karmic implications of occult/magick

[doc benway]

Hello,

 

I had come across, and thoroughly enjoyed, an interview with Alan Chapman who had talked about using magick/occult practices not only as a path to enlightenment, but as a potential complement to other paths.  I have purchased his book 'Advanced Magick for beginners' and by chapter 3 he is introducing a simple sigil exercise to manifest a desire.  My intention at the moment is to use the tools found here purely for my own spiritual development, for example my first attempt may be something like 'I will become aware of an impediment to my spiritual growth and the means of its removal'

 

Before going any further with this I had done some looking into the implications of using the occult and found several references from Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev (as I do have some level of trust in him previously) and although I can give detailed sources if requested one quote which stands out from him is "Of all kinds of karma, using occult forces for one's own benefit or to the harm of others has the worst consequences for oneself".  Yet there exists entire traditions which use these forces, such as the author of the previously mentioned book, who supposedly used occult methods right up to achieving enlightenment (or as he calls it, the 'great work' of magick).  Elsewhere, Sadhguru talks about how karma is created by intent, not content of an action - so I am having a difficult time reconciling these two ideas.

 

Am I being foolish for using such tools for my own development?  Is the greatest danger coming from my overthinking the matter?  I just want to use every method at my disposal to progress spiritually, and this is the first time I have become so conflicted over whether or not to go forward with a tool.

 

I am thankful for the opportunity to post this question to a group that contains such a diverse group of practitioners.  Thank you for any assistance you are able to offer in this matter,

 

Wilhelm

First, I think it is important to follow your intuition on this. If you are feeling conflicted, pay attention to that. I don't mean so much that you should analyze it intellectually but notice and respect that feeling of inner conflict and apprehension. Allow yourself to be with that feeling - open to it and listen to what it is saying to you. It is very easy for the intellect to drown out these subtle messages which I look at as a deeper, inner guidance. It is easy to rationalize those messages away in order to pursue our hunger for power or accomplishment. 

 

The spiritual path is one of the subtle, not one of power, in my opinion. Whether or not to use magick as a tool depends on your objective. As you mention, it is an excellent tool to manifest desire. On the other hand, the spiritual path is one which shows us that this very desire is a manifestation of ignorance, it reinforces our confusion and takes us off the path of spiritual growth. Through connecting with the subtle, inner teacher, power will manifest. In pursuit of power explicitly, based on the desires of the ego, we are much more likely to veer off course and amass karmic consequences. 

 

The question of whether karma is related to the intent or outcome of our actions is a tricky one. While I agree that the intent is a critical pieced of the puzzle, you cannot simply ignore consequences of our actions. In part, this is because we are rarely fully in touch with the deepest levels of our intention. It takes a lot of self discovery to realize our deepest values and motivation and to abandon those which misguide us. Furthermore, intent itself is an extremely complex thing. There are many aspects to the intention behind even simple actions. And most of those intentions are related to desire or aversion, both of which arise from fundamental ignorance. This is why the Mahayana approach in Buddhism focuses on dedicating our actions to the benefit of others. 

 

Karma is extraordinarily complex. By definition it means action, it does not mean intent. Certainly if we have genuinely pure intent and there is an accidental, unavoidable negative result, the consequences are less likely to be negative for us. However, it is extremely rare to find someone who has perfectly pure intent, therefore negative results of our actions are quite likely to lead to the generation of negative karmic traces. For example, let's say you chose to do something for a completely noble reason. And then let's say through a completely unexpected chain of unavoidable events. that initial action resulted in the death of a child. How likely is it that the child's death would have no negative affect on you? Your intent was pure but that child is dead and its family will never be the same. Imagine that they are neighbors, friends, or relatives. 

 

A deep investigation into karma not only shows us that our actions (and intent) have consequences but that the nature of those actions and intent determine how those consequences will affect us, and others. But it's not only the immediately obvious and simple connections that we can see and anticipate that have bearing on the outcome of our actions. Every living being is inter-related in some way with every other living being. Reality is a unified, non-dual inter-relationship, it is not a collection of separate, independent things. So the results of any action have so many subtle ramifications that they are impossible to anticipate accurately. This is why we often see bad things happening to good people and vice versa. We can only see a small part of the puzzle over a short period of time. 

 

I'm not saying that you should not pursue magick. I do think it is important, however, to look carefully at what it is you are looking to get out of it. If it is spiritual growth you are looking for, I'm not sure that is your best approach. Finally, I know very little of the workings of magick so please take everything I say about it with a grain of salt.

 

Good luck to you!

[RiverSnake]

I would disagree with you on 3 accounts Steve:

 

1. While the spiritual path is not exclusively focused on power, its a big part.

2. Desire can be a very powerful tool for growth if handled in the correct manner.

 

3. Manifestation is a lot of fun, we as human beings are a manifestation. I do not view enlightenment as meaning you choose to completely abandon physical reality and float away in celestial lala land. But more along the lines that you are completely at one with yourself and the flow of existence....heaven/earth and all other divisions....you can come and go as you please....manifestation to un-manifestation...it's all groovy.

 

Just my thoughts as of now, they may change in the future.

Edited April 2, 2016 by OldChi

[doc benway]

I would disagree with you on 3 accounts Steve:

Thanks for your comments 

 

 

1. While the spiritual path is not exclusively focused on power, its a big part.

I don't disagree, I am more concerned with our definition of power and means to achieve it as I stated - "Through connecting with the subtle, inner teacher, power will manifest. In pursuit of power explicitly, based on the desires of the ego, we are much more likely to veer off course and amass karmic consequences. "

 

 

2. Desire can be a very powerful tool for growth if handled in the correct manner.

Yes, you are correct here. In the beginning stages, how would we ever want to change the status quo if there were no desire to do so? Desire is related to hope and both are very helpful along that path. Same thing with fear and aversion. It is a slippery slope, however, because the very nature of desire and aversion are a manifestation of what it is we need to overcome in our spiritual growth. At some point, we must recognize this and let both go. Until then, as you say they are useful tools. It is simply important early on to recognize them as tools that have limited utility.

 

 

3. Manifestation is a lot of fun, we as human beings are a manifestation. I do not view enlightenment as meaning you choose to completely abandon physical reality and float away in celestial lala land. But more along the lines that you are completely at one with yourself and the flow of existence....heaven/earth and all other divisions....you can come and go as you please....manifestation to un-manifestation...it doesn't phase you.

I agree with you fully here. I hope nothing I posted runs counter to this statement. I am not interested in celestial lala land. Self realization and engaging fully in this very life in this very time is my approach as well. 

 

 

Just my thoughts as of now, they may change in the future.

I value and appreciate your thoughts.

I also share your insight that anything I post is where I am at this moment and may look different tomorrow. 

[RiverSnake]

Thank you for such a kind and spirited response (pun intended ). Cheers.

Edited April 2, 2016 by OldChi

[Orion]

Well, I don't believe in karma in terms of some universal moral accounting system. Ultimately there's nothing in here for karma to attach to. Karma is mind and your own personal database of what you feel are your rights or wrongs. Anything you hold onto that needs sorting is karma in that sense. I also believe in simple cause and effect, but that's not always predictable. Just because you do something good does not mean it will have a good consequence (the road to hell paved with good intentions), and likewise some bad stuff leads to beneficial outcomes (violent uprisings leading to better governments, etc.). Good and bad are subjective anyway, but I digress...

 

Magic is altering your consciousness or reality with a specific aim, at its most simple definition. What that means or the desired goals are really up to the practitioner. You can use it for higher or lower pursuits, to help or to harm. But in terms of karma? Beyond how you internalize your own actions, and how the external world may react to your actions, there are no rules. I'm sure there are some people out there who revel in doing harm, but at their core of cores it's hurting them. Others are completely unremorseful.

 

Forget magic for a sec. There are people in this world who are totally psycho and enjoy inflicting pain, violence and suffering on others. They torture, maim and kill for amusement. Many of them get away with it. What's their karma?

 

If there's more to karma than what I already said, then it's beyond our knowing. Just follow your path and your heart, and that's all the guidance you need. If you're doing shit that's out of alignment with your dharma then that's going to sidetrack you whether "good" or "bad". If it feels like you shouldn't be doing it, chances are that feeling is correct.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Orion

[doc benway]

Well, I don't believe in karma in terms of some universal moral accounting system. 

In my opinion that would be a misinterpretation of karma. While I see very deep truth in the concept of karma, the moral aspect is an overlay of human judgement. 

[doc benway]

Forget magic for a sec. There are people in this world who are totally psycho and enjoy inflicting pain, violence and suffering on others. They torture, maim and kill for amusement. Many of them get away with it. What's their karma?

 

Karma is best looked at on a much larger scale than the individual, in my opinion.

The traditions that speak of karma also have, at their core, a view of non-duality. 

From the non-dual perspective the law of karma, and reincarnation for that matter, is quite clear and obvious. 

From the perspective of duality, both are much less obvious. 

[RiverSnake]

In my opinion that would be a misinterpretation of karma. While I see very deep truth in the concept of karma, the moral aspect is an overlay of human judgement. 

 

Yep

[RiverSnake]

The scale is blind.

Edited April 3, 2016 by OldChi

[wuchiclan]

new student here, taking studies seriously for about 6 months

 

It seems you are focused on spiritual growth by removal of "bullshit", for which you are turning to manifestation magic.

 

IF the body is born from the womb, and the spirit is born from the body, then focusing on building the body will place focus on building the spirit.

 

How is your body functioning? Has diet placed some of these "blocks" in your body? perhaps addressing the physical will help you manifest in the spiritual