The origin of mankind

[Marblehead]

If the universe exists, it began.

 

Yea!!!  We got some Daoist philosophy in there.

[Marblehead]

Things are converted from one thing to another. The only thing that can be said to end is the individual life for a living entity.

 

I have to agree with that.

[Karl]

Just because we put a label on it doesn't necessarily make it true.

 

 

We are playing with words here but I won't disagree with you.

 

 

No argument here either.  I am just on the edge of how far I can go with this and still be speaking the truth as I understand it.

 

No, I cannot prove the existence of multiverses.  Even if it is true it likely would be unprovable.

 

I have some garden fairies.

 

 

I agree but ... one day I will die.  That will be the end of Marblehead.

 

Seriously you could make a vicar weep .....oh you did that already :-)

 

It isn't the label which is true. It's a conceptual symbol for a perceptual reality. if you ask me to point out the universe I swing my hand in an arc and motion generally. There it is. Can you deny it ?

 

Because we can abstract, therefore we can know lots of things that we can't see and may never set eyes upon. We can know there are millions and millions of chairs, even though we never see them we induce their existence. So, we can chunk up the abstract and induce the entirety of everything and that is the universe.

 

We can ask ourselves how it came about. What or who created it, but then, as we know it is the induced sum of all things we can know that it could never have been created otherwise it wouldn't be the sum of all things.

 

Now you might say that we can't know anything, that our perceptions and conceptions are completely false, but then you must deny that you can deny anything because you have denied that you have anything but falsehoods. Then of course you can't know anything at all with certainty and you are just spewing random noises into the aether not knowing if you even exist.

[Karl]

I have to agree with that.

 

Here comes that kick boxing foot.... :-)

[Stosh]

Rushes out to where ? Space isn't a thing, it's a dimension a distance between A and B. There is no point at which it is devoid of everything, or it wouldn't be anything. Even if some - let's call it stuff- could leak out, it couldn't leak anywhere outside of where there is no outside. You can't poke a hole in the universe because that would mean the universe was not the universe.

 

I'm not a scientist-obviously :-)

 

If you have a beech then put up two flags. Then we measure the space between the two flags, but that isn't an area devoid of anything because we happened to measure to concentrate on the flags. There are distances between the air molecules, sand grains and so many smaller and smaller kinds of things that there may not be an end to them. So space is full of stuff, chocolate full of stuff, it's only our conception that allows us to make specific distinctions between planets and Suns. If we didn't have the faculty then everything would just be everything in one big chaotic soup.

Back to the donut analogy, and the three things , The donuts hole is where the donut is not. Space is not nothing , it actually has properties of its own which determine things like humans can exist in it. Thats why there is nothing supernatural. Havent you ever heard that stuff expands to fit the space provided?   and the theory of 'conservation of mass energy and space ?'

Its all here with none of that aggressive crunching going on. Its like pulling a glove off,  inside out. 

 

Yes its all a big soup , just not chaotic , it has rules of its own. Even chicken soup is not chaotic , it has no pork chops in it ,, carrots dont merge with celery , and it doesnt fly out of the bowl on its own. Though it would run out a hole.  

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"The only thing that can be said to end is the individual life for a living entity."

-----

 

Did last Monday begin?

 

Did last Monday then end?

 

Did you ever see a movie that began?

 

It came to an end, then everyone left the theater..

 

Every thing is changing.

 

All beginnings end.

 

If you say Monday was part of a continuum, did the continuum begin?

 

Of course. And it will end.

 

But what never began will never end.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Junko]

Someone suggested a book to read about my thread. Is there a good book?

[Karl]

Someone suggested a book to read about my thread. Is there a good book?

 

No, they meant this is a book at 101 pages.

[Junko]

Hihihi, 103 dalmatina.

[Stosh]

Someone suggested a book to read about my thread. Is there a good book?

The NeverEnding Story (German: Die unendliche Geschichte) is a 1984 West German (English language) epic fantasy film based on the novel of the same name by Michael Ende, about a boy who reads a magical book that tells a story of a young warrior whose task is to stop a dark storm called the Nothing from engulfing a fantasy world. The film was produced by Bernd Eichinger and Dieter Giessler and directed and co-written by Wolfgang Petersen (his first English-language film) and starred Barret Oliver, Noah Hathaway, Tami Stronach, Moses Gunn, Thomas Hill; and Alan Oppenheimer as the voices of both Falkor and Gmork. At the time of its release, it was the most expensive film produced outside the USA or the USSR. The film was later followed by two sequels.^[2]

[Junko]

Wow I know 'Never Ending Story'very well.....! I was wondering in the end of this movie why I was seeing a wolf showing up in a dark cave.

[Stosh]

Thats a prelude to a sequel. Or death. 

[Karl]

Re:

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"The only thing that can be said to end is the individual life for a living entity."

-----

 

Did last Monday begin?

 

Did last Monday then end?

 

Did you ever see a movie that began?

 

It came to an end, then everyone left the theater..

 

Every thing is changing.

 

All beginnings end.

 

If you say Monday was part of a continuum, did the continuum begin?

 

Of course. And it will end.

 

But what never began will never end.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

You are referring to man made things. I refer you back to life ending, because these things are directly attributable man. These are things we have control of by the expediency of life and reason.

 

What never began, never ends. That's correct. The universe never began and it will never end.

[Junko]

So white Doragon was expressed 'life'.....Stosh!

Edited May 27, 2016 by Junko

[Stosh]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Neverending_Story_characters

 

I dont know what Doragon refers to . 

[Karl]

Back to the donut analogy, and the three things , The donuts hole is where the donut is not. Space is not nothing , it actually has properties of its own which determine things like humans can exist in it. Thats why there is nothing supernatural. Havent you ever heard that stuff expands to fit the space provided? and the theory of 'conservation of mass energy and space ?'

Its all here with none of that aggressive crunching going on. Its like pulling a glove off, inside out.

 

Yes its all a big soup , just not chaotic , it has rules of its own. Even chicken soup is not chaotic , it has no pork chops in it ,, carrots dont merge with celery , and it doesnt fly out of the bowl on its own. Though it would run out a hole.

Please not the doughnut, anything but the doughnut. :-)

 

No, the doughnut is a specific kind of thing that can be defined as a ring of dough with a hole at its centre.

 

Define space for yourself. Unless you can define it then you have a floating concept. You have your concepts inverted, but if you define space then you will be amazed at your new found understanding and can stop bothering me with doughnuts. Unless you want to buy me a doughnut and then you can bother me then :-)

 

Only if something is expanding, but then some things contract. I have a perfect example hanging between my legs :-) that's probably too much information, but it might focus you on space in order to avoid the image. :-)

 

It would be chaotic if you had no perceptual integration and your senses just poured neat sensations into your head. You could not then seperate carrot from celery. If you were unconscious you would have no sense of anything.

 

The point you are actually beginning to make with your carrots, bowl and soup is for the primacy of existence, which, I'm not sure that you previously accepted ? I might be wrong,mI know you didn't accept the lack of conceptual abstracts for animals"

 

Anyway, define 'space' genus, differentia, stated in the positive and free of logical fallacies. If you haven't ever attempted it, then it will be a mind blowing experience which will make your head ache. I can help you formulate if you don't know the exact rules on fundamentals, equivalence, circularity, negatives, obscurity.

 

That's if you up for it. Might take a few attempts. Try not to use the dictionary, it's not always accurate anyway. Your own definition is like building your own house, it's hard, but the experience improves you abilities and cognitive skills.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Karl

[Stosh]

Space- is a poorly, as of yet described material within which ,those irregularities may occur ,which we call forces and matter.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"You are referring to man made things."

-----

 

Applies to anything.

 

A day.

 

A storm.

 

All phenomena that begin, will end.

 

If the universe is a thing, it began.

 

If the universe is nothing, then it is beginningless and endless.

 

 

 

 

 

- VonKrankenhaus

[Karl]

Space- is a poorly, as of yet described material within which ,those irregularities may occur ,which we call forces and matter.

So you haven't yet got a definition. It's just a word backed by nothing but fog.

Are you entirely certain you can point to space ? Try thinking of all the examples you can where space is used in a sentence and see if you can categorise by pulling the essence out of each.

 

I like the milk marketing boards equivocation "we put cows in space"

 

We refer to things as inner and outer space. We say we need space to grow, space to think, space to breath, space craft, space ship, space men, crawl space, space bar, spacious, spacing, spatial, public space, private space, open space etc

 

Is it a material ? Do any of those description lead you to think it might be of the genus 'material' ? I mean we talk of space between atoms, we have space under water, in a virtual vacuum, in air or in a solid, or any other gas. Do we need then to consider the material aspects of the concept ?

 

Try and be specific.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Karl

[Karl]

Re:

-----

"You are referring to man made things."

-----

 

Applies to anything.

 

A day.

 

A storm.

 

All phenomena that begin, will end.

 

If the universe is a thing, it began.

 

If the universe is nothing, then it is beginningless and endless.

 

 

 

 

 

- VonKrankenhaus

 

specifically a day is mans description of a natural event. A day is just a turn of the earth into daylight. We call it a day 24 hrs and we call the dark part night, though it's encapsulated in the 24 hrs. However it's just revolving mass and energy. One day the Earth will be burned up, or fly apart, but the Sun, the components of the planet will continue on.

 

A storm isn't man made but again it's a description of rapid air movements caused by gravity, mass, temperature, pressure etc. The energy creating them is conserved. These things are all universal.

 

The universe is ALL things ever. It is the sum total of everything. It contains everything there has ever been and all there ever will be. The universe has the identity 'the universe' but it is the sum of all identies within it. It is something not no-thing.

 

It is begin less and endless because it is a thing, it is all things.

[Nungali]

Someone suggested a book to read about my thread. Is there a good book?

 

Maybe they meant a book to read while Karl ' describes things'  in your thread ....   to pass the time .

 

Or maybe they mean your thread should become a book ;

 

" Dr Karl describes things and sets boundaries .'    

 

http://drkarl.com/

[Stosh]

So you haven't yet got a definition. It's just a word backed by nothing but fog.

Are you entirely certain you can point to space ? Try thinking of all the examples you can where space is used in a sentence and see if you can categorise by pulling the essence out of each.

 

I like the milk marketing boards equivocation "we put cows in space"

 

We refer to things as inner and outer space. We say we need space to grow, space to think, space to breath, space craft, space ship, space men, crawl space, space bar, spacious, spacing, spatial, public space, private space, open space etc

 

Is it a material ? Do any of those description lead you to think it might be of the genus 'material' ? I mean we talk of space between atoms, we have space under water, in a virtual vacuum, in air or in a solid, or any other gas. Do we need then to consider the material aspects of the concept ?

 

Try and be specific.

No Sir, I played it straight up,   Yes I can point to space, I can measure it , I can describe its properties, such as it can propagate light, it can be bent, and so forth. It can indeed - in its homogenous or pure form be in-between atoms , but you need to understand that atoms are not actually circular little pebbles with other little pebbles flying around in it. They are wave forms of a type that space can propagate, as are all particles , and energies.

Like I said , its the inconsistencies in it, that we call 'stuff ' , like the waves on an ocean or a whirlpool are just gyrations of that same water stuff , which on an even tinier scale is, you guessed it, waveforms in the material of space.  Beyond the limits of space , there's just nothing, no rules , no matter ,no time ,nor properties of anything. Its just zippo. Sorry you dont like the answer but I dont feel like bullshitting you on this matter. Its actually a really interesting material which will eventually be critical to understand to expand mans horizons. 

Oh and may I remind you that mass may be converted into energy, equally , energy may be converted into space and that sir ,makes for one big Bang! 

Edited May 27, 2016 by Stosh

[Karl]

No Sir, I played it straight up,   Yes I can point to space, I can measure it , I can describe its properties, such as it can propagate light, it can be bent, and so forth. It can indeed - in its homogenous or pure form be in-between atoms , but you need to understand that atoms are not actually circular little pebbles with other little pebbles flying around in it. They are wave forms of a type that space can propagate, as are all particles , and energies.

Like I said , its the inconsistencies in it, that we call 'stuff ' , like the waves on an ocean or a whirlpool are just gyrations of that same water stuff , which on an even tinier scale is, you guessed it, waveforms in the material of space.  Beyond the limits of space , there's just nothing, no rules , no matter ,no time ,nor properties of anything. Its just zippo. Sorry you dont like the answer but I dont feel like bullshitting you on this matter. Its actually a really interesting material which will eventually be critical to understand to expand mans horizons. 

 

I don't presume anything about atoms. You aren't defining space, you are describing properties of things in relation to other things. Causality.

 

Many materials can propagate light and can be bent, so that isn't specific to 'space'

 

You said beyond the limits of space. Can you define those limits.

 

The answer is yours to define to your own satisfaction not mine. It's not really important that you have the right definition, but if you are using a concept without having defined it then how can you possibly integrate anything succesfully ? You can update the definition if new information becomes available, but, what right now is your definition.

 

I can give my definition, it doesn't mean it's going to be a correct, but I have one and it's as clear as 1 + 1 = 2

 

If you think how you use the words, I would try not to go scientific, be basic or you will lose the thread of the definition. What do you mean when you say I like the open space, or I'm in a crawl space, or I'm in outer space ?

 

I don't want to labour this or I'm going to piss everyone off even more than normal. So I don't expect any reply. It's an exercise.

 

 

[Stosh]

No Im not describing causality. Im describing for perhaps the third time in this thread, what space is ,just as you asked.

Technically what folks discern as empty space , by ordinary vernacular, is just minimally disturbed space. Theres some light propagating, some gravity , maybe some ripples that get called cosmic particles yadda yadda. The stuff folks say is solid, is just more disturbed, its mostly empy space too then theres th ripples called ionic or molecular bonds, and the ripples called atoms and the even lower level ripples called gluons and gravitons etc. Outer space is an ocean of the stuff.

Thats why light excites atoms , particles pull on one another , the atomic possibilities are delineated or predetermined , and so on. Not all stuff must have the property of mass, nor does it all form solids... theres no reason not to consider space itself as a material or substance,, quite the reverse, considering it as a material allows it to be examined and removes the needless blabbering which you expected because youve heard it elsewhere. You were primed for confused nonsense. But you dont have to suffer it , because Im telling you correctly what it is.

[Stosh]

The limit of space is measurable from inside. Inside rules apply like distance and time, outside beyond is undefined zippo. Its the properties of the stuff that permit that which goes on ,like umm solid forms must be three dimensional because space itself is. We dont have two dimensional objects here. Our space doesnt support such structures. As fas as excercises go.. you balked at the first!

Yeah I know how to use vernacular speech and use it myself. But that doesnt mean I think the vernacular use reflects the true state of the universe. The table is solid, made actually of atoms and empty space ... which is actually configurations of the material that is space itself.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Stosh