Spiraling Martial Energy

[nightwatchdog]

Buddy, I respect your position. I really don't see either of our views as being different. The "energy" I'm reffering to is kinetic energy. Energy is the scientific term for what fajing really is. Whether or not I'm using terms in a way that you like to, the results are the same. There's no need to get stuck on semantics anyway; We're discussing how to do things. If the conversation is going to start and end at our computer keyboards, then nothing's really going to be accomplished.

 

Some of us find that discussing and working on these things help us to work out details of our respective arts, and to look at them from a different perspective. If you feel you've got it, don't need to examine it anymore, and don't want to share or discuss your opinion, that's your perogative. I'm not at that level of advancement yet.

[Buddy]

Not at all. My point is I don't need to defend my position. I'm not trying to convince anyone. I understand modern definition of energy but it's such a charged word in this context. I've seen many many people talk about energy. And generally they don't know they they are talking about, or they do practices that harm them because they are not grounded in the physical body.

 

I am happy to discuss my experiences. I've got something, less than my teachers and more than my students. Behind my keyboard I can't tell where any of you are in that spectrum. But with Kumar's stuff, I know what's what and what isn't. I've been privy to folks that not everyone in our line has. But all that stuff is just gossip. Anything anyone wants to know about the training, I'm happy to tell. There are no secrets only things you don't know yet. If I tell you everything I know it's just neat info. If you don't practice and investigate with someone who can already do it, you might as well read it in a fortune cookie.

 

Look, I'm 50. Got a wonderful wife, great kids (all grown) and a pretty good life. My need to impress is long gone by.

[Pietro]

Pietro,

I am your senior. By many years. I know what Bruce teaches and I can readily duplicate it. No need for such defensiveness.

I don't mean to burst your bubble but all this energetic stuff, while cool sounding, is no aid to learning how to use martial arts. Everything from Gates to Gods teaches real and specific physical skills. My own students can duplicate them. But because there is a particular market for cool sounding stuff and Kumar can't teach martial arts anymore the current crowd likes esoteric information. Information is light years from knowledge and skill. I don't say this to piss you off because I've been where you are. Don't you think that the seniors that you see at workshops should be more...enlightened than they are? Don't you think Kumar would be in better health?

This is to take nothing away from him and his "system". But I don't see it being taught to where anyone can understand it. So when I hear people talk about things like "clearing the etheric body" I am dubious. I did this stuff a long time as did my seniors. Show me your cleared etheric body. I can readily show you internal power.

Thanks Buddy,

I know you are my senior. But I disagree that you "know what Bruce teaches".

 

What Bruce teaches those days is different from what he use to teach before. This is not said by me, but by Bruce himself, by Alan, and confirmed by Bill who was there.

 

You might know what Bruce teaches in spiralling. And still I have never been to two of his lessons which were equal so far. So you might discover new things.

 

And how much is this information going to become skill I suppose it depends on the practitioner.

But how much is this skill going to be useful in martial arts I really can't say. I am no martial artist. I have no interest in martial arts.

 

I did notice that while doing spiraling my body started moving faster, less predictably than before. And so I suspect that this should be useful in martial arts. You say it isn't (and you should know since this is an old technique). Bruce say it is. Who is right? I suspect I am the least person who can say. But my suspect is that it is. Yes, even if you are my senior, and your students can reproduce it all, and not because of this they are better martial artists.

 

And this is still speaking only about spiralling which I know you have done with Bruce, back in the good old days. But what about the new stuff.

The "esoteric" "cool sounding" stuff that Bruce is teaching now. Is "fourth space" (now doesn't that sound cool, and very esoteric!), the ability to feel the whole body not going to be useful at all. Even though we have been told they are the meat and bone of high level martial arts?

 

I would be surprised. Maybe I should become a high level martial artist to see if it would help me.

Or maybe you should try to learn it to see if it would help you. I just don't see none of us in the position to judge right now.

 

Your younger brother in the school,

Pietro

 

P.S. I have 3 exams, 1 conference, and 2000 km, between now and the 29th of November, so forgive me if I don't answer you straight away.

 

Don't you think that the seniors that you see at workshops should be more...enlightened than they are?

 

I think they are doing alright. I have seen myself being able to make peace with old things which were torturing me for years. The reason why I am not interestd in martial arts, for example, is that I dissolved the memories of when I was bullied as a kid. And the interest in MA left, just like that.

You see, one of the things that really attracted me in Bruce system was that Bruce, and people in general did not seem to try to pretend they were those holy people.

So, no, I am quite happy to see them being "normal" not holy or enlightened human beings. But is that what you are trying to become, and why you left Bruce?

 

Don't you think Kumar would be in better health?

When I shall be perfect I will start to judge other people's progress. For now my plate is already quite full.

[Buddy]

Ah, the indulgence of youth. I know Kumar is claiming that he's on his second decade of teaching. But where did it come from. From Liu? If you're happy to think that then I'm happy to have you do so.

 

"But I disagree that you "know what Bruce teaches".

 

Well how can you? You don't know what I know.

 

"This is not said by me, but by Bruce himself, by Alan, and confirmed by Bill who was there."

 

I know what Kumar says. I don't think I know your teacher but I'd be happy to have him show me his advancement. Bill? Bill Ryan? If so, what do you know of Bill's advancement? I might be shocked about Bill.

 

"I did notice that while doing spiraling my body started moving faster, less predictably than before."

 

Less predictably? Do you want your body to be out of your control and unpredictable? I found more access to my body and thereby more predictability.

 

"Bruce say it is. Who is right? I suspect I am the least person who can say. But my suspect is that it is. Yes, even if you are my senior, and your students can reproduce it all, and not because of this they are better martial artists."

 

Can you tell me someone of the current crop that can show me? Bruce can't any longer.

 

 

"Is "fourth space" (now doesn't that sound cool, and very esoteric!), the ability to feel the whole body not going to be useful at all. Even though we have been told they are the meat and bone of high level martial arts?"

 

I can feel my enitre body without this "fourth space." The meat and bone of martial arts is correct practice not some pseudo-etheric nonsense.

 

"I just don't see none of us in the position to judge right now."

 

Well, you're not in a position to judge perhaps. But you don't know about me. Or my contemporaries. Ask Bernie Langan.

 

"Your younger brother in the school."

 

Have you jumped ahead of your teacher? Did he bring you to Bruce? You would be my nephew but I am Yizong now.

 

 

 

"But what about the new stuff."

 

Ah, theres' the rub. Where did it come from. You think it's from Liu.

 

"So, no, I am quite happy to see them being "normal" not holy or enlightened human beings. But is that what you are trying to become, and why you left Bruce?"

 

Well we can't go here because that would bring up others peccadilloes. Normal is a relative term and there are things about others that you don't know. Not my idea of normal.

 

"When I shall be perfect I will start to judge other people's progress."

 

Well good on you. My bullshit detector is set lower than yours.

 

My teacher is Kumar's senior, not because of that, but because I'm interested in quality. I know people who studied with Liu's KF brothers and there are differences in the stories. I've spoke with those whom Bruce has been more candid with than he is usually with his paying customers.

 

But the bottom line is if you like it than it's fine for you. I have reservations that if you are being sold some "advanced" level if you haven't got the basics down, that you get what you want to hear rather than what you need. If you get to the States I'll give a free lesson and we can see who knows what. Or not.

 

Just,

Buddy

[forestofsouls]

Buddy,

 

It sounds like Internal Martial Arts as you've seen don't lead to 1) increased health over time or 2) any degree of wisdom. Do you see them as a waste of time?

[Spectrum]

I like spirals too. Maybe sometime we can spiral together.

 

 

 

"I did notice that while doing spiraling my body started moving faster, less predictably than before."

 

Less predictably? Do you want your body to be out of your control and unpredictable? I found more access to my body and thereby more predictability.

 

This seems a common divergence between "martial" spiral seekers, and "health" or "spiritual" spiral seekers.... I empathize w/ your frustration here Buddy, but honestly, if someone doesn't want to do the two person work associated with wisdom, it will always just been "talking zen"...

 

There is more effecient transfer of energy through spirals than just curves. Every move that works "effortlessly" is a compound of curves making up spirals. Even a jab and cross.

 

The funny thing here is the space between the hyper sprituals who try to make something physical spiritual, and the hyper physicals who try to make something spiritual physical.

 

Spectrum

Edited November 17, 2007 by Spectrum

[Spectrum]

I think I've posted this before but here's my teacher doing the Rooster from xingyi. This is how it should be done.

 

Watch how much this guys head does not move up and down much when he is moving horizontally. You would all be wise to observe this mans movement. It doesn't matter what style, it is his core movements that are refined.

 

Spectrum

Edited November 17, 2007 by Spectrum

[Pietro]

Ah, the indulgence of youth. I know Kumar is claiming that he's on his second decade of teaching. But where did it come from. From Liu? If you're happy to think that then I'm happy to have you do so.

 

"But I disagree that you "know what Bruce teaches".

 

Well how can you? You don't know what I know.

 

You assume Bruce is teaching ... the same ol' stuff. Or seem to have heard about it only from third sources. This is why I say you don't know that.

 

"This is not said by me, but by Bruce himself, by Alan, and confirmed by Bill who was there."

 

I know what Kumar says. I don't think I know your teacher but I'd be happy to have him show me his advancement. Bill? Bill Ryan? If so, what do you know of Bill's advancement? I might be shocked about Bill.

Yeah, Bill Ryan, he was at the workshop on using opening and closing in taoist meditation. Germany 2006.

 

"I did notice that while doing spiraling my body started moving faster, less predictably than before."

 

Less predictably? Do you want your body to be out of your control and unpredictable? I found more access to my body and thereby more predictability.

Nice game of words. There are (at least) two forms of being unpredictable. One happens when the body have convulsions, this is unpredictable, and of course I am not refering to that. The one I refer to is when you let the body follow the energy. As such the body is less predictable from the common everyday consciousnes. Yet the movements are still clean, well defined, and generally you don't "bump into thigs", as you would do if you simply let the body move randomly. I'll be happy to show you what I mean, if and when we meet. Provided you don't expect me to use that in combat. As I said, I am no martial artist.

 

 

"Bruce say it is. Who is right? I suspect I am the least person who can say. But my suspect is that it is. Yes, even if you are my senior, and your students can reproduce it all, and not because of this they are better martial artists."

 

Can you tell me someone of the current crop that can show me? Bruce can't any longer.

No, but you might want to ask Alan, my teacher, and he might be able to help you on this. But you are right that the focus of the school is no longer martial arts.

 

I can feel my enitre body without this "fourth space." The meat and bone of martial arts is correct practice not some pseudo-etheric nonsense.

...and correct practice is rooted in study of what you don't know.

Not trashing it, out of contempt.

 

"I just don't see none of us in the position to judge right now."

 

Well, you're not in a position to judge perhaps. But you don't know about me. Or my contemporaries. Ask Bernie Langan.

 

Sure, if I ever see Bernie Langan, which I never met, I shall ask him if Buddy Trip is in the position to judge Bruce teachings, even the one he has never been exposed to.

 

"Your younger brother in the school."

 

Have you jumped ahead of your teacher? Did he bring you to Bruce? You would be my nephew but I am Yizong now.

Hmm, I was studying with Bruce before meeting Alan, if this is what you mean.

 

"But what about the new stuff."

 

Ah, theres' the rub. Where did it come from. You think it's from Liu.

Yes, I do (apart Dragon & Tiger). At least in the sense that Liu either re-teached it to Bruce, or reorganised it, or sent Bruce to meet the person that would teach it to him. But I am very open to be corrected in any of this, if you have better information.

 

"So, no, I am quite happy to see them being "normal" not holy or enlightened human beings. But is that what you are trying to become, and why you left Bruce?"

 

Well we can't go here because that would bring up others peccadilloes. Normal is a relative term and there are things about others that you don't know. Not my idea of normal.

Ok, I'll respect your necessity for privacy.

 

"When I shall be perfect I will start to judge other people's progress."

 

Well good on you. My bullshit detector is set lower than yours.

fair enough

My teacher is Kumar's senior, not because of that, but because I'm interested in quality. I know people who studied with Liu's KF brothers and there are differences in the stories. I've spoke with those whom Bruce has been more candid with than he is usually with his paying customers.

I'll be very interested in knowing those different stories. But I do reserve the right to decide by myself which to consider more genuine.

But the bottom line is if you like it than it's fine for you. I have reservations that if you are being sold some "advanced" level if you haven't got the basics down, that you get what you want to hear rather than what you need. If you get to the States I'll give a free lesson and we can see who knows what. Or not.

Thank you very much. I will happily accept your free lesson when I'll be in the same city.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Pietro

[Spectrum]

The meat and bone of martial arts is correct practice not some pseudo-etheric nonsense.

 

Dislocation is a effortlessly etheric spiral.

[Spectrum]

The other day I spiraled for like an hour straight, crazy kine, and when I found wuji again there was more movement than moving, it was like sitting in a jacuzzi tub. Didn't feel the same as if I was jogging for an hour, I'm glad I know the drills, the methods, etc, but I'm also glad I know how to carve that away in a practice on the beach. It's always nice after martial arts practice to just melt away into the ocean. Haaaaaaaaaaa

Edited November 17, 2007 by Spectrum

[Buddy]

"It sounds like Internal Martial Arts as you've seen don't lead to 1) increased health over time or 2) any degree of wisdom. Do you see them as a waste of time?"

 

Not at all. I believe they do.

 

"You assume Bruce is teaching ... the same ol' stuff. Or seem to have heard about it only from third sources. This is why I say you don't know that."

 

Again, you don't know what I know. Your comments are unfounded.

 

"Yeah, Bill Ryan, he was at the workshop on using opening and closing in taoist meditation. Germany 2006.

 

Ah...ok. That's all I need to know.

 

 

"...and correct practice is rooted in study of what you don't know. "

 

Ask on the Yahoo Taoist Water Tradition about what I know and what my reputation is. You don't know what I know.

 

"Sure, if I ever see Bernie Langan, which I never met, I shall ask him if Buddy Trip is in the position to judge Bruce teachings, even the one he has never been exposed to."

 

It's Tripp. You might be disappointed in Bernie has to say about Bruce.

 

"At least in the sense that Liu either re-teached it to Bruce, or reorganised it, or sent Bruce to meet the person that would teach it to him. But I am very open to be corrected in any of this, if you have better information."

 

Well, I do. You don't really want to know but here's a for instance. Gates came from Zhang Yizhung, a student of Wang Shujin. There's more but that's enough for you, you'll come up with some excuse not to believe it.

 

 

"Ok, I'll respect your necessity for privacy."

 

It's not my privacy, I'm an open book. It's so as to not gossip about others in public.

[rain]

................

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[Spectrum]

Funny thing this embeded thumbnail "universe" is the pictogram I chose for my business card.

 

Curious what type of business? Gutters?

 

btw space between? tell us more...

 

Consider:

 

Standing Upright, or Floating in the Ocean. Between this space, is the Beach. Travel in any medium is not travel between, it seems.... the music of the body in kind rhymes with the music of the mind. Movement, In Time. Space requires Navigational principles of Whole Body Mind.

 

instantaneous beams

omni om oooo mmnnn

 

iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

In the space between

gravity leaves it seams

overcoming inertias screams

dreaming extreme gleams

 

angels sing angle streams

given to being taken, me

the one rof team

fetal fractal funk freestyle

 

Do a 180!

turn sound around me

11 22 45 90's

inside out wind winding

outside in wind unwind me

 

...

 

Spectrum

[rain]

............

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[Spectrum]

"I haven't being practicing tai chi for very long, so your eye is probably much keaner than mine. From my perspective, tai chi also utilizes spiralling, but it is much more 'hidden'. "

 

From what I can discern so far it seems this spiral element is more consciously lended into the form only after the core movements are developed, once the core movements of footwork and hip orbiting is physically grasped, and can be manifested regularlly in pushing hands, the spiral extensions of the arm/hand movements become connected to the torso spring, and when "sung", is much more apparent to the practitioner, some might even call it common sense from dropping into a "ready" position, as the arms do seem to "fill in the spaces between" the static "13 postures" through routes of movement that are most effeicnt to move through, not "against", this is similar to any "fork" position in strategy that allows you to cycle and support your efforts at the same time. It's almost as if the form is meant as a guide to get the water in your body to cycle w/ gravity in certain intervals and routes that are condusive to tuning the functioning of the whole organism.

 

Simply by fine tuning how the joints (structure) and muscles/ligaments (mind) are suspended together in "sung". There is a WIDE range of possible textures and stylistic differences. Ultimately though, a Solution of mind & body. Floating. Ready in Readilessness.

 

Perhaps this is why a movement like grasp/comb sparrows/peacock tail is important to understanding the "vocabulary" of taichi, or wuji to discerning the effectiveness of martial art in general. Effortlessness is moreimportant than the apperance of "power". For instance the physical EXPERIENCE between WuJi and Empti/Full, can feel effortless, but timed correctly when someone has a grip on you, the movement story transforms the energy around, through their elbow.

 

BTW could you describe this "holding the teacups"? Just curious.

 

Yes. Start palm up. Hold a cup, imaginary or real.

 

Rotate your hand palmup under your armpit

 

Continue spiraling the hand outward and up[ward] in front of you

 

To maintain the upright position and continue the spiral you must now spiral the hand in and down, returning to it's original position.

 

You could say this is like the "wrist mobius" fig 8 of the arm.

 

Experiment w/ one or botharms, in sequence or alternating.

 

Once you feel coordinated w/ the basic pattern, lead the movements by rotating your hips, draw the hands through the movements from the center of yourself. Water loves to move in waves.

 

Serving Tea? Keep the hand in a central columb and walk around in a circle while constantly reorienting your arm so as to not spill the tea!

 

Spectrum

Edited November 18, 2007 by Spectrum

[Buddy]

Well, it is not merely this. You must do so with a relaxed-and-aligned-with-gravity structure that is intenally extended. In other words a constant state of "ready to exhibit pengjin". Otherwise it's simply waving one's arms in the air.

[Spectrum]

Naturally.

 

492

357

816

[Oolong Rabbit]

 

BTW could you describe this "holding the teacups"? Just curious.

 

Yes. Start palm up. Hold a cup, imaginary or real.

 

Rotate your hand palmup under your armpit

 

Continue spiraling the hand outward and up[ward] in front of you

 

To maintain the upright position and continue the spiral you must now spiral the hand in and down, returning to it's original position.

 

You could say this is like the "wrist mobius" fig 8 of the arm.

 

Experiment w/ one or botharms, in sequence or alternating.

 

Once you feel coordinated w/ the basic pattern, lead the movements by rotating your hips, draw the hands through the movements from the center of yourself. Water loves to move in waves.

 

Serving Tea? Keep the hand in a central columb and walk around in a circle while constantly reorienting your arm so as to not spill the tea!

 

Spectrum

 

That sounds like a cool exercise. I believe I have seen similar movements with a tai chi Ball form on youtube before. This exercise may be very beneficial to me. My taichi instructor informed me on thursday that one of my shoulders is still quite closed up. I actually have one shoulder that is visibly higher when I look in the mirror. The higher shoulder seems to be the one with the tension in it. I am thinking this may help open it up.

 

Thanks!

[Taomeow]

Naturally.

 

492

357

816

 

Yeah!! as in, North, Southwest, East, Southeast, Center, Northwest, West, Southeast, South. The most natural thing in the world.

 

If one can feel well enough to get the above inside one's own body, he or she can't execute a non-spiraling Chinese martial move anymore than most people can bite off their own ears.

[Spectrum]

That sounds like a cool exercise. I believe I have seen similar movements with a tai chi Ball form on youtube before. This exercise may be very beneficial to me. My taichi instructor informed me on thursday that one of my shoulders is still quite closed up. I actually have one shoulder that is visibly higher when I look in the mirror. The higher shoulder seems to be the one with the tension in it. I am thinking this may help open it up.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Sifu Rob's sticks are really neat for simple exercises like this, they kinda "twirl" in your hand as you move through movements in ways that suggest the path of least resistance.

 

I won't say they are a replacement for quality chi gung or gung fu practice, especially not the value of a practice partner, but for people who feel compelled to "tinker" in their off time, like any jazz player, it's a fun way to diddle w/ your noodle, and just feel around w/o preconceived notions of what it should be/feel/experienced like.

 

There are many mediums to practice, for instance, holding the teacups, in a pool, just FEELS different, than the thin air.

 

PM your snail mail I'll request some stick samples be sent your way to experiment with.

 

Spectrum

Edited November 18, 2007 by Spectrum

[Spectrum]

i have no business

 

im just scrubbin floors

 

so in a way you nailed it

 

dancer

 

one more thing

 

about "the space between"

 

my gay friend already answered that puzzle by offering his dream

 

that ended with the question:

 

"what is the weight difference between a pig and jesus?"

 

 

One Legged Crane to Sitting Eagle

 

Who Weighs The Whole?

 

Look Above, Look Below

 

 

“Keep Your Eye Upon the Donut” (Optimist’s Creed)

The Mayflower coffee and donut shops (1930s-1970s) used this "Optimist's Creed" as its motto.

 

The poem pre-dates the Mayflower.

 

15 April 1904, New York Sun, pg. 6, col. 5:

Their Points of View.

'Twixt optimist and pessimist

The difference is droll;

The optimist the doughnut sees -

The pessimist the hole.

 

13 January 1929, Charleston (WV) Daily Mail, pg. 6, col. 6:

Sign in Quarrier street restaurant. Advice for those who drink coffee and eat "sinkers."

 

"As you ramble through Life, Brother,

Whatever be your goal.

Keep your eye upon the doughnut,

And not upon the hole."

 

2 October 1930, Progress Review (La Porte City, Iowa), pg. 1, col. 6:

Have you tried McBride's Doughnuts? They contain Youma whole wheat flour. As you ramble on through Life, Brother, whatever be your Goal, keep your eye upon the Doughnut and not upon the hole.

 

21 December 1930, New York Times, pg. 48:

DOUGHNUT HOLES

ENGAGE EXPERTS

 

Small-Hole Cake Is by Far

the Best for Dunking

One Declares

 

To the Editor of The New York Times:

(...)

In conclusion I quote the following gem of philosophy, which not only discloses a truly Aristotelian understanding but also relegates the hole to its rightful place:

 

As you ramble on through life, brother,

Whatever be your goal,

Keep your eye upon the doughnut

And not upon the hole.

 

ZOLTAN GOTTLIEB,

New York, Dec. 16, 1930.

 

12 October 1953, Los Angeles Times, pg. 2:

"Remember the doughnut shop that once was at Broadway and 8th St.? On the outside of the building this little ditty: "As you journey on through life, brother, whatever be your goal, keep your eye upon the doughnut, and not upon the hole." - L. F. Kunstman, Los Angeles.

 

20 January 1972, Christian Science Monitor, pg. 10:

Doughnuts: the hole story

(...)

Way back in 1932, FDR and Herbert Hoover added a homey touch to their campaigns by eating doughnuts at whistle-stop rallies. WIth the U.S. in the depths of a depression, both candidates, by coincidence, worked the "Optimists' Creed" into their speeches on several occasions...

 

As you ramble on thru life, brother,

Whatever be your goal,

Keep your eye upon the doughnut,

And not upon the hole!

 

6 May 1981, New York Times, pg. C4:

How Doughnuts Won America

By SALLY L. STEINBERG

(...)

When I was a child we always had boxes of doughnuts from the Mayflower coffee shops my grandfather had started. The doughnuts wore icing costumes as pink as ballet tutus, as green as leprechauns, and they were delicious.

 

On the box was a quaint insignia of two men in medieval jester's outfits, back to back, looking out at the doughnuts they held, one fat, the othe thin. Old-style print between them said: "As you ramble on through life, brother,/ Whatever be your goal,/ Keep your eye upon the doughnut,/ And not upon the hole." This poem, found in an old book, was my grandfather's philosophy.

 

8 April 1992, New York Times, pg. C14:

Bygone Food, Chock Full o' Memories

 

On the other hand, most fans of the Mayflower shops best remember whole doughnuts, not only because of the company's slogan: "As you ramble through life, keep your eye on the doughnut and not on the hole." The texture, the marriage of soft and crisp - have the Mayflower doughnuts ever been bettered? All kinds of people think not.

 

28 February 1999, New York Times, pg. CY2:

F.Y.I.

Eyes on the Doughnut

 

Q. Many years ago, after ice skating in Central Park, my parents would take my brother, my sister and me to a little coffee shop on the southeast corner of 59th Street and Fifth Avenue. On the wall were these words: As you ramble on through life, brother,/Whatever be your goal,/Keep your eye upon the doughnut,/And not upon the hole. Why?

 

A. You were in a Mayflower Doughnut shop, one of the last in the city, actually, and that bit of doggerel was the personal motto of the founder, Adolph Levitt. Known as the Optimist's Creed, the words were printed on each box of doughnuts sold in the Mayflower shops, where they were framed by two cartoon jesters, one frowning at a thin doughnut with a large hole, the other grinning at a plump one with almost no hole at all.

 

Mr. Levitt, an immigrant from Russia, first saw the anonymous verse in a picture frame he bought in a dime store, according to his granddaughter, Sally Levitt Seinberg.

(...)

...in 1931 he opened the first Mayflower doughnut shop. (...) Mayflower shops, all bearing the Optimist's Creed, dotted the city for decades, but had all but disappeared by the 1970's.

 

(Trademark)

Word Mark AS YOU RAMBLE ON THRU LIFE BROTHER, WHATEVER BE YOUR GOAL; KEEP YOUR EYE UPON THE DOUGHNUT AND NOT UPON THE HOLE

Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: DOUGHNUTS. FIRST USE: 19490125. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19490125

Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS

Design Search Code 020116 020117 020701 020906 080109 240102 240103

Serial Number 71676326

Filing Date November 9, 1954

Current Filing Basis 1A

Original Filing Basis 1A

Registration Number 0617266

Registration Date December 6, 1955

Owner (REGISTRANT) MAYFLOWER DOUGHNUT CORPORATION CORPORATION NEW YORK 393 7TH AVE. NEW YORK 1 NEW YORK

(LAST LISTED OWNER) KERRY INGREDIENTS, INC. CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF DELAWARE 1501 FRANKLIN AVENUE GARDEN CITY NEW YORK 11530

Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED

Attorney of Record NEIL M ZIPKIN

Type of Mark TRADEMARK

Register PRINCIPAL

Affidavit Text SECT 15.

Renewal 2ND RENEWAL 19970206

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Edited November 18, 2007 by Spectrum

[Pietro]

"You assume Bruce is teaching ... the same ol' stuff. Or seem to have heard about it only from third sources. This is why I say you don't know that."

 

Again, you don't know what I know. Your comments are unfounded.

 

"Yeah, Bill Ryan, he was at the workshop on using opening and closing in taoist meditation. Germany 2006.

 

Ah...ok. That's all I need to know.

 

Ok, so why don't you just ask Bill.

Ask him if Bruce has been teaching new material. Material that you were never taught. Either directly or through any of your numerous contacts.

 

If you mail me could you please cc. me? My gmail account is pietros (sorry for not spelling it out, but I try to avoid spiders).

 

"...and correct practice is rooted in study of what you don't know. "

Ask on the Yahoo Taoist Water Tradition about what I know and what my reputation is.

You keep on confusing form for content. Before you expected people who have done meditation to "look" enlightened. What for me would be disgraceful and a shame for you seem to be a great honor. Now you use your reputation to back up your statements. Your statements and information should back up your statements. Reputation has nothing to do with that.

 

You don't know what I know.

Correct, I assume you don't know what Bruce is teaching for the first time. If you can prove me wrong I would love to stand corrected.

It's Tripp.Ok.

 

"At least in the sense that Liu either re-teached it to Bruce, or reorganised it, or sent Bruce to meet the person that would teach it to him. But I am very open to be corrected in any of this, if you have better information."

 

Well, I do. You don't really want to know but here's a for instance. Gates came from Zhang Yizhung, a student of Wang Shujin. There's more but that's enough for you, you'll come up with some excuse not to believe it.

Interesting, thanks. Don't be too rapid in jumping to conclusions about what I would do and what I wouldn't.

Now, hasn't Bruce studied with Wang Shujin before studying with Liu?

 

It's not my privacy, I'm an open book. It's so as to not gossip about others in public.

In this (and only in this) we are quite similar.

 

Pietro

[Buddy]

Look Pietro,

I'm done trying to convince you. You like what you are learning, fine. When you want to know more of the truth you can do your own research. It's all there, you just have to look. When you see one lie, you might expect more.

Bruce's system doesn't come from Liu. Liu was primarily a Yin Fu bagua master. Zhu Baojian still lives and teaches in Beijing, he's been very candid about his senior brother. No taoist immortal stuff, no "guardian of the empire." Liu had great gongfu but he didn't teach it to Bruce. That said, Bruce was a serious martial artist in his own right. If you like all the stories he's told, try The Wandering Taoist. It's another neat bit of fiction.

Your cup on this matter is full, so drink deeply.

[Oolong Rabbit]

Sifu Rob's sticks are really neat for simple exercises like this, they kinda "twirl" in your hand as you move through movements in ways that suggest the path of least resistance.

 

I won't say they are a replacement for quality chi gung or gung fu practice, especially not the value of a practice partner, but for people who feel compelled to "tinker" in their off time, like any jazz player, it's a fun way to diddle w/ your noodle, and just feel around w/o preconceived notions of what it should be/feel/experienced like.

 

There are many mediums to practice, for instance, holding the teacups, in a pool, just FEELS different, than the thin air.

 

PM your snail mail I'll request some stick samples be sent your way to experiment with.

 

Spectrum

 

Hi Spectrum,

 

Received the package. Thanks a bunch man. I was a bit skeptical a first, but these kung fu sticks are kind of addictive. The kids enjoy them too, and actually seem like naturals with the movements. The larger stick really moves the shoulder socket which is what my left side needs. The smaller stick works the wrists and tendons. I may bring thar one in to work. I haven't had my "brain energized" like David Caradine yet, but I will keep trying . Thanks again!