karmic implications of occult/magick

[Wilhelm]

Hello,

 

I had come across, and thoroughly enjoyed, an interview with Alan Chapman who had talked about using magick/occult practices not only as a path to enlightenment, but as a potential complement to other paths.  I have purchased his book 'Advanced Magick for beginners' and by chapter 3 he is introducing a simple sigil exercise to manifest a desire.  My intention at the moment is to use the tools found here purely for my own spiritual development, for example my first attempt may be something like 'I will become aware of an impediment to my spiritual growth and the means of its removal'

 

Before going any further with this I had done some looking into the implications of using the occult and found several references from Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev (as I do have some level of trust in him previously) and although I can give detailed sources if requested one quote which stands out from him is "Of all kinds of karma, using occult forces for one's own benefit or to the harm of others has the worst consequences for oneself".  Yet there exists entire traditions which use these forces, such as the author of the previously mentioned book, who supposedly used occult methods right up to achieving enlightenment (or as he calls it, the 'great work' of magick).  Elsewhere, Sadhguru talks about how karma is created by intent, not content of an action - so I am having a difficult time reconciling these two ideas.

 

Am I being foolish for using such tools for my own development?  Is the greatest danger coming from my overthinking the matter?  I just want to use every method at my disposal to progress spiritually, and this is the first time I have become so conflicted over whether or not to go forward with a tool.

 

I am thankful for the opportunity to post this question to a group that contains such a diverse group of practitioners.  Thank you for any assistance you are able to offer in this matter,

 

Wilhelm

[Cheshire Cat]

Before going any further with this I had done some looking into the implications of using the occult and found several references from Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev (as I do have some level of trust in him previously) and although I can give detailed sources if requested one quote which stands out from him is "Of all kinds of karma, using occult forces for one's own benefit or to the harm of others has the worst consequences for oneself". 

 

If you believe so, it'll be so.

[RiverSnake]

Whatever action you take, magical or mundane, just be true to yourself. When you align your actions/intent with your own inner truth then things naturally flow. 

[Cheshire Cat]

Whatever action you take, magical or mundane, just be true to yourself. When you align your actions/intent with your own inner truth then things naturally flow. 

 

What does "being true to yourself" mean in this particular case?

[Michael Sternbach]

What does "being true to yourself" mean in this particular case?

 

What is called wu wei in Daoism.

[thelerner]

Whatever action you take, magical or mundane, just be true to yourself. When you align your actions/intent with your own inner truth then things naturally flow. 

Should there be a modifier, ie be true to your best self? 

Or do you lose power by neglecting your shadowside?

[RiverSnake]

Should there be a modifier, ie be true to your best self? 

Or do you lose power by neglecting your shadowside?

The more divisions you make, the more complicated these things become. I like simple. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by OldChi

[Bearded Dragon]

There is no karmic buildup from actions alone. That is silly. Look at the effect within after an action then it will be obvious. Karma is not external to your own mind.

 

True self, best self, good, bad. It's all just a waste of time to think about it. If you leave your muddy shoes on the door mat then they'll be in the way. If you leave your clean shoes on the door mat then they'll also be in the way. It's rather simple. That was metaphoric in case it wasn't obvious.

[Wilhelm]

Well, that about settles it.  I'm comfortable with my intentions here, so I'm going forward with it.

 

Not sure where the second guessing came from a couple days ago, but I don't feel it now.  Thank you for indulging me with your responses.

[rex]

...

Edited March 22, 2016 by rex

[MrThuper]

I'm new here, so I don't know if my opinion counts.

 

Why would you want "external" help in order to deal with something about you?

[Wilhelm]

 

Why would you want "external" help in order to deal with something about you?

 

Same reason anyone does, I suppose. Was looking for an answer to a question and wasn't willing to dig deep enough to find out for myself at the time.

 

To be honest I might've associated an intellectual curiosity (karma and the occult) to my problem (being uncertain about what felt right at the time I was writing that post).  In any event, the good bums on this site seemed to know better than indulge in unproductive intellectual speculation, and I got over the problem the old-fashioned way.  

Edited March 26, 2016 by Wilhelm

[Taomeow]

I always ask the I Ching about such matters. 

 

If you have a trustworthy oracle, ask him or her.  Random people just share random opinions.  Ditto random books.  You might choose to go with the answer you want to hear, but there's no guarantee it's the right answer.

 

So, I propose finding a method that answers your questions accurately and testing it on something karmically neutral first for a while before moving on to questions about serious matters.  Not so much "propose" as just share my own approach.  

 

The I Ching is very conservative in this respect -- she does not disapprove or approve of "all" magical interventions, it's not an "all or nothing" situation, but she may disapprove of an intervention because, e.g., the timing is bad (she knows everything about Time), or for any number of reasons she sees and you don't.  There's auspicious and inauspicious days and hours, not just situations, and she may tell you "not now" and leave it at that -- in which case so should you, and later inquire again. She knows of the possible consequences, whether positive or negative or downright devastating for your "bigger picture," that you have no way of accessing and evaluating.  She does.  If you are going to cultivate a relationship with an oracle, she will share this inside information with you.  

[RiverSnake]

I always ask the I Ching about such matters. 

 

If you have a trustworthy oracle, ask him or her.  Random people just share random opinions.  Ditto random books.  You might choose to go with the answer you want to hear, but there's no guarantee it's the right answer.

 

So, I propose finding a method that answers your questions accurately and testing it on something karmically neutral first for a while before moving on to questions about serious matters.  Not so much "propose" as just share my own approach.  

 

The I Ching is very conservative in this respect -- she does not disapprove or approve of "all" magical interventions, it's not an "all or nothing" situation, but she may disapprove of an intervention because, e.g., the timing is bad (she knows everything about Time), or for any number of reasons she sees and you don't.  There's auspicious and inauspicious days and hours, not just situations, and she may tell you "not now" and leave it at that -- in which case so should you, and later inquire again. She knows of the possible consequences, whether positive or negative or downright devastating for your "bigger picture," that you have no way of accessing and evaluating.  She does.  If you are going to cultivate a relationship with an oracle, she will share this inside information with you.  

 

Five star post. Divination is a skill well worth cultivating.  

[Michael Sternbach]

I always ask the I Ching about such matters. 

 

If you have a trustworthy oracle, ask him or her.  Random people just share random opinions.  Ditto random books.  You might choose to go with the answer you want to hear, but there's no guarantee it's the right answer.

 

So, I propose finding a method that answers your questions accurately and testing it on something karmically neutral first for a while before moving on to questions about serious matters.  Not so much "propose" as just share my own approach.  

 

The I Ching is very conservative in this respect -- she does not disapprove or approve of "all" magical interventions, it's not an "all or nothing" situation, but she may disapprove of an intervention because, e.g., the timing is bad (she knows everything about Time), or for any number of reasons she sees and you don't.  There's auspicious and inauspicious days and hours, not just situations, and she may tell you "not now" and leave it at that -- in which case so should you, and later inquire again. She knows of the possible consequences, whether positive or negative or downright devastating for your "bigger picture," that you have no way of accessing and evaluating.  She does.  If you are going to cultivate a relationship with an oracle, she will share this inside information with you.  

 

Nice post. One's intuition can guide one without the necessity for an intermediary though, but using one can be helpful sometimes.

 

I am not sure why the I Ching would be a "she" and not an "it", but if that's your perception of it, uhm, her...

[Aetherous]

I am not sure why the I Ching would be a "she" and not an "it", but if that's your perception of it, uhm, her...

 

Seems just a personal preference to consider it as such. Also, a personal preference to think of it as being less random than the counsel of various books or people. Throwing coins or yarrow stalks is very close to the definition of random, whereas the opinions of people are at least founded upon reasoning and their experience, and choosing which ones to listen to based on your own capacities is even less random.

[Michael Sternbach]

Seems just a personal preference to consider it as such. Also, a personal preference to think of it as being less random than the counsel of various books or people. Throwing coins or yarrow stalks is very close to the definition of random, whereas the opinions of people are at least founded upon reasoning and their experience, and choosing which ones to listen to based on your own capacities is even less random.

 

However, the reasoning mind has limitations that don't apply to intuition. Using the I Ching or similar methods is simply a way to access one's intuition in an objectified manner.

[Taomeow]

 

Nice post. One's intuition can guide one without the necessity for an intermediary though, but using one can be helpful sometimes.

 

I am not sure why the I Ching would be a "she" and not an "it", but if that's your perception of it, uhm, her...

 

Two reasons, Michael --

 

64 is a yin number, and

 

I have been hearing a distinctly female voice when talking to the I Ching for many years.  There's no "person" there, but the 'friend and mentor" I hear is female.  I don't know about others -- they may "hear" a male voice, or a voice without a gender-specific timbre, or none at all.   

[MrThuper]

Hmmm, I can't help but think that when one is looking at outside influence and or advice, they put aside their own capacity for choice. Not to mention they hold in a lesser regard their own capacity for rational thought.

[Taomeow]

Hmmm, I can't help but think that when one is looking at outside influence and or advice, they put aside their own capacity for choice. Not to mention they hold in a lesser regard their own capacity for rational thought.

 

 

  "When a man no longer has any conception of excellence above his own, his way is done, he his dead."

Edited March 27, 2016 by Taomeow

[roger]

Wilhelm,

 

Using magick "for one's own benefit" and using it "to harm others" are two completely different things.

 

I personally see nothing wrong with using it to manifest a desire or grow spiritually.

 

But using it to harm others is both immoral and very dangerous to both oneself and others in my opinion.

[RiverSnake]

Wilhelm,

 

Using magick "for one's own benefit" and using it "to harm others" are two completely different things.

 

I personally see nothing wrong with using it to manifest a desire or grow spiritually.

 

But using it to harm others is both immoral and very dangerous to both oneself and others in my opinion.

 

You may want to leave the kindergarden logic at the door. Do not take for granted how complicated these things can become once you get deep into them.

[Aetherous]

We have a limited perspective, as human beings. What we desire for ourselves doesn't take all things into account...perhaps what we want now is actually harmful to us in the long run. Perhaps getting what we want degrades our character, which means that others are treated poorly by us later. Also, it might be very painful to get what we want, magically...because the checks and balances have to be taken into account, and so everything has its cost. "Be careful what you wish for" is a pertinent saying...you ask for a million dollars, but then maybe your loved one dies for you to inherit their money.

What magical beings' ears perk up when you request to manifest something? Some are good and want to help you, some are bad and want to harm you.

Or maybe benefiting oneself magically is harmless, and no fear is necessary. Only personal experience over a long time can tell us what's true.

[RiverSnake]

Only personal experience over a long time can tell us what's true.

 

Personal experience being the operative words.

[Meijin]

Magick is intent.

 

The problem with this is muddy intent.  If you've done much mindfulness meditation you'll probably know that you are a mess.  You have conditioning (in Vedantic terms, Vasanas) that you don't control. 

 

So you do magick, and you intend to get something, but often the mind is not focused down to just that one thing. Desires, fears, emotions intrude.

 

So, if you must do magick, job 1 is getting to just that one thing.  There are those better to give advice on how to do this than I, I try to avoid magick.

 

Also note that you may not know what's good for you.  This current intent seems fine, but...

 

The next thing, and Chapman covers this in his book, is to be VERY careful in dealing with entities.  If you must deal with them at all, know who you are invoking, and why.  The same "muddy motivations" stuff applies.  Benevolence, benevolence, benevolence.

 

Relationships with the wrong entities, or of the wrong kind with any entity can really really mess you up.  This is not theoretical. You may not believe in such things, but really, be careful here. I was careless many years ago (indiscrimant asking for help) and I am still paying the price.  This stuff can mess you up for lifetimes.

 

Back to magick, for an anecdote.  A couple years ago I wound up in a teaching relationship (but not guru relationship) with a Tantric Shaivite, who also had a lot of experience with western magick.

 

My life was not good, and I commented to him one day "you know I just realized that I never do ritual work to ask for anything for myself." 

 

I was hoping he would say "go for it".

 

Instead he said "and that's one reason why, despite your terrible karma, you're still alive."

 

So.  Careful with this stuff. Magick is real, entities are real (the two are not identical) and you can super mess yourself up.