Daoism and Western Esotericism

[Kongming]

Does anyone here think there is any benefit to the combined study and/or practice of Western esoteric and occult traditions and Daoism? Is there anyone here who does just that? If so what has been your experience in this area?

 

I have very limited knowledge of the Western esoteric traditions but have always had a slight fascination with the topic. From what I know, the Western esoteric tradition is often couched in or based on Christian and Kabbalistic terms/foundations, and thus this may a conflict with Daoism which works from a different perspective. Though it seems to me that Hermeticism with its notion of "as above so below" and Western alchemy might have some parallels to Daoism and hence be compatible. I also know very little about the figure of Aleister Crowley or his system of Thelema, but I do know that he praised Daoism highly.

 

So in short, what are your thoughts and/or experiences on the relationship between Daoism and Western esoteric traditions?

[Michael Sternbach]

Brilliant question. In a nutshell, in all the traditions you have mentioned, there is infinite truth to be found.

 

As some here know, I have been studying Daoism, Hermeticism, and other metaphysical systems for decades. I always took it for granted that there is ONE universe that has an objective existence, not only on the physical but also on the metaphysical level. Daoism, Hermeticism, Kabbalah, Thelema... They all are just different windows through which you can look at that ONE reality. Sometimes you will be seeing it from different angles, so the image might appear differently. You must not let this confuse you, nor give in to the temptation to overly simplify things. Then the different vistas will give you a more complete picture of the ONE truth - which keeps eluding full comprehension nevertheless.

 

Following this path, you must learn to discriminate (analysis). You will have to decide if and how things are or aren't related to each other. Sometimes it might take years to make up your mind. And you must be creative (synthesis).

 

Contradictions? Well, there are contradictions even within the boundaries of any single system. Different interpretations abound - as this forum gives ample evidence of. But actually, many seeming contradictions can be resolved if you take a higher perspective that allows you to recognize how, in fact, they make up a whole together.

 

Talking about Aleister Crowley, it was one of his greatest goals to reconcile different spiritual traditions. His famous Tarot, the Thoth deck, is the epitome of all his metaphysical knowledge. No final answer, to be sure - but a guide to the ONE Universe that is both out there and in there.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Does anyone here think there is any benefit to the combined study and/or practice of Western esoteric and occult traditions and Daoism? Is there anyone here who does just that? If so what has been your experience in this area?

 

I have very limited knowledge of the Western esoteric traditions but have always had a slight fascination with the topic. From what I know, the Western esoteric tradition is often couched in or based on Christian and Kabbalistic terms/foundations, and thus this may a conflict with Daoism which works from a different perspective. Though it seems to me that Hermeticism with its notion of "as above so below" and Western alchemy might have some parallels to Daoism and hence be compatible. I also know very little about the figure of Aleister Crowley or his system of Thelema, but I do know that he praised Daoism highly.

 

So in short, what are your thoughts and/or experiences on the relationship between Daoism and Western esoteric traditions?

 

I have had the goal of synthesizing Chinese and Western Esoteric traditions since circa 1970, today I routinely practice just such a synthesis which I find powerful and effective, and the power of which has been demonstrated to some people even some here on the Dao Bums.  I don't have time to go into details right now, but suffice it to say, for now at least, that between what I prefer to call Ritual Daoism and Western ceremonial magic there is a high degree of complementarity and that a satisfactory structure for such a synthesis can be achieved, it requires going back to the "pre-modern" Western tradition of the Occult Philosophy of the Renaissance Hermetic Platonist, Cornelius Agrippa, rather then the proto-new age eclecticism of Aleister Crowley, but it can be done and I have spoken of it many times on the Dao Bums, including my introductory post here, as "Cornelius Agrippa meets the Golden Dawn in Medieval China", which for convenience sake I will repost here:

 

Hello, they tell me I can do stand-up...

 

Yes another overly funny, strange person has registered with The Tao Bums. I am sure many of you will live to regret this day least of all me.

 

I came across you bums doing a search on Thunder Magic. That in itself should tell you how odd I am. I have many years of study, practice, reflection, etc. on Daoism in its spiritual/philosophical/religious dimensions behind me. I combine it with a long term interest in the Western Esoteric traditions such as Magic, Qabalah, Platonism as it shades into Neo-Platonism, Astrology (Western and Chinese), Esoteric Mathematics, etc. Back in the Eighties I jokingly, but rather accurately, summarized my studies as Cornelius Agrippa meets the Golden Dawn in Medieval China. That said, how do you like me so far?

 

Donald

 

Many people here who have read my serious posts must wonder about this business of “stand-up”, a reference to a comedy act, I attempt to explain of some it in the root post of my personal practice section, which regrettably, non Dao Bums cannot follow:

 

Zhongyongdaoists Limitless Mischief Machine

 

If I have time I will elaborate on the topic of this thread and on issues raised by the above.

[Kongming]

This article seems to have some good information relevant to the topic:

 

http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeVI/Dao.htm

 

In particular this bit I found useful:

 

 

 

 

 The Five Agents are a product of the deeper Yin-Yang dynamics which originated as a relationship between Yang (light, breath, movement, male heaven) and Yin (darkness, bodily stillness, female earth) in the midst of which emerged the Human (jen) realm of mediation and synthesis. This tripart division of Heaven, Humanity, and Earth each have their correspondent rulers, spirits, and powers. The interactive dynamics of Yin-Yang integration emerges from the Primordial Breath (yuanqi or taiji), the creative energy of Being, which is itself is born of wuqi (Highest Non-Energy). These correlations, which are many and highly diverse within various Daoist systems, were further correlated with the eight trigrams and the sixty four hexagrams of the Yijing, accompanied by multiple Daoist commentaries, associated with many diverse deities, and strong emphasis on astral influences of the Big Dipper constellation (Thunder Magic). All of these associations were tied to ritual and magical practices carried out by trained Daoist masters who were experts in the esoteric lore and visualization techniques of Daoist alchemy and ceremonial invocation. [32]This correlative approach is highly congruent with the western Hermetic tradition rooted in a similar correlative cosmology based in early Greco-Roman alchemy, based on five elements (earth, water, air, fire and aether) transmitted through Islamic alchemical traditions in the form of alchemical and Hermetic cosmological texts which were translated into European languages during the Italian Renaissance. The Hermetic texts were primary sources for western esoteric theories of the prisca theologia and the philosophia perennis and were clearly an early, comparative resource for the esoteric reading of translated Daoist texts. [33]

 

Renaissance correlative cosmology was highly visual (graphic arts) and imagistic in mapping the body, for example Robert Fludd’s microcosmic “atmospheric” depiction of the body or various Kabbalistic theories of the body, in ways more detailed and elaborate but similar to Daoist theories of the “landscape of the body” which contains a multitude of sacred beings, astrological energies, and a tripart division of upper, middle and lower chambers, each with its ruling spirits and cosmological correlations. [34] Renaissance esotericists also used number schemas to elaborate their cosmological symbolism encoded in archetypal patterns of three, seven, nine and twelve, as do many of the Daoist masters, particularly using schemas of three, five, nine, and twelve. Western esotericism has many hierarchical systems in organizing its cosmology as do the many Daoist schools where various planes correspond to specific orders or powers or deities, linked through correlative relationships forming a “chain of being” between the different orders, as illustrated in ~Cornelius Agrippa’s De Occulta Philosophia (1533) and similar to many Yuan dynasty Daoist texts. [35]   However, Daoists have tended toward a less rigidly structured hierarchy and have been tolerant of diversity among the various Daoist esoteric schools. [36]

 

Many texts on Daoist alchemy share resonances with Western esoteric, hermetic practices including the refinement of material substances through various stages of transformation, a search for an immortal elixir or “cinnabar pill”, use of an hermetic vessel or cauldron, occult animal and talismanic (fu) symbolism including special magical scripts, the use of mineral, vegetable and pharmacological substances, secret or orally transmitted instructions (later written down), the use of esoteric visualization (tsun), breath and movement techniques,  reclusive withdrawal from the world, fasting and asceticism, the significance of dreams and a general visionary epistemology, as well as the elusive search for varying degrees of immortality, a particular goal of Daoist practice. Magical practices, with invocations, sacred circles, geomantic inscriptions, carried out with magical implements like the staff or sword, with incense, bells, and chanting are also common aspects of both Daoist and Western esoteric techniques. [37] It was the religious and magical techniques of Daoism that strongly attracted the interests of certain western esotericists, much more than the strictly philosophical texts of early classical Daoism. Mythical stories and imagery, dragon bones and water fairies, the golden peaches of immortality from the gardens of Hsi Wang Mu (Queen of Heaven), as well as the reputed occult powers and abilities of the Daoist masters or “immortals” (xien), both embodied and disembodied, resonate well with the imaginative worlds of western esoteric, magical thought. The Daoist emphasis on “internal” (neidan) alchemy or the distillation of the "Golden Elixir" (jindan) based on ritual, meditation and breath techniques for personal spiritual transformation, as compared to the more “external” (waidan) laboratory practices, also resonated well with late 19th century magical society practices that emphasized personal transformation while the mingling of both alchemical aspects was common in western esoteric traditions. [38] 

 

 

On the topic of neidan, for those who have studied both neidan and Western alchemy, how comparable are the two in their goals, methodologies, etc.? 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

On the topic of neidan, for those who have studied both neidan and Western alchemy, how comparable are the two in their goals, methodologies, etc.? 

 

I actually spent a lot of time and thought comparing Charles Luk's Taoist Yoga, Alchemy and Immortality, with Western Alchemical texts in the early to mid 1970s.  The study was interesting and I think the time was well spent.  When I read Michael Saso's Taoism and the Rite of Cosmic Renewal circa 1977, I found a new and interesting look at Daoist internal alchemy and my focus changed, though I still kept the Luk book in mind as an important text and practice.  I don't have time to elaborate on this now, but I have posted a little on these subjects in other threads on the Dao Bums, though I don't know if those tidbits would merit a search.  I will try to elaborate on this shortly if I can.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Minor punctuation.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Zhongyongdaoist

[Taoist Texts]

So in short, what are your thoughts and/or experiences on the relationship between Daoism and Western esoteric traditions?

Depends on what exactly in the west. There is congruence between neidan and western alchemy, some Christianity as well; everything else, in particular the modern western occultism - no.

[niki]

Yes. The two compliment one another quite well. The fundamental concepts which link the 2 together being balance and moderation between extremes and the One Divine Source from which everything originates. I believe in order to achieve this balance and connect with the Divine Source we must live virtuously by whatever means necessary. I find The Bible, Torah, Kabbalah, Buddhism, and Ancient Greek Philosophy to be wonderfully inspiring. I came to this place in my life through use of Tarot and Numerology was the major factor that one day just showed up, got in my face and just wouldn't go away. I'm here to more thoroughly explore the Dao. I'm pretty well versed Western Esotericism. Feel free to message me about it anytime!

Edited March 21, 2016 by niki

[Kongming]

Again, coming from an area of very limited knowledge on Western esotericism, how does Hermetic Qabalah fit in relation to Daoism? I know I've heard comparisons between Ein Sof and the Dao before, but is there anything else which really fits? 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Depends on what exactly in the west. There is congruence between neidan and western alchemy, some Christianity as well; everything else, in particular the modern western occultism - no.

 

With all due respect Taoist Texts, I will have to disagree, as a person who has studied both the Golden Dawn temple and the Ritual Daoist Ritual/Meditation Dan in considerable detail, I would have to say that there are interesting similarities and differences and that they actually have a high degree of complementarity that exists between them, and I think that complementarity summarizes their relationship very well, but I don't have time now to go into detail now.

 

Again, coming from an area of very limited knowledge on Western esotericism, how does Hermetic Qabalah fit in relation to Daoism? I know I've heard comparisons between Ein Sof and the Dao before, but is there anything else which really fits? 

 

To my mind the keyword here as above is complementarity, however most "occultists" don't have nor do they really cultivate the type of analytic skill necessary to achieve good results which is the difference that I draw between eclecticism and syncretism, between a jumble of practices and a well formed synthesis.

 

I'll try to expand on these topics, but I have other things on which I am working which must take precedence.  Among other things I am dividing my allotted Dao Bums posting time between this thread and the one on Eliphas Levi, though I have to say there is a certain complementarity between these two threads also.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Minor spelling

Edit: Added link to Eliphas Levi thread

Edited March 21, 2016 by Zhongyongdaoist

[ChiForce]

Before you can even talk about combining them or mixing them, you must know what they are trying to accomplish.  In Taoism, you are to recognize and to create the light of the immortal birth through the cultivation of the chi.....and practicing the microcosmic orbit.  The operational word is LIGHT.  It is this light, perceived by the third eye, that allows you to recognize the Tao and to realize your "immortality."  This is the same light spoken in the esoteric Tibetan Buddhism Dzogchen...it is called the rigpa. 

 

So, it is more than just mixing concepts and symbols.  You can even say that there isn't any need to mix because the Tao or the realization and recognition of rigpa is already universal...the world and the reality as it is perceived and experienced by the realized mind. 

[Kongming]

Speaking of qi/chi, I was going to ask, does anyone know if there is an equivalent to qi (or prana, etc.) in the Western esoteric tradition?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Speaking of qi/chi, I was going to ask, does anyone know if there is an equivalent to qi (or prana, etc.) in the Western esoteric tradition?

 

As suggested the Greek equivalent would be:

 

pneuma

 

a more common one, at least in the Western Europe would be the Latin "spiritus", spirit.  This covers traditional names for qi as "vital force", beginning in the late Eighteenth Century we can find the idea reappearing as the "animal magnetism" of Mesmer, in the Nineteenth, as the "odic force" of von Reichenbach, and in the Twentieth Century as the "orgone" of Wilhelm Reich, in short "vital force" is a concept that simply will not "die".

 

However there is also a larger sense of qi as "substance" in the the Chinese lǐ/qì (理氣, Principle/"matter-energy") tradition which is very similar to Aristotle and this connection is something very useful to keep in mind for East/West comparison, as I have mentioned here:

 

While these are references to Aristotle's hylomorphism (Substance/form), the Chinese lǐ/qì (理氣, Principle/"matter-energy") cosmology that dates back at least to Hafeizi, who in turn credited it to his study of the Dao De Jing, is a close enough "twin" to Aristotle that a study of Aristotle is useful.

 

Call it what you want qi or spirit, the Chinese have long considered that all of creation is a condensation or refinement of one substance, what Aristotle would call "prime matter", in Greek hyle. But without the differentiation provided by "principle", in Aristotle "morphe" in Plato "idos", there would be no difference between heart and liver. Thus the importance of principle or form and my objection to the overuse of "transformation". In becoming a shen/xiān, a cultivator is not transformed, which means a change of form, instead he/she realizes the full potential inherent in their bodies, what I have called "the Form of Humanity", thus Mencius, "a man must be a sage before he can satisfy the design of his bodily organization." A change yes, a transformation, no.

 

Actually the whole discussion of that thread is rather interesting and I recommend following the link and then going to the beginning of the thread and reading all of it.  It is a short thread, only two pages, but very interesting nonetheless.

[niki]

If you seek to gain insight into both Western Esotericism and Kabbalah I suggest acquiring a deck of Tarot cards and start doing self readings. It won't take long, I promise.

[Michael Sternbach]

If you seek to gain insight into both Western Esotericism and Kabbalah I suggest acquiring a deck of Tarot cards and start doing self readings. It won't take long, I promise.

 

Regarding some connections between Tarot and Daoism, please take a look at this thread I started last year:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/38847-the-tao-of-tarot/

 

It goes without saying that you are welcome to add posts of your own to it.

[Michael Sternbach]

Oh, and I'm pretty sure you also want to take a look at

 

The jewish cabala equivalent to tao (dao)

 

Regrettably, this thread has been "vandalized" by some of the participators deleting their content later. I have no idea why some folks feel compelled to do this. It really detracts from a thread. This one still has plenty of good stuff in it though, imo.

[HoldorFold]

Does anyone here think there is any benefit to the combined study and/or practice of Western esoteric and occult traditions and Daoism? Is there anyone here who does just that? If so what has been your experience in this area?

 

I have very limited knowledge of the Western esoteric traditions but have always had a slight fascination with the topic. From what I know, the Western esoteric tradition is often couched in or based on Christian and Kabbalistic terms/foundations, and thus this may a conflict with Daoism which works from a different perspective. Though it seems to me that Hermeticism with its notion of "as above so below" and Western alchemy might have some parallels to Daoism and hence be compatible. I also know very little about the figure of Aleister Crowley or his system of Thelema, but I do know that he praised Daoism highly.

 

So in short, what are your thoughts and/or experiences on the relationship between Daoism and Western esoteric traditions?

 

Absolutely, I believe it's important to have an understanding of various traditions. From my perspective, every tradition has strengths and weaknesses and by studying them you can negate those weaknesses and have a more solid foundation for understanding and practice. I find western/vedic astrology much richer than say Chinese astrology for instance, whereas the Chinese system of mapping of the etheric body and energy practices are much more advanced. I also believe there are strengths and weaknesses in the philosophies themselves. William Mistele, a hermetic magus, made an apt comment regarding how the principle of non-interference contributed to the demise of Tibet.

 

Personally, I follow western and vedic astrology, Hermeticism as put forth by Franz Bardon and William Mistele, Taoism, Qigong, Gnostic Christianity and more. 

 

One of the trickier things to integrate is the 5 element system vs the 4 element system since they are so fundamental in these traditions. One view is that the 5 element system works more on the personal level, e.g. in the body, organs and natural processes, whereas the 4 elements work on a more universal level e.g. the division of the 12 signs of the zodiac into 4 elemental triads, the Tetragrammaton and the 4 aspects of God (omnipresence, omniscience, omipotence and omnibenevolence => earth, air, fire, water respectively etc.) 

 

This is a pretty good article about the differences between the two elemental systems