The origin of mankind

[Karl]

 " Everything is made of something else  "   ....    ?  

 

 

More T-shirt material that one !   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ridiculous  ...........  nowadays we all know the Sun uses a segway . 

 

Y'know what I mean, it does get tedious describing causality.

 

Ah Segway, I had wondered :-)

[Nungali]

Talking to a friend yesterday in the park in town and all of a sudden she screams "Daisy ! Don't you dare ! " and Daisy , her Staffie dog, who had started wiggling ( what they do when they want to wag a tail they dont have ) over to this kid in a stroller, comes back looking like she is in trouble.

 

"Whats that about?" I asked her .

 

Her : ( sheepish and a bit embarrassed) "She has taken to stealing food off children ."

 

Edited May 10, 2016 by Nungali

[Stosh]

Eh,, I do get the sentiment , but from a personal standpoint , Ill take the million conscripts, and let em all go home -once theyve dispatched the volunteer and secured us all some booty. Volunteers are operating out of their own volition by definition,, and frankly I dont want to put up with anyone elses motivations. Being a materialist ,,Im not supposed to care why they do as theyve been told, just that they do it. 

What? no rational rebuttal to dictatorship and enslavement?? no personal concession of personal sovreignity in the pursuit of others welfare admitted? tsk tsk.

[Marblehead]

What? no rational rebuttal to dictatorship and enslavement?? no personal concession of personal sovreignity in the pursuit of others welfare admitted? tsk tsk.

I wasn't a part of that side conversation so I just remained silent wondering where this would go.

 

Okay.  It went nowhere.  My position on dictatorships and enslavement should be well established here.  I mean, really, what would an Anarchist want with dictators or slaves?

 

Sure, you could likely accomplish more with a million slaves than you could with only one volunteer.  And for what?  Temporary personal gain?

 

 

"Blank Slate" is an interesting theory.  I actually hold to it but not as an absolute as later in the development of the theory which includes behavior modification.

 

"... pursuit of others welfare ..."  Universal compassion?  And when the passion dies?

[Stosh]

Im thinking one either values the immaterial or doesnt. If one doesnt theyre materialist. An anarchistic view, where people operate with a sort of non interference policy, seems untenable when the desires of others factor in to the pursuits one chooses for themselves. Briefly speaking, im thinking that there isnt feasible purity in either of these ,,or optimism,, for that matter. Conscripts ,, or the unwilling,, must cooperate to some degree. Volunteers must subordinate themselves to some degree as well,, so their behavior isnt purely as they will either. All cooperation then, including anarchy, is mitigated...same as optimism has its limits. I was hoping to more smoothly segue into this, but .. no luck.

[Stosh]

Whats wrong with temporary gain? Each life is temporary, even if one reincarnates.

Blank slate? Honestly theres very little of ,even, last week that I really remember,, past lives? really? cmon.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Im thinking one either values the immaterial or doesnt. If one doesnt theyre materialist.

No, you didn't work that smoothly, but still, ...

 

Defining the materialist is difficult.  I value the immaterial but I also acknowledge and adapt as best I can with the materialist.

 

Yes, life is a series of cost/benefit choices.  Rarely do we make choices outside this limiter.

 

But then, if we do not hold to the concept of the existence of absolutes we will never find true purity.

[Marblehead]

Whats wrong with temporary gain? Each life is temporary, even if one reincarnates.

Blank slate? Honestly theres very little of ,even, last week that I really remember,, past lives? really? cmon.

 

Nothing wrong with temporary gain.  Long term gain is good too.

 

Reincarnation and past lifes?  You are talking with the wrong person here.

 

Blank slate isn't referring to the forgetfulness of old age.  Hehehe.  We all get that.

 

When we are born we have a blank brain.  It can be formed into whatever.  This is a good theory when connected with behavior modification.  All children are taught to hold the Taoist Three Treasures in their heart.

 

But sadly any such power will be abused.

[Stosh]

I agree, but.. that doesnt mean I think there is true polemic purity to be found. It actually means the opposite. Purity must be accepting the entire scope of the issue rather than half.

[Stosh]

I was suggested the idea that the mind has some empty shelves, and one places things on them. It could be likes and dislikes, gender identity, phobias, profanity, justice,,to name several. The mind then can be seen as not exactly blank ,, but not exactly programmed. This fits facts as I see em , and it bridges a gap between nature vs nurture ists. Similarly, proclivities and predispositions arent always brought to bear fruit.

... the abuse of what powers exactly?

Edited May 11, 2016 by Stosh

[Karl]

I was suggested the idea that the mind has some empty shelves, and one places things on them. It could be likes and dislikes, gender identity, phobias, profanity, justice,,to name several. The mind then can be seen as not exactly blank ,, but not exactly programmed. This fits facts as I see em , and it bridges a gap between nature vs nurture ists. Similarly, proclivities and predispositions arent always brought to bear fruit.

... the abuse of what powers exactly?

 

Hierarchy of concepts based on direct experience of and rooted in reality. The nature of man is a rational animal-who most use his mind to survive as his only tool of survival. However, it is relatively easy to distort the link to reality by the use of torture- as practised by millions of state education institutions and by violent/abusive parents. Indoctrinate children with the idea that socialism is good, there is a God, reality can't be known and therefore pragmatism is a necessity, use tests to allocate them their place in society which will follow them around from job to job, discourage them from critical thinking and logic-teach skills, disrupt their learning with bells, give them pointless tasks in order that they obey commands from authority, teach them Government/ state are necessary for their survival and happiness.

 

However, though brain washing indoctrination certainly works and breaks the link between reality and concept the mind is still able to relearn, to undo what was done, to break the states conditioning and reconnect with reality.

[Junko]

The theory of mankind.Could be important aspect.I am wondering why we all have horoscope.Could that be from the horoscope we can find out little by little?

[Karl]

The theory of mankind.Could be important aspect.I am wondering why we all have horoscope.Could that be from the horoscope we can find out little by little?

 

Very little to nothing at all. Horoscopes told us nothing about evolution or the existence of genes.

[silent thunder]

I keep returning to this...

 

To claim an origin there must be a break... a before and after.  Where is that I keep wondering...

 

In a fluid, never static universe, where is the line of demarcation, the distinction point of human from cosmos, exactly?

 

In what capacity are we separate that we could have some identifiable independent origin?

 

Where to make the distinction between human and universe... flowing, fluid actionable body of human, fluid epoch of the same atoms which in my hands seemingly now and yet once within stars bursting in light and never a stopping point in between? 

 

The action of my thymus as intimately and unmistakably flowing still with the pulse of the supernovae.

Simple, effortless, like acorns settling on soil.

[Karl]

I keep returning to this...

 

To claim an origin there must be a break... a before and after.  Where is that I keep wondering...

 

In a fluid, never static universe, where is the line of demarcation, the distinction point of human from cosmos, exactly?

 

In what capacity are we separate that we could have some identifiable independent origin?

 

Where to make the distinction between human and universe... flowing, fluid actionable body of human, fluid epoch of the same atoms which in my hands seemingly now and yet once within stars bursting in light and never a stopping point in between? 

 

The action of my thymus as intimately and unmistakably flowing still with the pulse of the supernovae.

Simple, effortless, like acorns settling on soil.

 

Exactly my point with 'everything is made from something else'. We coalesced as humans and here we are. Trying to find an origin of a computer is easier because man created it-the origin of a computer is man, the origin of the materials for the computer is the universe. Man had no origin from the perspective of a creation of something such as God, but mans material being and consciousness is part of the causality of the universe. If man had a creator, that creator is of the universe and, just like the computer we are a product of its mind, our material is a product of the universe and exactly the same regression applies to any creator.

[Stosh]

Hierarchy of concepts based on direct experience of and rooted in reality. The nature of man is a rational animal-who most use his mind to survive as his only tool of survival. However, it is relatively easy to distort the link to reality by the use of torture- as practised by millions of state education institutions and by violent/abusive parents. Indoctrinate children with the idea that socialism is good, there is a God, reality can't be known and therefore pragmatism is a necessity, use tests to allocate them their place in society which will follow them around from job to job, discourage them from critical thinking and logic-teach skills, disrupt their learning with bells, give them pointless tasks in order that they obey commands from authority, teach them Government/ state are necessary for their survival and happiness. However, though brain washing indoctrination certainly works and breaks the link between reality and concept the mind is still able to relearn, to undo what was done, to break the states conditioning and reconnect with reality.

There's a lot of ideas here, ,,attending  one at a time ,,   one power , as you see it? ,is the hierarchy of concepts based on direct experience rooted in reality? 

Umm Im not so certain our concepts have any kind of order , and Im not convinced that we directly experience external things, and I dont think we need confine reality to externals either.  Tough row to hoe here.

I look at a painting, my eyes roam, I build up an integrated perception of the image and have some sentiment or conclusions regarding it.. what order? what unreality? what power? is there. 

Edited May 11, 2016 by Stosh

[Karl]

There's a lot of ideas here, ,,attending  one at a time ,,   one power , as you see it? ,is the hierarchy of concepts based on direct experience rooted in reality? 

Umm Im not so certain our concepts have any kind of order , and Im not convinced that we directly experience external things, and I dont think we need confine reality to externals either.  Tough row to hoe here.

 

Not sure what you mean by 'one power' ?

 

Yes, concepts are based on direct experience (perception of the senses), but they are abstractions of perceptions. Their roots are in reality-even if the concept is a floating or erroneous abstraction, an intentional evasion (disintegration of concepts) or erroneous combining of concepts (integration).

 

Depends what you mean by order ? There is a hierachy but don't think of it as something precisely linear or ordinal. We have lower order concepts and higher order concepts. I'm about to cover all that in objectivist 101.

 

Direct experience of reality is already covered in 101-it would be up to you to rebut it whilst depending on it to support any argument utilising it. Every concept must be proven by the senses that percieve it.

 

Depends what you mean by externals. I mean external to the conscious mind and not to the body.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

Not sure what you mean by 'one power' ? Yes, concepts are based on direct experience (perception of the senses), but they are abstractions of perceptions. Their roots are in reality-even if the concept is a floating or erroneous abstraction, an intentional evasion (disintegration of concepts) or erroneous combining of concepts (integration). Depends what you mean by order ? There is a hierachy but don't think of it as something precisely linear or ordinal. We have lower order concepts and higher order concepts. I'm about to cover all that in objectivist 101. Direct experience of reality is already covered in 101-it would be up to you to rebut it whilst depending on it to support any argument utilising it. Every concept must be proven by the senses that percieve it. Depends what you mean by externals. I mean external to the conscious mind and not to the body.

One power was questioning whether that which you were describing was to be considered one of the powers that Mh attributed to the childlike perspective. The order was regarding your mention of hierarchy , which is a type of ordering system. 

I read some of the 101, but felt it went on too long without giving a space to touch base with me , an audience- before marching forward. By externals I am referring to your own division between the mental and physical which you divided when you use the term 'rooted in". For instance the tree is rooted in the soil , implies there is a separation between soils and trees though they may be connected. ( otherwise the tree would be an extension of the soil rather than anchored in it) 

[Stosh]

The theory of mankind.Could be important aspect.I am wondering why we all have horoscope.Could that be from the horoscope we can find out little by little?

I'm thinking a horoscope  can be an investigative tool , but frankly people just like hearing about themselves, from a perspective which infers that there is factual basis for what they choose, that faults may be excused as fate, and an actual destiny which they can fulfill. 

[Karl]

One power was questioning whether that which you were describing was to be considered one of the powers that Mh attributed to the childlike perspective. The order was regarding your mention of hierarchy , which is a type of ordering system. 

I read some of the 101, but felt it went on too long without giving a space to touch base with me , an audience- before marching forward. By externals I am referring to your own division between the mental and physical which you divided when you use the term 'rooted in". For instance the tree is rooted in the soil , implies there is a separation between soils and trees though they may be connected. ( otherwise the tree would be an extension of the soil rather than anchored in it) 

 

I don't know how MH meant it, only it was something to do with the Tao which I'm not too familiar with.

 

Yes, it's an ordered system of sorts-I'm being careful not to imply rigidity.

 

It's difficult to give much space without breaking up each part of 101. Just put the part that you want to ask questions about.

 

When I said 'rooted in' I mean that we hold concepts related/predicated on our direct perceptions. The implication of that statement is existence exists prior to consciousness and we can know it through direct perception of our senses. Once at the conceptual stage we can for instance imagine a perpetual motion machine even though it cannot exist. We can do so because we have the concepts of motion, causality etc and we have the concept of a machine, we have every other concept such as identity, shape, colour in order to create the integration. When we try and relate the conception back to perception/reality then we realise we have made an error.

[Stosh]

Im still stuck on the idea of mental 'order' tho. Dont ideas just well up full blown with all the associations for you?  You mention a perpetual motion machine and I think of one of those liquid filled glass bird things that tilt occasionally for some reason. I see a vague mental image and remember I dont like the glued on parts depicting a bird with a hat on, and yet can picture it without specific color assignment ,, the top-hat could be red or green, the sun reflects on the glass , but I dont know what direction its from and I dont know the principle by which its functioning. 

Its all there at the same time, a presentation of all the specific associations that I do and dont have. So I don't see any order to it , loose or otherwise. 

I know adults can build upon associations ,but this isn't childlike thought development , is it? So it wouldnt be exemplary  the powerful Taoist treasure Mh referred to. 

[Karl]

Im still stuck on the idea of mental 'order' tho. Dont ideas just well up full blown with all the associations for you?  You mention a perpetual motion machine and I think of one of those liquid filled glass bird things that tilt occasionally for some reason. I see a vague mental image and remember I dont like the glued on parts depicting a bird with a hat on, and yet can picture it without specific color assignment ,, the top-hat could be red or green, the sun reflects on the glass , but I dont know what direction its from and I dont know the principle by which its functioning. 

Its all there at the same time, a presentation of all the specific associations that I do and dont have. So I don't see any order to it , loose or otherwise. 

I know adults can build upon associations ,but this isn't childlike thought development , is it? So it wouldnt be exemplary  the powerful Taoist treasure Mh referred to. 

 

All of those concepts are based on other concepts that are already integrated. It's not necessary to know or understand the exact sequence of the perceptions, differentiations and integrations. I'm covering concept formation next in 101, so I can expand a bit on a very complex subject. It will also cover an infants perceptions to first conceptions-entity, identity, classification.

[Stosh]

All of those concepts are based on other concepts that are already integrated. It's not necessary to know or understand the exact sequence of the perceptions, differentiations and integrations. I'm covering concept formation next in 101, so I can expand a bit on a very complex subject. It will also cover an infants perceptions to first conceptions-entity, identity, classification.

Can we agree that the experience is simultaneous and complete, a full blown presentation? and move on from there? 

[Junko]

I've never seen something like this Karl wants to advertise himself on my threads.

Why I mentioned horoscope that we are connected to the soler system.For example one of our eye belong to Moon or Sun.Then our body belong to Saturn.

 

[Karl]

Can we agree that the experience is simultaneous and complete, a full blown presentation? and move on from there? 

 

Yes, our precepts our direct experiences from our sense organs.