Eliphas Levi

[Nungali]

She ran off with the Butler  .  

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Someone might wonder where this thread has gone also.

For those who had missed my contributions, they may be pleased to know that I will be returning to post more and to examine:
 

Some consideration of post Crowley neo-magical theory might also be in order, but I did not even think about that in my first reply since I was focusing on Levi, and not the full scope of neo-magical theory.

Part of the reason for this is that someone did actually PM me about this thread and we had a short discussion which got me thinking more about neo-magic and my own development and the particular importance of this:
 

I studied the theory of neo-magic in what is probably the best textbook of the classical, that is pre-Crowley, version of neo-magical theory, The Tarot, a Contemporary course in the Quintessence of Hermetic Occultism, by Mouni Sadhu

to my eventual understand of the Golden Dawn

and that it is basically an understanding of how magic was conceived pre-Crowley and thus magic as understood by the founders of the Golden Dawn, among other things it should be remembered that Mathers spent most of his time in Paris and that Papus was a member of the Paris temple of the Golden Dawn. Curiously Regardie's Golden Dawn, is one of the handful of Anglo-occultism books to make it into Sadhu's Bibliography. This pre-Crowley understanding would also help with understanding Dion Fortune, or any other Occult author writing in the late Nineteenth or early Twentieth Centuries. For those who don't already have a copy or would like a nice study copy which they can mark up and make a mess of, a PDF version can be downloaded from here:

Sadhu's Tarot in PDF

I will repeat that this is, very purposefully, not an easy book to understand, but if you want to really understand the Golden Dawn as the founders and high ranking members did, this is the book.  I should note that Sadhu uses the Continental system of the Tarot cards following Levi and with his attributions of Planets and Zodiac signs to them arrives at a different set of meanings ascribed to them then the Golden Dawn.   I may expand upon this at some point, but it is not germane now.

The Golden Dawn's teachings are literally the high point of neo-magical theory and practice and they were and remain important to me for reasons which I hope to discuss here, as well as the contribution of Aleister Crowley to neo-magical theory. Crowley's prolific output makes him probably the single most influential author on Neo-magic, or magick, as he preferred, than any other, and he did make some contributions to the post 1900 version of neo-magical theory which were very influential and continue to be. In my opinion they were not good and I will examine these issues shortly, unless there is serious objection from the OP.

[Aetherous]

The thread must flow! 

[Taoist Texts]

317-319 AD, May 23 CT. 9.16.3 – Emp. Constantine I.

 

Magicians and such who use their art against the minds of men are guilty and shall be punished; however, to use this art for good, to seek favorable weather during harvest for example, is allowable under the law.

 

[from my current translation job;)]

[Aetherous]

Donald...now that you mention Papus, I recently learned of his Tarot of the Bohemians.

I want to make clear what I meant by "the thread must flow" - it's great to branch off from Eliphas Levi, because it still pertains to grasping the history and changes of the Western magical traditions. This in my opinion is one of the most useful threads in this subsection, thanks to your contributions.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Thanks for the clarification, that is what I more or less thought.  More about Papus and the French school of Occultism in a bit, first we need a little review general history.
 
One of the important things to bear in mind with neo-magical theory is the extent to which the beginnings of the magical revival corresponded to the development of Romanticism. Romanticism itself has beginnings as early as the late Eighteenth Century, in Philosophy with Rousseau and in the arts and literature with the Sturm and Drang movement. Toward the end of the Eighteenth Century these movements, which were more rebellions against the restraint of neo-classicism became fused with a growing dissatisfaction with the “scientific materialism” being loudly put forward by the Evangelical Atheists of “D'Holbach's Coterie”.  Circa 1800 a group of philosophical thinkers hijacked Kant's philosophy and basically created a movement that conflated reason and logical thinking with materialism and encouraged both anti-rationalism and anti-intellectualism, though at the same time creating a type of approach to spiritual phenomena which I call “spiritual empiricism”, which is in some ways an imitation of “scientific empiricism”.
 
It is under the Aegis of Romanticism and its descendants that the Magical Revival and the "Journey to the East”  were undertaken, and the whole of modern “mysticism and magic” is more or less tinged by Romanticism, which of course includes the Dao Bums.
 
At least a little familiarity with Romanticism is a good thing, you may even see aspects of yourself there.  This cite is a good beginning point because it separates out important themes that are fundamental to Romanticism:
 
Thematic Analysis of Romanticism
 
The Wikipedia article covers this in more detail, but having the thematic guide of the previous site is useful:
 
Romanticism Article on Wikipedia
 
The intellectual, artistic, social and spiritual descendants of Romanticism are a diverse bunch, with Nazi and Hippies being distant cousins, just like Jerry Lee Lewis and Jimmy Swaggart are cousins, though you couldn't tell it from anything other then their family trees.
 
As the Nineteenth Century developed there was a tendency, following the influence of Hegel, to want to reconcile opposites, thus was born the wish to reconcile magic and mysticism with science.  This tendency has already been observed in the wish to model older magic on mesmerism, but is also alive today, though mesmerism plays little part, having been replaced by Jungian psychology.  In my own opinion magic has not benefited by these attempts to reconcile it with science, in part because they have not understood magic on its own terms, nor did they have the view of science that we have today.  Generally these attempts have resulted in a diminution of magic as the "Archetypes in the Mind of God" have become the mere archetypes of the collective unconscious.  The extreme was reached a little after 1900 when in the mind of one man, magic became mere neurology.  That man's name was Edward Alexander Crowley, whose non de plume, was Aleister Crowley.  I will cover more about him and the French schools in the next few posts.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Spelling

Edited April 26, 2016 by Zhongyongdaoist

[Michael Sternbach]

The extreme was reached a little after 1900 when in the mind of one man, magic became mere neurology.  That man's name was Edward Alexander Crowley, whose non de plume, was Aleister Crowley.  I will cover more about him and the French schools in the next few posts.

 

While it is true that Crowley adopted the "neurological view" of magic at some stage, later he went far beyond it. However, he did always advocate a rational and scientific approach to occultism, which I find very commendable.

 

https://books.google.ch/books?id=OFAMBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA517&lpg=PA517&dq=crowley+magic+neurology&source=bl&ots=B4GYjxWsrg&sig=tvWtnXTIQ2QnPo14Bddlpuiw_Y8&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA6d-476vMAhWLXRQKHcEbBPMQ6AEIQjAE#v=onepage&q=crowley%20magic%20neurology&f=false

[Nungali]

While it is true that Crowley adopted the "neurological view" of magic at some stage, later he went far beyond it. However, he did always advocate a rational and scientific approach to occultism, which I find very commendable.

 

https://books.google.ch/books?id=OFAMBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA517&lpg=PA517&dq=crowley+magic+neurology&source=bl&ots=B4GYjxWsrg&sig=tvWtnXTIQ2QnPo14Bddlpuiw_Y8&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA6d-476vMAhWLXRQKHcEbBPMQ6AEIQjAE#v=onepage&q=crowley magic neurology&f=false

 

While that  ^ could be considered true, as I read more (and perhaps in a more structured form ) , something important seems to be amiss.  ~ Aside from the issue of things like his totally irrational and unscientific  (IMO)  'proof' of the Book of the Law by the swapping of Hebrew letter attributions to the Tarot trumps    

 

Consider this 'course of background study ;

 

http://hermetic.com/crowley/book-4/app1.html   -   Course 1 .  General Reading

 

Includes things like :

 

The Yi King. (S.B.E. Series, Oxford University Press.) The "Classic of Changes"; gives the initiated Chinese system of Magick.

The Tao Teh King. (S.B.E. Series.) gives the initiated Chinese system of Mysticism.

Tannhauser, by A. Crowley. An allegorical drama concerning the Progress of the soul; the Tannhauser story slightly remodelled.

The Upanishads. (S.B.E. Series.) The Classical Basis of Vedantism, the best-known form of Hindu Mysticism.

The Bhagavad-Gita. A dialogue in which Krishna, the Hindu "Christ", expounds a system of Attainment.

The Voice of the Silence, by H. P. Blavatsky, with an elaborate commentary by Frater O. M.

The Goetia. The most intelligible of the mediaeval rituals of Evocation. Contains also the favorite Invocation of the Master Therion.

The Shiva Sanhita. A famous Hindu treatise on certain physical practices.

The Hathayoga Pradipika. Similar to The Shiva Sanhita.

* Erdmann's "History of Philosophy". A compendious account of philosophy from the earliest times. Most valuable as a general education of the mind.

...

The Oracles of Zoroaster. An invaluable collection of precepts mystical and magical.

The Dream of Scipio, by Cicero. Excellent for its Vision and its Philosophy.

The Golden Verses of Pythagoras, by Fabre d'Olivet. An interesting study of the exoteric doctrines of this Master.

The Divine Pymander, by Hermes Trismegistus. Invaluable as bearing on the Gnostic Philosophy.

...

The Age of Reason, by Thomas Paine. Excellent, though elementary, as a corrective to superstition.

Rivers of Life, by General Forlong. An invaluable text-book of old systems of initiation.

Three Dialogues, by Bishop Berkeley. The Classic of subjective idealism.

Essays of David Hume. The Classic of Academic Scepticism.

First Principles, by Herbert Spencer. The Classic of Agnosticism.

Prolegomena, by Emanuel Kant. The best introduction to Metaphysics.

The Canon. The best text-book of Applied Qabalah.

The Fourth Dimension, by H. Hinton. The text-book on this subject.

The Essays of Thomas Henry Huxley. Masterpieces of philosophy, as of prose.

 

( with the possible exception of  * Erdman )  .....  notice a major aspect missing ? 

 

Throughout the whole curriculum it seems very light on obvious Platonic writings. 

 

Some of the issues related to that are in this text example    https://books.google.com.au/books?id=zOJoAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=Aleister+crowley+on+platonism&source=bl&ots=7GiStIaUZz&sig=hXUl1Z_OnYSthXZh65so9-dfZuM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT47rQq63MAhVGHpQKHe-JDKAQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Aleister crowley on platonism&f=false

 

No doubt Donald will be forthcoming    to detail the further 'damage' .

Edited April 26, 2016 by Nungali

[Michael Sternbach]

While that  ^ could be considered true, as I read more (and perhaps in a more structured form ) , something important seems to be amiss.  ~ Aside from the issue of things like his totally irrational and unscientific  (IMO)  'proof' of the Book of the Law by the swapping of Hebrew letter attributions to the Tarot trumps    

 

Consider this 'course of background study ;

 http://hermetic.com/crowley/book-4/app1.html   -   Course 1 .  General Reading

 

Includes things like :

 The Yi King. (S.B.E. Series, Oxford University Press.) The "Classic of Changes"; gives the initiated Chinese system of Magick.The Tao Teh King. (S.B.E. Series.) gives the initiated Chinese system of Mysticism.Tannhauser, by A. Crowley. An allegorical drama concerning the Progress of the soul; the Tannhauser story slightly remodelled.The Upanishads. (S.B.E. Series.) The Classical Basis of Vedantism, the best-known form of Hindu Mysticism.The Bhagavad-Gita. A dialogue in which Krishna, the Hindu "Christ", expounds a system of Attainment.The Voice of the Silence, by H. P. Blavatsky, with an elaborate commentary by Frater O. M.The Goetia. The most intelligible of the mediaeval rituals of Evocation. Contains also the favorite Invocation of the Master Therion.The Shiva Sanhita. A famous Hindu treatise on certain physical practices.The Hathayoga Pradipika. Similar to The Shiva Sanhita.* Erdmann's "History of Philosophy". A compendious account of philosophy from the earliest times. Most valuable as a general education of the mind....The Oracles of Zoroaster. An invaluable collection of precepts mystical and magical.The Dream of Scipio, by Cicero. Excellent for its Vision and its Philosophy.The Golden Verses of Pythagoras, by Fabre d'Olivet. An interesting study of the exoteric doctrines of this Master.The Divine Pymander, by Hermes Trismegistus. Invaluable as bearing on the Gnostic Philosophy....The Age of Reason, by Thomas Paine. Excellent, though elementary, as a corrective to superstition.Rivers of Life, by General Forlong. An invaluable text-book of old systems of initiation.Three Dialogues, by Bishop Berkeley. The Classic of subjective idealism.Essays of David Hume. The Classic of Academic Scepticism.First Principles, by Herbert Spencer. The Classic of Agnosticism.Prolegomena, by Emanuel Kant. The best introduction to Metaphysics.The Canon. The best text-book of Applied Qabalah.The Fourth Dimension, by H. Hinton. The text-book on this subject.The Essays of Thomas Henry Huxley. Masterpieces of philosophy, as of prose.

 

( with the possible exception of  * Erdman )  .....  notice a major aspect missing ? 

 

Throughout the whole curriculum it seems very light on obvious Platonic writings. 

 

Some of the issues related to that are in this text example    https://books.google.com.au/books?id=zOJoAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=Aleister+crowley+on+platonism&source=bl&ots=7GiStIaUZz&sig=hXUl1Z_OnYSthXZh65so9-dfZuM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT47rQq63MAhVGHpQKHe-JDKAQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Aleister crowley on platonism&f=false

 

The text actually elaborates on the importance of Platonic thought for Crowley, even though he may not have fully acknowledged it. Also, he seems to have occasionally given it his own twist (the privilege of an artistic writer), such as in the reduction of the quaternity of the frenzies to a trinity, which is actually quite interesting in light of earlier conversations we have had, Nungers.

[Nungali]

I think it shows importance but divergence.  As far as the 'frenzies reduction'  goes ... yes, interesting and a source for further examination ....  but that is going deep down the hole.  

 

Perhaps we could discuss that later ? (And the whole issue that Jung did arise and how does 'all that'  actually fit into the tradition. )   For now I dont want to  disrupt Donald's   train of posts  (but for all I know, they may include this point ) .    

 

And besides ....   the Sun is up now and I got a hankering for some of those 'wild' eggs and home made wood smoked ham I got yesterday, for breakfast !  

[Zhongyongdaoist]

The author whom you cite Nungali, is prone the oddest observations:
 

Crowley was possibly alluding to the chariot as the figure for the human soul in the Phaedrus when he wrote in 1912, “Man is only himself when lost to himself in The Charioting.” (Aleister Crowley and Western Esotericism, p. 210)

 
The Platonic mythic image of the Soul as a Charioteer, seems a long way from "Steeped Horsehair":
 

STEEPED HORSEHAIR
 
Mind is a disease of semen.
All that a man is or may be is hidden therein.
Bodily functions are parts of the machine; silent, unless in dis-ease.
But mind, never at ease, creaketh "I".
This I persisteth not, posteth not through generations, changeth momently, finally is dead.
Therefore is man only himself when lost to himself in The Charioting.
 
[26]
 
COMMENTARY (Η)
Cheth is the Chariot in the Tarot. The Charioteer is the bearer of the Holy Grail. All this should be studied in Liber 418, the 12th Aethyr.
The chapter is called “Steeped Horsehair” because of the mediaeval tradition that by steeping horsehair a snake is produced, and the snake is the hieroglyphic representation of semen, particularly in Gnostic and Egyptian emblems.
The meaning of the chapter is quite clear; the whole race-consciousness, that which is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, is hidden therein.
Therefore, except in the case of an Adept, man only rises to a glimmer of the universal consciousness, while, in the orgasm, the mind is blotted out.  (Aleister Crowley, The Book of Lies, Hermetic.com)

 
Perhaps the author got there using Crowley's Energized Ethusiam?  Especially the parts about drug induced "enthusiasm".
 
Aside from which using ideas from about one page of Plato's Phaedrus does not a Platonist make, nor contrary to the author's observation does using a little technical vocabulary from Iamblichus make a Theurgist.
 
Now Plato puts these "frenzies" in their place in the Timaeus in a section beginning at 68c, where they are associated with the lower and mortal nature and in particular with the liver, and notes that such "frenzies" were not given to us for anything other than our weakness to act as a guide to those who had not gained noetic insight by opening "the eye of the soul", the third eye which Plato is credited with in antiquity.
 
By the way these references play perfectly into my argument that Crowley was in point of fact anti-rational and that the only thing involved in his "scientific illuminism" is what I call "spiritual empiricism" and not "spiritual science" which requires the use of reason.
 
 
 
 
P.S. I noticed that getting back to p. 210 seemed a little difficult when I tested the link, no problem, I took a screen shot of the original page if anyone has any difficulties getting there.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

The text actually elaborates on the importance of Platonic thought for Crowley, even though he may not have fully acknowledged it. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Had Crowley had any real concern for, much less understanding of, Platonic thought, he would have been far more concerned about this:

 

[247b] they proceed steeply upward to the top of the vault of heaven, where the chariots of the gods, whose well matched horses obey the rein, advance easily, but the others with difficulty; for the horse of evil nature weighs the chariot down, making it heavy and pulling toward the earth the charioteer whose horse is not well trained. There the utmost toil and struggle await the soul. For those that are called immortal, when they reach the top, [247c] pass outside and take their place on the outer surface of the heaven, and when they have taken their stand, the revolution carries them round and they behold the things outside of the heaven. But the region above the heaven was never worthily sung by any earthly poet, nor will it ever be. It is, however, as I shall tell; for I must dare to speak the truth, especially as truth is my theme. For the colorless, formless, and intangible truly existing essence, with which all true knowledge is concerned, holds this region [247d] and is visible only to the mind, the pilot of the soul. Now the divine intelligence, since it is nurtured on mind and pure knowledge, and the intelligence of every soul which is capable of receiving that which befits it, rejoices in seeing reality for a space of time and by gazing upon truth is nourished and made happy until the revolution brings it again to the same place. In the revolution it beholds absolute justice, temperance, and knowledge, not such knowledge as has a beginning and varies as it is associated with one [247e] or another of the things we call realities, but that which abides in the real eternal absolute; and in the same way it beholds and feeds upon the other eternal verities, after which, passing down again within the heaven, it goes home, and there the charioteer puts up the horses at the manger and feeds them with ambrosia and then gives them nectar to drink. Such is the life of the gods; . . .  (Plato Phaedrus, 247b to 247e, Perseus Digital Library)

 

And this:

 

[249b] . . . a human being must understand a general conception formed by collecting into a unity [249c] by means of reason the many perceptions of the sensesnd this is a recollection of those things which our soul once beheld, when it journeyed with God and, lifting its vision above the things which we now say exist, rose up into real being. And therefore it is just that the mind of the philosopher only has wings, for he is always, so far as he is able, in communion through memory with those things the communion with which causes God to be divine. Now a man who employs such memories rightly is always being initiated into perfect mysteries and he alone becomes truly perfect; [249d] but since he separates himself from human interests and turns his attention toward the divine, he is rebuked by the vulgar, who consider him mad and do not know that he is inspired. (Plato, Phaedrus, 249b to 249d, Perseus Digital Library)

 

Which are the true levels of Divine Inspiration, rather then then levels of the “frenzies”, which are purely the “Daimonic” levels, at best the beginning, but certainly not the end of the Philosophic Ascent.  Some idea of the different levels of this ascent and it relation to Theurgy and the spiritual Hierarchy can be gleaned from Iamblichus, Theurgia  or on the Mysteries of Egypt, who examines it in considerable detail.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Added "or" to the Title of ". . . on the Mysteries . . ."

 

Edit: Added the link to the Wikipedia article "Daemon", since many people reading here might not understand the original meaning or how it developed in the Hellenistic age and that it has next to nothing to do with a "demon".

Edited April 27, 2016 by Zhongyongdaoist

[RigdzinTrinley]

I am not more then a dabbler when it comes to western occultism. I was just wondering what people think of Isreal Regardie and Dr. Hyatt?

 

I really like those two - they strike a specific cord in my being, and I feel their overall approach to the western hermetic arts is very much of a tantric nature. So it is very easy for me to follow them specially when it comes to the way they explain the general approach or path of magic. Now the books I read do not go too deep into the underlying philosophy, they are much more practice oriented I would say - Isreal Regardies "complete magical system of the G.D." deals a little with philosophy as well, but I am sure reading the classics will be a much deeper and intellectually satisfying experience (one problem is that I have a lot of intellectually satisfying deep study to do in another lineage and tradition - hence not sooooo much time - I saomehow focus on getting a general grip on things for now, and for that are Mr.Regardie and Mr.Hyatt a good start? Crowley talks sometimes a bit to big and I can't follow the man - me being a mere beginner in these studies)

 

I would just like to hear some reflections of people like Donald and Nungali etc. who worked with western esoteric teachings on a deep level - what they think about these two, are they a good start? - and I guess it has to do with eliphas levi on a certain level as well, if you trace a lineage (eastern people love lineages ) then I think one could trace it somehow through F. Barrett -> Eliphas Levi, the G.D. founding members, Crowley - Regardie and Hyatt no?

 

If this is too much off topic for Aetherous and of no real concern for this discussion and where ZYD is taking it, then please forget about it, I can always PM these two gentleman

Edited April 28, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[Michael Sternbach]

I am not more then a dabbler when it comes to western occultism. I was just wondering what people think of Isreal Regardie and Dr. Hyatt?

 

I really like those two - they strike a specific cord in my being, and I feel their overall approach to the western hermetic arts is very much of a tantric nature. So it is very easy for me to follow them specially when it comes to the way they explain the general approach or path of magic. Now the books I read do not go too deep into the underlying philosophy, they are much more practice oriented I would say - Isreal Regardies "complete magical system of the G.D." deals a little with philosophy as well, but I am sure reading the classics will be a much deeper and intellectually satisfying experience (one problem is that I have a lot of intellectually satisfying deep study to do in another lineage and tradition - hence not sooooo much time - I saomehow focus on getting a general grip on things for now, and for that are Mr.Regardie and Mr.Hyatt a good start? Crowley talks sometimes a bit to big and I can't follow the man - me being a mere beginner in these studies)

 

Regardie is an excellent guide to Hermeticism and the Kabbalah, especially in their more modern Western form. I sort of resonate with him not least because he was a therapist too. A Garden of Pomegranates and The Middle Pillar are very recommendable reads, even though it should be mentioned that Regardie was more of a practitioner than a theoreticist, all in all.

 

If you are interested in metaphysical foundations, you best dive right into the old classics like the Sepher Yetzirah, the Corpus Hermeticum, and Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy (the latter has a subforum in the occult section, btw - alas, the associated study group didn't take it very far; maybe it could be revived?). All the later Hermeticists as well as Theosophists etc drew from those sources.

 

For a historic perspective, I particularly recommend Frances A. Yates' Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition.

 

I would just like to hear some reflections of people like Donald and Nungali etc. who worked with western esoteric teachings on a deep level - what they think about these two, are they a good start? - and I guess it has to do with eliphas levi on a certain level as well, if you trace a lineage (eastern people love lineages ) then I think one could trace it somehow through F. Barrett -> Eliphas Levi, the G.D. founding members, Crowley - Regardie and Hyatt no?

 

If this is too much off topic for Aetherous and of no real concern for this discussion and where ZYD is taking it, then please forget about it, I can always PM these two gentleman

 

Cough, cough... Additionally, you can always talk to your now "official" and ever supportive Tarot teacher.

 

As for where ZYD is taking this thread, well, he already declared his intention to once again warn us all of the evils of Aleister Crowley. I understand that, after initial enthusiasm, he felt sort of led astray by him. However, The Book of Thoth can hardly be overrated in its importance for Tarot, and I value some of his other wrtings as well. I just wish that an occultist as knowledgeable as Donald wouldn't dedicate what time he has got for rants against a spiritual teachers who, whatever weaknesses he may have had, enriched the lifes of many by his contributions. It is a widespread inclination, to be sure...

[Nungali]

I am not more then a dabbler when it comes to western occultism. I was just wondering what people think of Isreal Regardie and Dr. Hyatt?

 

I really like those two - they strike a specific cord in my being, and I feel their overall approach to the western hermetic arts is very much of a tantric nature. So it is very easy for me to follow them specially when it comes to the way they explain the general approach or path of magic. Now the books I read do not go too deep into the underlying philosophy, they are much more practice oriented I would say - Isreal Regardies "complete magical system of the G.D." deals a little with philosophy as well, but I am sure reading the classics will be a much deeper and intellectually satisfying experience (one problem is that I have a lot of intellectually satisfying deep study to do in another lineage and tradition - hence not sooooo much time - I saomehow focus on getting a general grip on things for now, and for that are Mr.Regardie and Mr.Hyatt a good start? Crowley talks sometimes a bit to big and I can't follow the man - me being a mere beginner in these studies)

 

I would just like to hear some reflections of people like Donald and Nungali etc. who worked with western esoteric teachings on a deep level - what they think about these two, are they a good start? - and I guess it has to do with eliphas levi on a certain level as well, if you trace a lineage (eastern people love lineages ) then I think one could trace it somehow through F. Barrett -> Eliphas Levi, the G.D. founding members, Crowley - Regardie and Hyatt no?

 

If this is too much off topic for Aetherous and of no real concern for this discussion and where ZYD is taking it, then please forget about it, I can always PM these two gentleman

 

 

Briefly ;  I am a big IR fan ... the mix of magic and psychology, for me, is the best approach .  And this isnt because I put any Freudian or Jungian  hypothesis/philosophy over the top of magic, but because magic, without a different regulator of some sort , is prone to lead many 'out from the centre'   ( towards; insanity, obsession, fanaticism,  inability to deal with the physical plane and/or addiction to gossip and incurable idleness)  . Also, I feel the study of a multi-disciplined approach of psychology is important too ... by 'psychology' I include anything like Jung, Swedenborg, etc  (it does not have to be 'scientific' or 'materialist') as it is part of the 'prime directive'  ;  'Know Thyself'   ( that is also why I am into Anthropology ) .

 

Hyatt ?   I have never been much of a fan, dont know why I found what I did read of him rather boring.  I put him in with the others - not just 'magical writers'  but somewhat pop cult figures.

 

......   dont start me on DuQuette  !    

Edited April 28, 2016 by Nungali

[RigdzinTrinley]

Yes Sir.M and Sir.N - I like Regardies work very much so far. I think monstly because he was a therapist yes!

 

And I second Nungalis observation that you can go way off with magical discplines, also those of tibetan tantric buddhism (because the more I read of the western hermetic tradition the more I have to say that well tantriscm is "magical" in some aspects)

 

anyway - I stop to hi jack the thread now, promise and go back to the spectator seats

Edited April 30, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley