Sunyata/emptiness as Shakti/love-bliss

[taoguy]

I was listening to a talk by Chunyi Lin (from springforestqigong) who remarked that emptiness is not the best word for westerners since it implies a vacuum. Instead he uses the word one-ness or universe.

 

Then I also came across this website (http://lovebliss.eu) where the writer claims to be fully-enlightened (higher than self-knowledge). He also says that at first it feels empty, but he then realizes it is full of love-bliss. He says the throb of Shakti is what causes the expression of the Divine in its many ways.

 

I also heard from this other mystic who claims to be an Arahant. He says that tranquility is the gateway and then "charisms" such as ringing, lights, tingling surface, culminating as an out of body experience. He says when he merged into nirvakalpa samadhi he was one with all the stars in the universe. But he describes Nirvana as a complete blackness and total annihilation.

 

Well I'm not expecting enlightened folks to reply but just wondering what the view is here...

[Jetsun]

It is the great mystery, how nothing can be something, how when you look deeply into anything you cant find it, yet you can't deny that something exists. The Heart Sutra probably puts this riddle in the most succinct terms that emptiness is form and form is emptiness.

 

Emptiness is usually used to denote that things are empty of something rather than completely defining it, empty of identity and empty of inherent existence from its own power, so rather than non-existence things do exist but exist dependent on many causes and conditions, so things exist in a different way than the mind usually perceives things. 

 

There are different kinds of bliss though, one can get blissed out through meditation but it isn't necessarily the same bliss as the union of form and emptiness, rather it could be a body bliss which can be a hindrance to realisation. 

 

But shakti is one side of it, the deeper nature is the union of shiva and shakti, the unity of emptiness and compassion

Edited March 23, 2016 by Jetsun

[Jeff]

Think of it like two sides of the same coin. The vibrant energy/light (of Shakti) on one side and the perfect clarity of mind on the other. Those who pursue the path are usually of two types, either more heart based (energy) or mind based (clarity). Depending on your perspective, as wisdom grows or obstructions are cleared, one ultimately realizes that both sides (energy and clarity) are the same coin, and then the fun really starts...

[Lataif]

In the teaching that I follow . . . "emptiness" is understood to be an absence of limitations.  What's "absent" in "emptiness" . . . is any constraint (mental, emotional, physical) to the unfolding of Reality.   

[taoguy]

It is the great mystery, how nothing can be something, how when you look deeply into anything you cant find it, yet you can't deny that something exists. The Heart Sutra probably puts this riddle in the most succinct terms that emptiness is form and form is emptiness.

 

Emptiness is usually used to denote that things are empty of something rather than completely defining it, empty of identity and empty of inherent existence from its own power, so rather than non-existence things do exist but exist dependent on many causes and conditions, so things exist in a different way than the mind usually perceives things. 

 

There are different kinds of bliss though, one can get blissed out through meditation but it isn't necessarily the same bliss as the union of form and emptiness, rather it could be a body bliss which can be a hindrance to realisation. 

 

But shakti is one side of it, the deeper nature is the union of shiva and shakti, the unity of emptiness and compassion

 

I've been trying to understand why "form" correlates to love-bliss... What does this form refer to? Do you have an idea of that?

 

Does it refer to "rupa" as in the color-world, which is characterized by physical matter? Or does it refer to the form as in of thoughtforms, emotions, sensations, etc?

 

 

Think of it like two sides of the same coin. The vibrant energy/light (of Shakti) on one side and the perfect clarity of mind on the other. Those who pursue the path are usually of two types, either more heart based (energy) or mind based (clarity). Depending on your perspective, as wisdom grows or obstructions are cleared, one ultimately realizes that both sides (energy and clarity) are the same coin, and then the fun really starts...

 

Thanks, that does make some sense as I find that the clearer my mind gets, the more profoundly that energy arises within me.

 

 

In the teaching that I follow . . . "emptiness" is understood to be an absence of limitations.  What's "absent" in "emptiness" . . . is any constraint (mental, emotional, physical) to the unfolding of Reality.   

 

Thank you, that does make some sense!

 

But what I don't understand is how emptiness is form - What does this form mean to you then?

[Bearded Dragon]

But what I don't understand is how emptiness is form - What does this form mean to you then?

 

There is no thing called emptiness, so all you ever see is form (although emptiness is still there). There is the concept of the mysterious female or mysterious pass. Mystery is form, female is emptiness. It is indistinguishable.

 

The definition of the love that you refer to is merely acceptance. Form is accepted into emptiness before a thought can say "Nah I'm not going to accept that". The thought is moot because it's already been accepted, or loved. If you have freedom from the thoughts and emotions that are added on top (they are still there but you are free to do whatever you want with them) then all you're left with is a beautiful free-flowing acceptance of every aspect of form that flows by. Without the form there would be nothing to love/accept into awareness. This is the correlation that you're looking for.

[doc benway]

I was listening to a talk by Chunyi Lin (from springforestqigong) who remarked that emptiness is not the best word for westerners since it implies a vacuum. Instead he uses the word one-ness or universe.

 

Then I also came across this website (http://lovebliss.eu) where the writer claims to be fully-enlightened (higher than self-knowledge). He also says that at first it feels empty, but he then realizes it is full of love-bliss. He says the throb of Shakti is what causes the expression of the Divine in its many ways.

 

I also heard from this other mystic who claims to be an Arahant. He says that tranquility is the gateway and then "charisms" such as ringing, lights, tingling surface, culminating as an out of body experience. He says when he merged into nirvakalpa samadhi he was one with all the stars in the universe. But he describes Nirvana as a complete blackness and total annihilation.

 

Well I'm not expecting enlightened folks to reply but just wondering what the view is here...

 

I agree that the word emptiness in English can be problematic.

It implies absence to the Western ear.

It refers to the absence of something very specific, and as long as that is understood, it is as a useful word.

What is absent is the reality of the "self" I take to be me. 

Similarly, when referring to objects, what is absent is their inherent existence, their individuality, their separation from their environment and other objects, their independent existence. I'm not very good with words - my apologies.

 

One-ness can also be problematic in that it implies something solid, something inherently existing, and it does not acknowledge our direct, personal experience of separation from others and from our environment. While there does exist the possibility of a direct experience of that universal one-ness (absolute truth), it does not negate the direct experience of separateness (our relative truth).

 

The Bönpos and Buddhists refer to reality as having three aspects which are inseparable from one another. One aspect is the empty aspect, the lack of discrete, inherent, separate existence of objects or self. The second aspect is clarity which has the quality of light or illumination and refers to the self knowing aspect of existence. Finally, the third aspect is warmth, sometimes referred to as Great Bliss. When the direct realization of emptiness and clarity are present they are inseparable from this feeling of bliss or warmth. It can be a subtle or overwhelmingly powerful experience, depending on the individual's level of realization. My own understanding is that when one has the direct, personal experience of the one-ness to which Chunyi Lin refers, then every other living being is directly felt as if they were oneself. This is the basis of true, or unconditional, love. This is the basis of that bliss. This feeling is generally somewhat unstable over time and the cultivation methods of the Buddhists and Daoists (and other religions) are helpful in terms of trying to stabilize this connection with our absolute nature. 

[Brian]

You sell yourself short, steve. You are quite good with words, including with recognizing the inadequacies of them.

[doc benway]

I've been trying to understand why "form" correlates to love-bliss... What does this form refer to? Do you have an idea of that?

Form refers to our experience meditated by our sensory apparatus. 

 

Does it refer to "rupa" as in the color-world, which is characterized by physical matter? Or does it refer to the form as in of thoughtforms, emotions, sensations, etc?

Yes, all of the above. 

 

 

But what I don't understand is how emptiness is form - What does this form mean to you then?

Here is one illustrative example that might help. I don't mean this to be a de novo definition of form/emptiness - just an illustration. 

 

Think about vision. Your brain interprets what you see, for example, as a brown tree trunk. 

It looks brown precisely because of the nature of the visual receptors in your eye and the neuronal connections in your brain. 

An animal with different photoreceptors will see a different color, maybe no color. 

What you are "seeing" is electromagnetic radiation which, in the absence of your unique and specific sensory apparatus, is just that, unrecognizable, indistinguishable radiation. 

What you see is what your eye and brain "create" out of that mish-mosh of electromagnetic radiation. 

Again, just one way to look at things.

 

Similarly that tree trunk feels hard and rough, but that is only because of the nature of your skin, the cutaneous sensory receptors in the skin, and the neuronal connections in the brain. To a grizzly bear, that tree bark feels relatively soft. To an elephant, it probably feels smooth and flexible... 

 

Don't know if any of that helps but when I had this understanding that what I see is really what is happening in my brain, not in reality, it shifted my perspective a bit. 

[3bob]

and of course there is the inherent eternal Self that is...