Questions to the head of Judaism.

[Apech]

yes

 

 

the Egyptians had a lot of gods I was wondering which one you were referring to.

[liminal_luke]

 

 

 

 

It makes no sense to explain it, because it knows only the Creator and I (in part). Creator has appointed me and everything!

 

 

I can´t speak as to the opinion of the Creator, but personally I consider thelerner our local expert on things Jewish.

Edited April 5, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Nungali]

the Egyptians had a lot of gods I was wondering which one you were referring to.

 

I think he means the G*g of the slaves.... the ones that built Joseph's  grain storage bins outa mud bricks without straw. 

 

And that  particular slave's G@d that got  elevated above all the other slave G#ds before they had a one and only G%d that he then told them not to worship .

[Lois]

the Egyptians had a lot of gods I was wondering which one you were referring to.

It did not the Egyptian gods, and the Creator of the universe.

[Apech]

It did not the Egyptian gods, and the Creator of the universe.

 

 

Even there you have a choice of several - Atum, Atum-Ra, Ra, Amen-ra and so on.

[Apech]

I think he means the G*g of the slaves.... the ones that built Joseph's  grain storage bins outa mud bricks without straw. 

 

And that  particular slave's G@d that got  elevated above all the other slave G#ds before they had a one and only G%d that he then told them not to worship .

 

 

I wonder if G#d ever bothered to notice that Egyptian bricks were traditionally built without straw.  

[Lois]

I'm not an Egyptologist but I when I look into this subject, all the things that I find affirm the use of straw. There are a lot of purely biblical sites that I don't think are worth a mention. There is also this source, which might be a little better:

https://books.google.com/books?id=KX7QAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&dq=egyptian+bricks+never+made+with+straw&source=bl&ots=5nfxmbPa_I&sig=EzWVCDBvDtgaYKlg0FwvIPCOTBA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjn5vyctPrLAhUByYMKHSn5C4AQ6AEITDAK#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20bricks%20never%20made%20with%20straw&f=false

 

It says that straw was exclusive to Egypt but absent in Canaan.

 

Where's your source on the absence of straw? ---I'm not meaning it in an accusative or aggressive way; I'm just not finding things that say that straw wasn't used and now I'm genuinely curious

 

 

I do not understand why it is not necessary to believe the Torah. This is the most reliable source. If it is said that the bricks made with straw, that means it's true. It makes no sense to discuss someone's speculation.

[Taoist Texts]

[Apech]

I'm not an Egyptologist but I when I look into this subject, all the things that I find affirm the use of straw. There are a lot of purely biblical sites that I don't think are worth a mention. There is also this source, which might be a little better:

https://books.google.com/books?id=KX7QAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&dq=egyptian+bricks+never+made+with+straw&source=bl&ots=5nfxmbPa_I&sig=EzWVCDBvDtgaYKlg0FwvIPCOTBA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjn5vyctPrLAhUByYMKHSn5C4AQ6AEITDAK#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20bricks%20never%20made%20with%20straw&f=false

 

It says that straw was exclusive to Egypt but absent in Canaan.

 

Where's your source on the absence of straw? ---I'm not meaning it in an accusative or aggressive way; I'm just not finding things that say that straw wasn't used and now I'm genuinely curious.

 

https://dataplasmid.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/ancient-egyptian-mud-brick-construction-materials-technology-and-implications-for-modern-man/

 

 

Mud bricks should contain at least three of the following ingredients: course sand for strength, fine sand to lock the course sand in place, silt and clay as binders and a plastic medium. A large quantity of aggregate make strong bricks when dry, but they crumble easily in a wet environment. On the other hand, high amounts of clay may result in a more highly water resistant brick that proves to be weaker overall (qtd. in Kemp 80). Other minerals, such as soluble salts, also play a big role in cementing the small particles together (Kemp 80). The Nile provided mud rich in a variety of minerals and small particles. Grains of slate, barium carbonate, gneiss, and iron oxide were swept into Egypt on the turbulent waters and gave the soil its dark color (Jacob 19). Modern analyses of mud samples from the Nile reveal high levels of certain minerals such as iron oxide (0.8-124,500 ppm), Zinc (2-866 ppm), and Manganese (12.5-800 ppm) (Solton et al.).[5] How much these elements affected the physical characteristics of the bricks, beyond pigmentation, is unclear. The Egyptians were adept at remedying their mud, and frequently relied entirely upon silt, as opposed to clay, to bind their materials together. Their preferred soil type was the cultivated topsoil of Egypt’s farmland since it was already well mixed and enriched by farming laborers. Of course this type of soil was not always available, and the brick makers frequently had to work with lesser materials. It is interesting to note that while they rarely added a straw temper[6] on purpose, it may have been present in the materials themselves (Kemp 80). When harvesting their crops, Egyptians cut the ears of the wheat, leaving the stems to be worked back into the soil. Any bricks made from the farming soil were already reinforced with organic material (Jacob 22). Sun-baked bricks produced using the same method as the Egyptians, without straw, have a strength from 4 N/cm3 to 5 N/cm3 whereas bricks containing straw have a strength from 7 N/cm3 to 9 N/cm3. Despite our scientific observations of brick making, the Egyptians did not have such exacting methods for their production.

 

 

It seems there was sometimes straw but it was sometimes adventitiously present in the mud because of composting methods.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Apech

[Apech]

I do not understand why it is not necessary to believe the Torah. This is the most reliable source. If it is said that the bricks made with straw, that means it's true. It makes no sense to discuss someone's speculation.

 

 

I'm not questioning the Torah.  If it says, as I presume it does, the Jews were told to make bricks without adding straw - then this is historically accurate since (as I quoted above) Egyptians did not usually deliberately add straw.  Where this factual information is spun - is in saying that this was some kind of hardship or punishment and not normal practice.  So yes, factually correct but interpreted through a narrative which is designed to promote a view that the Jews were a) slaves and b ) mistreated.

 

You will recall that while in the desert post Exodus there was a lot of yearning for returning to Egypt - for the lifestyle and the cucumbers and other lovely food and so on - so actually they had a good standard of living in Egypt - which is not surprising since it was one of the most advanced countries in the world at that time.

[Lois]

I'm not questioning the Torah.  If it says, as I presume it does, the Jews were told to make bricks without adding straw - then this is historically accurate since (as I quoted above) Egyptians did not usually deliberately add straw.  Where this factual information is spun - is in saying that this was some kind of hardship or punishment and not normal practice.  So yes, factually correct but interpreted through a narrative which is designed to promote a view that the Jews were a) slaves and b ) mistreated.

 

You will recall that while in the desert post Exodus there was a lot of yearning for returning to Egypt - for the lifestyle and the cucumbers and other lovely food and so on - so actually they had a good standard of living in Egypt - which is not surprising since it was one of the most advanced countries in the world at that time.

The Torah says that Jews cried out to the Creator of the world due to the fact that the Egyptians made their lives bitter.

[Apech]

The Torah says that Jews cried out to the Creator of the world due to the fact that the Egyptians made their lives bitter.

 

 

And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.

 

 

 

We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick:

Edited April 6, 2016 by Apech

[Chang]

Ah cucumbers.

 

You are being overly pedantic Apech. The rank and file may well have yearned for a return to Egypt as soon as the going got a bit rough. There is nothing unusual in this as any person forced to tighten their belt will look back at times of plenty with longing.

 

Moses however had his eyes set on higher things and was prepared to see a multitude starve as long as he achieved his objective. After all a great man looks on the common herd as straw dogs.

[Apech]

Ah cucumbers.

 

You are being overly pedantic Apech. The rank and file may well have yearned for a return to Egypt as soon as the going got a bit rough. There is nothing unusual in this as any person forced to tighten their belt will look back at times of plenty with longing.

 

Moses however had his eyes set on higher things and was prepared to see a multitude starve as long as he achieved his objective. After all a great man looks on the common herd as straw dogs.

 

 

Just trying to make the point that their lives were not that bitter.

[Nungali]

I wonder if G#d ever bothered to notice that Egyptian bricks were traditionally built without straw.  

 

Yes, but the slaves were not used to that they were like  "Dude !  Where is the straw ! "   

 

Not many people realise that the building history of the ancient Egyptians followed a still easily recognisable progression.  First the DID build with straw.  Then, in the next period they built with wood. After that bricks.

 

This has passed on down to us today in a more modern mythological form 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

I do not understand why it is not necessary to believe the Torah. This is the most reliable source. If it is said that the bricks made with straw, that means it's true. It makes no sense to discuss someone's speculation.

 

 

Like someone's speculation that they are the head of Judaism   .... hmmmmm  ?  

 

 

 

Hey !   Here is a novel idea .... how about looking at a surviving brick  from ancient Egypt ?  

 

No....  the Torah is better evidence ,  Ooooo   yeah ! 

[Nungali]

Ah cucumbers.

 

You are being overly pedantic Apech. The rank and file may well have yearned for a return to Egypt as soon as the going got a bit rough. There is nothing unusual in this as any person forced to tighten their belt will look back at times of plenty with longing.

 

Moses however had his eyes set on higher things and was prepared to see a multitude starve as long as he achieved his objective. After all a great man looks on the common herd as straw dogs.

 

But Egyptian dogs were not made with straw .

 

That was another hardship .... forced to have dogs with no straw in them. 

 

 

When I was in the desert , I too longed for a cold cucumber. 

 

 

This could be the origin of the outback insult "get a cold cucumber up ya !  " 

[Lois]

This article states that the artifacts found (they are in the British Museum), that the bricks were straw.

 

http://stmegi.com/posts/34286/britanskiy-muzey-/

[Apech]

This article states that the artifacts found (they are in the British Museum), that the bricks were straw.

 

http://stmegi.com/posts/34286/britanskiy-muzey-/

 

 

I'm afraid I can't read that - can you translate the relevant part?

[Nungali]

I cant wait to read that translation     (if its anything like the accompanying image ....    you do realise where they got that from Lois ? ? ? 

 

[Brian]

I cant wait to read that translation (if its anything like the accompanying image .... you do realise where they got that from Lois ? ? ?

 

Clearly, it is an actual digital photograph taken by a slave during a lunch break some time during the Old Kingdom, probably with an iPhone 4s. If we could get the metadata, we could pinpoint who was Pharoh.

[Lois]

I'm afraid I can't read that - can you translate the relevant part?

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fstmegi.com%2Fposts%2F34286%2Fbritanskiy-muzey-%2F&edit-text=

[thelerner]

There was a book I paged through years ago, about a line of Jewish Egyptian Pharoahs!?  I forget the author and the proof they offered.  The interesting thing was they, the author were Moslem and some of the proofs he used came from Koranic writings.

 

The book says in time, relatively quickly too, the line went native.    Is it possible?  Don't know.  Wouldn't put money on it.  The Torah talks about Joseph making it the number 2 position, but doesn't go further then that.  And personally I don't see the Torah ie first books of the old testament as an accurate history book.  Still, its intriguing and .. possible.

 

Thank you Google: https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=nrprAwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA6 Here is the book I paged through over a decade ago:

The Hebrew Pharaohs of Egypt: The Secret Lineage of the Patriarch Joseph, Edition 2

Ahmed Osman

September 19, 2003

Inner Traditions / Bear & Co

 

A reinterpretation of Egyptian and biblical history that shows the Patriarch Joseph and Yuya, a vizier of the eighteenth dynasty king Tuthmosis IV, to be the same person

• Uses detailed evidence from Egyptian, biblical, and Koranic sources to place Exodus in the time of Ramses I

• Sheds new light on the mysterious and sudden rise of monotheism under Yuya’s daughter, Queen Tiye, and her son Akhnaten

When Joseph revealed his identity to his kinsmen who had sold him into slavery, he told them that God had made him “a father to Pharaoh.” Throughout the long history of ancient Egypt, only one man is known to have been given the title “a father to Pharaoh”--Yuya, a vizier of the eighteenth dynasty king Tuthmosis IV. Yuya has long intrigued Egyptologists because he was buried in the Valley of Kings even though he was not a member of the Royal House. His extraordinarily well-preserved mummy has a strong Semitic appearance, which suggests he was not of Egyptian blood, and many aspects of his burial have been shown to be contrary to Egyptian custom.

As The Hebrew Pharohs of Egypt shows, the idea that Joseph and Yuya may be one and the same person sheds a whole new light on the sudden rise of monotheism in Egypt, spearheaded by Queen Tiye and her son Akhnaten. It would clearly explain the deliberate obliteration of references to the “heretic” king and his successors by the last eighteenth dynasty pharaoh, Horemheb, whom the author believes was the oppressor king in the Book of Exodus. The author also draws on a wealth of detailed evidence from Egyptian, biblical, and Koranic sources to place the time of the departure of the Hebrews from Egypt during the short reign of Ramses I, the first king of the nineteenth dynasty.

Edited May 3, 2016 by thelerner

[Apech]

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fstmegi.com%2Fposts%2F34286%2Fbritanskiy-muzey-%2F&edit-text=

 

 

Thank you - that article is nonsense.

[Nungali]

Thats all 'academic'    rubbish ! 

 

But the Head of  All Things Judaish  may agree with it  . 

Edited April 30, 2016 by Nungali