Spiraling Martial Energy

[nightwatchdog]

I found this nice video with some Hsing-i spiraling energy demonstration and discussion.

 

This is a key component of my own Hsing-i Chuan. I have seen folks on Taobums discussing other internal kungfu systems with various criticisms or offers of praise, but rarely do people demonstrate or discuss advanced work such as fajing or spiraling (silk reeling) energy.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfQAALoQbeI

 

How do you focus on expressing energy, and developing internal strength in your training?

 

Can you provide visual examples of yourself, or a teacher demonstrating such principles in action?

[Pietro]

I found this nice video with some Hsing-i spiraling energy demonstration and discussion.

 

This is a key component of my own Hsing-i Chuan. I have seen folks on Taobums discussing other internal kungfu systems with various criticisms or offers of praise, but rarely do people demonstrate or discuss advanced work such as fajing or spiraling (silk reeling) energy.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfQAALoQbeI

 

How do you focus on expressing energy, and developing internal strength in your training?

 

Can you provide visual examples of yourself, or a teacher demonstrating such principles in action?

Bruce teaches spiraling. It is one of the main not basic courses of his schools. Not so much as for the external movements but for the internal componenet that then makes every joint in your body start to make spirals. We just had a workshop in Germany. But he only teaches spiraling once every 3 or 4 years. Most students tend to take the spiraling coure 3 or 4 times (yes that means 9 to 12 years commitment to the school) before starting to a) getting it, have a strong enough downflow of energy to be able to practice it safely.

If you look at this video:

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3504318518881362299

 

I believe (but no one told me and I am no martial artist) that what Bruce is doing here is spiraling. See how he twists his body around the opponent. How he circles around the opponent hand. That's the external expression of the internal component called spiraling.

[rain]

hi

i dont know if i am suited to respond, since i cannot relate to advanced and since my initial response to your question of "inner strenght" immediately brought out the phrases "following" and "the ability to adapt".

 

I don't do taiji. I did years ago. Now I have a certified qigong teacher and know his lineage. In the beginning there were some sudden movements like "hiccups", then rocking and swaying. Gradually the positions in qigong which are quite similar to those in martial art, appear as spontaneous qigong movements where breath aligns with the expanding and contractions. Spiralling movements. My fingers and skin breathes. My body offers me counterbalance, and now my arms have started to "work on their own too" with similar circular moves also like in the video posted . The hands and fingertips seem to be most important! The only strenght I recognize is deep focus (talk about trance..) I dont have names for these forms. In a way I dont care. I know this is probably stupid. I dont think ill ever teach this though. That is the whole core. It just happens and has no name.

I realise that I am intergrating the various blocks and punches, kicks and turns from MA (they have names, and so do the qigong exc.) but in new combinations. (testing?testing?hello) I dont will these moves , they come and go and are literally working on me, like water flowing through the system aiming at further straightening out "cramps". A strong, determined flood with one intention, preparing for..flow,......... then whip?. I guess. Maybe?l

There has been preparation. Detailed physical training.

Edited November 12, 2007 by rain

[nightwatchdog]

Thanks both for replying. It is very high level work, rain, in the sense that it takes most people who can do it many years to develop. Some get it, but aren't aware of it because it's inherent in thier training system's way of moving. As soon as they stop practicing, and start operating in "normal" mode, they no long can do it. For example, how often do you see a tai chi practitioner silk reeling as they mop a floor, or closely observing the six harmonies as they select a ripe melon in the grocery store? This way of moving and being can make you tremendously healthy and powerful if you do it all the time. Perhaps that is one reason why the majority never get it at all.

 

Maybe this is why it's not something B.K.F. touches on frequently. Those who are going to get it are going to need years of work to develop the ability to consciously spiral energy. Of those who do, fewer still are going to integrate the work seemlessly enough to really start "being" that way, as opposed to just "training" that way.

[nightwatchdog]

"have a strong enough downflow of energy to be able to practice it safely."

 

It depends on the movement, but often I feel I'm bringing energy up with spirals... sometimes out, often also in. Down happens when resistance pushes against, or when I'm dropping.

 

Some folks would say dropping Dan Tien, but I can't relate to that image anymore. With Dan Tien connected to everything else ala six harmonies.... you drop everything. It's not even dropping, because nothing ever was "holding you". It's really "whole-body-down" which is more like "relaxing-controlled-fall-land-on-feet-in-posture." Dropping's easier to say though. Whole-body-down is more accurate.

 

Is this what you mean?

 

How does this contribute to safety? (Aside from teaching you to throw, kick, and bounce energy into a target very hard, which is self-defense effective, and therefore "safe" when a nasty person decides they can hurt you and get away with it.)

 

I really, really want to get some youtube videos up so I can start showing what I mean.

[rain]

...............

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[thaddeus]

I found this nice video with some Hsing-i spiraling energy demonstration and discussion.

 

This is a key component of my own Hsing-i Chuan. I have seen folks on Taobums discussing other internal kungfu systems with various criticisms or offers of praise, but rarely do people demonstrate or discuss advanced work such as fajing or spiraling (silk reeling) energy.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfQAALoQbeI

 

How do you focus on expressing energy, and developing internal strength in your training?

 

Can you provide visual examples of yourself, or a teacher demonstrating such principles in action?

I have to look at the video later, but I'm not sure what you're asking exactly. Spiraling is basic, not advanced. In internal martial arts, the body always spirals. The expression of the movement may be straight or circular, depending on the style, but the body is always spiral. For example, xingyi often moves forward in a 'straight' line, but every movement is spiral (silk reeling/chansujin).

Who are you learning xingyi from?

T

[nightwatchdog]

Edited November 13, 2007 by nightwatchdog

[Spectrum]

Whole-body-down is more accurate.

 

You my friend are a seeker. It's obvious. You Feel. What is your body made of.

 

Breath Releeeeeeeeasssssssse. Suspend. Float.

 

Tie strings around each of your joints. Goto Wuji. Sink. That statue, that dance, that art. Before Now is Now.

 

Where does energy change direction naturally in our body? O how the water flows sooOoo easy. Swift or Slow.

 

Any static place has it's ins and outs, paths or routes. I'm starting to think that the common ground between martial and health chi gung is understanding how the conscious body interacts with this rather subconscious "negative space." By this I mean the vallys and dips of the body either static of in motion. The internation of these surfaces encompass our basic locomotion, and also reveal parts of the "mechanism" of successful effortless or "perfert move" techniques in martial art, and indeed in physical culture in general. Homeruns, et all.

 

If there is one thing about the "flow" aspect of TaiChi and Chi Gung practice is the effects of the movement of water through these normally conditioned stagnant "blind spots" that also manifst as physical imparments of awareness. This is kinda experienced as a 360 buybble awareness in natural fight/flight or when your awareness is up in competition. But most peoples experience of this state is limited to those "times".... natural safe guards that are naturally attuned when we train physically. Part of the unique features of Taoist styles of martial art is there relationship to meditation. In Taoist terms, the relationship of Stillness to Motion, or of Motion to Stillness.

 

There is a way. It is from the center of the circle to the edge again and kcab naiga. I can not tell you in words. I can tell you how it feels sometimes or dra3w how it looks. It brings me to tears to try and bring it into these bounds of words alone. I am sorry I have spent this much time doing it. Communication occurs on many levels when we consider the implications of continually dropping into the well to decsend to the calm yet dangerous waters of the abyss. Without heaven no man or woman would succeed. Without the Cross the Circle is Nothing. oxoxoxo 8 inside outside samething something sometimes looking for a breath of fresh air one is forced to walk until /\ the stagnant red dust is blown from the shoulders, finding yourself on a cliff in wind as free as a bird, limitless flight patterns. The formless form of birds in flight through rainbows rays ways. Common tongues reach ready vernaculars in peculair fashions contemporary and ancient. Serpents slip slide & hide while Warriors Emerge from the Darkness.

 

Spectrum

Edited November 14, 2007 by Spectrum

[Oolong Rabbit]

Bruce teaches spiraling. It is one of the main not basic courses of his schools. Not so much as for the external movements but for the internal componenet that then makes every joint in your body start to make spirals. We just had a workshop in Germany. But he only teaches spiraling once every 3 or 4 years. Most students tend to take the spiraling coure 3 or 4 times (yes that means 9 to 12 years commitment to the school) before starting to a) getting it, have a strong enough downflow of energy to be able to practice it safely.

If you look at this video:

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3504318518881362299

 

I believe (but no one told me and I am no martial artist) that what Bruce is doing here is spiraling. See how he twists his body around the opponent. How he circles around the opponent hand. That's the external expression of the internal component called spiraling.

 

That video is awesome Pietro. B.K.F. is the real McCoy. It's like the attacker is getting sucked into a tornado, his energy totally absorbed and thrown back at him from all angles. Bruce is a bigtime Bagua practioner, and Bagua is all about circularity and spiralling energy.

[Spectrum]

PS - The Kunlun Martial Art demo has a lot of spirals init, kinda soft focus and watch the flow of the arms flow in spiral sequence that at least from my perspective are like finding a flower I didn't know existed. There are two single whips in the form in which one of them I hadn't seen before, and this is after searching through a lot of wudang material. Single whip is a good way to introduce the body to the concept of compression/tension spiraling.

 

A set I was taught in the first 2 years was Holding the Teacups. Consider the 9 Palance Drills Spirlling on a larger scale, as Wuji is on a smaller scale.

[Oolong Rabbit]

PS - The Kunlun Martial Art demo has a lot of spirals init, kinda soft focus and watch the flow of the arms flow in spiral sequence that at least from my perspective are like finding a flower I didn't know existed. There are two single whips in the form in which one of them I hadn't seen before, and this is after searching through a lot of wudang material. Single whip is a good way to introduce the body to the concept of compression/tension spiraling.

 

A set I was taught in the first 2 years was Holding the Teacups. Consider the 9 Palance Drills Spirlling on a larger scale, as Wuji is on a smaller scale.

 

Hi Spectrum,

 

I haven't being practicing tai chi for very long, so your eye is probably much keaner than mine. From my perspective, tai chi also utilizes spiralling, but it is much more 'hidden'. I will have to take another look at the clip. There's so much going on there.

 

BTW could you describe this "holding the teacups"? Just curious.

[nightwatchdog]

[Buddy]

I didn't care too much for the one on the beach. Zhing-yi? Maybe a basic Mandarin lesson? Not much power there. The one with Kumar and Sam Masich I have, and all the footage not on the original tape. Kumar's spiraling is neigong and not directly related to MA.

[doc benway]

Most people think of and refer to xingyiquan as being very linear. It's not. It's the subtle spiraling energies and movements, direction changes, footwork, body movements that are not linear that help to make it as effective as it is. No question that the direct, linear, destroy whatever's in the way nature of the techniques is important. Just as important IMO are the more subtle energies/movements that give your attacks/counterattacks the advantage, even against a physically stronger opponent. I began to feel these more subtle aspects when endlessly practicing the five elements. They became much more obvious when drilling the five elements with a sparring partner. These same energies are used in Taiji but in a slightly different application.

[Buddy]

I just watched this guy's other "zhingyi" clip where he purports to show paoquan. This one is even worse.

[doc benway]

 

 

How do you focus on expressing energy, and developing internal strength in your training?

 

Can you provide visual examples of yourself, or a teacher demonstrating such principles in action?

Expressing the energy is a side effect of using the yi to guide the qi in all techniques. Furthermore, xingyiquan's primary intent is aggressive and can be seen in the eyes of the practicioner.

Developing internal strength is done through standing meditation (santishi and other techniques I've been taught) and sitting meditation.

These are just my experiences and observations - I didn't mean to sound so dogmatic...

Edited November 14, 2007 by xuesheng

[nightwatchdog]

I didn't care too much for the one on the beach. Zhing-yi? Maybe a basic Mandarin lesson? Not much power there. The one with Kumar and Sam Masich I have, and all the footage not on the original tape. Kumar's spiraling is neigong and not directly related to MA.

 

Interesting.

 

I didn't much like the fellow's Pao chuan either. Do you have a video link to a breakdown (specifically of spirals) that is more to your liking? Of course anything with B.K.F. would be much appreciated!

 

[Buddy]

When I read what you guys write I'm not sure what you mean by spiraling. Twisting of the soft tissue cannot be readily seen. You could feel it in my body but that's what personal instruction is all about. You should always use internal strength combined with whole body power. The body continuously turns around the central axis, connecting the spine to the extremities. Rise, Drill, Overturn, Fall. It's all pretty simple but very difficult to achieve. YMMV.

[nightwatchdog]

Sure, that all is true. As you point out, the spirals are almost invisible. Unfortunatly, due to the limitations of video, we are forced to looking at things on a large frame if we're going to discuss it with each other.

 

Many teachers use this method. It allows them to show their students exaggerated spirals so that they can "see" what should be happening on a smaller level. It brings it into awareness. As awareness grows, the spiraling motions get smaller, until eventually they become invisible.

 

Vince Black likes to have his students move from a large to a small frame method of moving over time, specifically to train this. It starts out very exageratted and slow, with virtually no power expressed, like the fellow in my initial post. Over the course of a few months things tighten up, and the power becomes more and more apparent.

 

This is a good approach because it teaches a person how to link everything internally in a progressive way, instead of using a more trial and error "you'll get it someday" approach. I've tried both ways, and personally preffer the large to small method. I like to come back to it often too in order to explore.

[Pietro]

Kumar's spiraling is neigong and not directly related to MA.

This is not fully true.

As we were in Germany we were also given instructions on how to move the body from the spiraling energy. The effect was that the whole body started to twist and move in different ways. The whole form started to become alive. Depending on which energy ballw e were using to direct the energy the body would move fast or slow, coordinate or uncoordinate, following the form, or doing something else all together. It was also personal to the person. For me when the spirals in my head were in charge my body moved VERY fast. Very fast indeed. And I was very suprised that it would do so without pumping on anyone else. When I was using the other spirals it the effect was slower, more unccordinated and so on. Of course those differences are part of the distance that I will need to cover int he next years before I have fully integrated spiraling in my being.

 

He also told us: "this is how I got to become so fast and unpredictable...". Of course at the time he was standing 6 hours a day, so he had time to practice spiraling quite a lot. But he also added: "...I wish there was more to it, but that's just it".

 

As such spiraling is related to MA.

This is how Bruce became great in martial arts.

[Buddy]

Well if you can do it I'd be happy to see it. But I taught for Bruce in Cali so I think I'm qualified to comment. I think you'll find not everything Bruce said about Liu (and other things) is true. I started with him in the mid 80s, when he could still move. His stuff is good but not all it is claimed to be.

I think I've posted this before but here's my teacher doing the Rooster from xingyi. This is how it should be done.

[Pietro]

Well if you can do it I'd be happy to see it.

Hello Buddy Trip,

what do you want to see?

A practice I have learned 2 weeks ago and my daily instructor (Alan Peatfield, I am sure you know him), have advised me not to practice too much, for my nervous system is still not ready for it?

(you can email him for confirmation)

 

You pick easy fights, do you?

 

In any case if we ever meet (Bruce is going to teach a workshop on the middle tan tien next spring in Germany, and I am not aware he has taught that publicly before, although I might be wrong) I am happy to show you what I learned and get any feedback you might have.

[nightwatchdog]

 

I think I've posted this before but here's my teacher doing the Rooster from xingyi. This is how it should be done.

 

Yes, you did post that video. Thanks for putting it here.

 

You had written a little earlier that you weren't sure what we were talking about, and also that the spiraling energy is not for Martial arts....

 

Can you not see the enourmous spirals expanding and contracting as your teacher moves?

 

What is it that you think makes his movement "how it should be done?" His skill is quite apparent. So is the whirlwind of expanding and contracting spirals as he does form, and shows applications.

 

Thanks for the nice vid.

 

Edit: Teaching people to move like this is exactly what I was talking about.

Edited November 15, 2007 by nightwatchdog

[Buddy]

Pietro,

I am your senior. By many years. I know what Bruce teaches and I can readily duplicate it. No need for such defensiveness.

I don't mean to burst your bubble but all this energetic stuff, while cool sounding, is no aid to learning how to use martial arts. Everything from Gates to Gods teaches real and specific physical skills. My own students can duplicate them. But because there is a particular market for cool sounding stuff and Kumar can't teach martial arts anymore the current crowd likes esoteric information. Information is light years from knowledge and skill. I don't say this to piss you off because I've been where you are. Don't you think that the seniors that you see at workshops should be more...enlightened than they are? Don't you think Kumar would be in better health?

This is to take nothing away from him and his "system". But I don't see it being taught to where anyone can understand it. So when I hear people talk about things like "clearing the etheric body" I am dubious. I did this stuff a long time as did my seniors. Show me your cleared etheric body. I can readily show you internal power.

 

Other guy (sorry I don't like monikers),

What Luo is doing is completely based in the physical. We never talk about "energy". We talk about how to do it.

Spiraling in xingyiquan and baguazhang is called luoxuanjin. Spiraling and twisting trained power. Not energy, power. No need to think about the qi, it takes care of itself. More important is the yi, IMO. In Yizong we train, as a progression but also simultaneously, Choreography, Structure/Power, Continuity, and Intention.

 

The training must always be the same. Grounded completely in the physical (it's where we live) then applied to: self defense, spiritual pursuits, healing yourself and others. Those are only applications of hard work. Neigong is not an easy road, it's gongfu. Otherwise it's all talk and waving your hands in the air.

 

Sorry to ramble, I've given up trying to teach anyone in this medium. But I know what I can do and why. Much of it is from Bruce's neigong. And it was hard work to figure it out. It does not need to take anyone as long as it took me and I'm fairly clever. Take it or leave it, it doesn't matter much to me, I already have it.

Edited November 15, 2007 by Buddy