corrupted. It means they make greater error in judgement (valuation) so your assertion might well be correct in a certain context. It's true that people generally do not see entrepreneurial business people as having much value, which is why they continually attempt to bring them down. The hatred of the good for being the good. Acts of kindness are difficult to assess. Faux Altruists such as Bob Geldof have likely done more harm than good, as is the case with foreign aid.

[Stosh]

I was thinking along the lines of acumen in general rather than business. Speaking only for myself , I thought in general someone is more concerned with whether they thought someone was good , rather than clever. as in 'Screw that guy!' but not this guy . .. frankly I don't know the actual public view on this. 

[Michael Sternbach]

Hehehe.  No problem.  I'm an Atheist and a Materialist (amongst other things).

 

But yes, if you continue to live you will get older.  That's nature's way.  But mentally we are supposed to become more mature.  Personally, I don't consider holding supernatural beliefs to be mature.

 

 

Or rational.

 

Not so.

 

As Captain Hunt's Nietzschean friend said to him in the TV series Andromeda Ascendant: "There is no magic. Only science that you don't understand."

[Karl]

I was thinking along the lines of acumen in general rather than business. Speaking only for myself , I thought in general someone is more concerned with whether they thought someone was good , rather than clever. as in 'Screw that guy!' but not this guy . .. frankly I don't know the actual public view on this. 

 

It's another form of acumen. It's also a practical form in a similar sense to an innovator. They produce something useful and profit in some way from the productive value that others place on the product. All productive creators gain by their production in the sense of self esteem, if not by direct profit.

 

There is a lot of merit applied to those who are second handers or non productive. The Royal family being a good example, but there are numerous politicians such as Bevan who are seen as doing 'good works' and yet they do nothing at all. They receive payment regardless of their value and their work is entirely based on the efforts of the productive to finance their 'good works'.

 

So, perhaps we can say that very often the wrong people get praised by others people, but equally demand that kind of praise, where as, the independently productive derives satisfaction out of his work and financial reward is given as an exchange for value and not as a gift.

[Karl]

Not so.

 

As Captain Hunt's Nietzschean friend said to him in the TV series Andromeda Ascendant: "There is no magic. Only science that you don't understand."

 

Your 'science' isn't even magic, it isn't anything. You say the Sun is conscious and yet this is illogical, as is your assertion consciousness can exist without perception. However you persist in your erroneous delusion because you heard a voice in your head that you believe was the Sun. I can tell you the voice in your head was yours and yours alone. You manufactured a perceptual error, there has never been a form of ESP, intrincisism, or divine revelation despite numerous scientific experiments. We can dust that off as false.

 

I don't mean this to be cruel, I think it's important that you come to terms with the error you have made before it gets compounded leading to something more unpleasant. However, as always, the choice is quite clearly yours.

[Stosh]

It's another form of acumen. It's also a practical form in a similar sense to an innovator. They produce something useful and profit in some way from the productive value that others place on the product. All productive creators gain by their production in the sense of self esteem, if not by direct profit. There is a lot of merit applied to those who are second handers or non productive. The Royal family being a good example, but there are numerous politicians such as Bevan who are seen as doing 'good works' and yet they do nothing at all. They receive payment regardless of their value and their work is entirely based on the efforts of the productive to finance their 'good works'. So, perhaps we can say that very often the wrong people get praised by others people, but equally demand that kind of praise, where as, the independently productive derives satisfaction out of his work and financial reward is given as an exchange for value and not as a gift.

Reasonable.. but praise, which can be done for various reasons, and- caring about the welfare of someone else not for personal gain.. is another.  Are you saying that its the norm to have warm care for people based on their production value? Lets take for example Mr Trump or Hillary Clinton, neither is very likeable IMO , but the are seen as doers , and they get supported on that basis ,, but I dont think I would be saddened about a difficulty they had any more than they would give a hoot about me. So if a ship was going down , I wouldnt be the first to Call out, Politicians and children first ! SO as a norm, do people really CARE for these people, It can go either way , I know Presidents like Lincoln and Kennedy certainly were grieved ,but in normal life .. acquaintances .. dunno. +

I was reading a thing about morality last night , and that which was promoted as the highest good was to serve both self and society , to be nice and kind and promote these as ideals . That this kind of merit benefited the person who acted like that ,, BUT it seems that this is sort of misleading if the public doesnt really care in return for persons with these values,, the values being professed as best for the individuals welfare probably isnt.,,, nice guys finishing last etc.

This does , by the way ,eventually feed back to the origins thing. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Stosh

[qofq]

Your 'science' isn't even magic, it isn't anything. You say the Sun is conscious and yet this is illogical, as is your assertion consciousness can exist without perception. However you persist in your erroneous delusion because you heard a voice in your head that you believe was the Sun. I can tell you the voice in your head was yours and yours alone. You manufactured a perceptual error, there has never been a form of ESP, intrincisism, or divine revelation despite numerous scientific experiments. We can dust that off as false.

 

I don't mean this to be cruel, I think it's important that you come to terms with the error you have made before it gets compounded leading to something more unpleasant. However, as always, the choice is quite clearly yours.

 

You know, you really ruin a lot of the conversations for me that I read around here with all this nasty energy you put off in regards to experiences which you haven't had.

 

So I thank you for showing me some things I could work on

 

 

[Stosh]

You know, you really ruin a lot of the conversations for me that I read around here with all this nasty energy you put off in regards to experiences which you haven't had. So I thank you for showing me some things I could work on

Heres another , delete post 777 which is an angry post. 

[Marblehead]

The origin of mankind is about mathematic,I start thinking more and more that way.

Yes, one plus one can easily make three.

[Karl]

Reasonable.. but praise, which can be done for various reasons, and- caring about the welfare of someone else not for personal gain.. is another.  Are you saying that its the norm to have warm care for people based on their production value? Lets take for example Mr Trump or Hillary Clinton, neither is very likeable IMO , but the are seen as doers , and they get supported on that basis ,, but I dont think I would be saddened about a difficulty they had any more than they would give a hoot about me. So if a ship was going down , I wouldnt be the first to Call out, Politicians and children first ! SO as a norm, do people really CARE for these people, It can go either way , I know Presidents like Lincoln and Kennedy certainly were grieved ,but in normal life .. acquaintances .. dunno. +

I was reading a thing about morality last night , and that which was promoted as the highest good was to serve both self and society , to be nice and kind and promote these as ideals . That this kind of merit benefited the person who acted like that ,, BUT it seems that this is sort of misleading if the public doesnt really care in return for persons with these values,, the values being professed as best for the individuals welfare probably isnt.,,, nice guys finishing last etc.

This does , by the way ,eventually feed back to the origins thing. 

 

No politician fits into the category of productive. Their entire lives are built on obtaining value through other men, not by productivity. Jury is out on Trump, he utilised political pull for most of his wealth from what I understand.

 

Everyone has personal gain. I care for my wife and she does for me. It's a mutually beneficial relationship in which we gain value. If you help your next door neighbour with her shopping you should ask why ? If it is because you get a sense of joy out of the action then that is good. If you do it to gain a value you did not earn by getting in her good books, or looking good to your neighbours then this is not a good.

 

The only good is to serve the self, but to do so ethically and morally. This is rational selfishness. Serving society is slavery/sacrifice. If you do what is good by rational selfishness then society will benefit as a result of your work, but that should not be the aim. The result of serving society resulted in Stalinism. It is anti-life. All sacrifice by implication is anti-life. So, duty, sacrifice, common good or any of those murderous epithets should be discouraged. Do charitable things, be kind, be generous of material and spirit to those who deserve it, who agree and join with your ethical/moral values because it gives you happiness to lift those who can contribute to life. Don't give to despots, thieves, murderers, fraudsters, the corrupt, lazy or otherwise devoid of a moral code or you will be speeding your demise and those of the good.