Is Nirvikalpa Samadhi actually a dead end?

[Jeff]

Taoism offers another, gentler way. Tai chi. With no burn. No need to hurt yourself!

 

As I said above, I am not advocating one way or another, but in the TTC, it is described here...

 

CHAPTER 52 (SFH version)

 

The Ten Thousand Things are born of the Universe, the Universe is born from the Dao. From whence the Dao came from, I do not know, but I know it exists. It is the Mother of Heaven and Earth.

 

In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth. The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it. In silence and peace, one can feel and sense the mystery. Be forever at one, do only what has to be done and then remain at one.

 

....

The increasing realization of "silence and peace" can have great value for some. Always diving increasingly deeper...

[Jetsun]

Nirvikalpa samadhi is the highest form of personal experience, so you could stay it is the highest form of egoic experience.

 

The value of it I guess depends on where it leads, if you were to get stuck and assume that that is it or go searching to continually recreate it then it hasn't been of great benefit, rather it was a hindrance. But another perspective such as that of Nagarjuna is that the absolute reality or Buddha nature is trapped inside of us like a lamp sitting in a vase (the vase representing the afflictions) and samadhi has the capacity to punch holes in the vase and if you continually punch holes in a vase in the end it will smash. 

[Bindi]

Nirvikalpa samadhi is the highest form of personal experience, so you could stay it is the highest form of egoic experience.

 

The value of it I guess depends on where it leads, if you were to get stuck and assume that that is it or go searching to continually recreate it then it hasn't been of great benefit, rather it was a hindrance. But another perspective such as that of Nagarjuna is that the absolute reality or Buddha nature is trapped inside of us like a lamp sitting in a vase (the vase representing the afflictions) and samadhi has the capacity to punch holes in the vase and if you continually punch holes in a vase in the end it will smash. 

 

Jetsun, can you tell me where to find more on this perspective of Nagarjuna?

[Jetsun]

Jetsun, can you tell me where to find more on this perspective of Nagarjuna?

 

Its in Nagarjuna's 'In Praise of Dharmadhatu' 

 

http://www.bodhicitta.net/In%20Praise%20of%20the%20Dharmadhatu.htm

[dwai]

Is Nirvikalpa Samadhi actually the Height of Divine Consciousness or is it in fact just an ingenious spiritual trap and a dead end?

 

 

 "War Nirvikalpa Samadhi - what is it good for?" Elaine

Why would it be a spiritual trap or a dead end? It only brings home two realizations.

 

1. There is only that one...no other (no separation between people, things, religions, languages, skin color, animals)
2. There is really no thing. You are I and I am essentially empty of phenomenal existence. The world as we know it is just a vivid dream. 

Once these two realizations occur (experientially), there is no more negativity or fear or anger or envy etc. There is only love, tranquility and bliss. When we are in presence of such masters, it also influences us to become that way.

[Bindi]

Its in Nagarjuna's 'In Praise of Dharmadhatu' 

 

http://www.bodhicitta.net/In%20Praise%20of%20the%20Dharmadhatu.htm

 

 

 

6. If one perforates the surface of the vase,

Whatever holes are made in whichever directions,

Through those and in precisely those directions

Light will shine, as is its nature to.

 

7. At the moment when the vajra-like samadhi

Is able to obliterate the vase,

At that very moment the light burning inside

Will shine throughout the reaches of all space.

 

Vajra-like samadhi is at the end of the ten bhumis. Is the state of nirvikalpa samadhi one in which the ten bhumi's can be perfected?

[dwai]

Nirvikalpa samadhi is the highest form of personal experience, so you could stay it is the highest form of egoic experience.

 

The value of it I guess depends on where it leads, if you were to get stuck and assume that that is it or go searching to continually recreate it then it hasn't been of great benefit, rather it was a hindrance. But another perspective such as that of Nagarjuna is that the absolute reality or Buddha nature is trapped inside of us like a lamp sitting in a vase (the vase representing the afflictions) and samadhi has the capacity to punch holes in the vase and if you continually punch holes in a vase in the end it will smash. 

Well it is not. Because it is not a "personal" experience. On the contrary, it is a rather "person-less" experience. 

[dwai]

Taoism offers another, gentler way. Tai chi. With no burn. No need to hurt yourself!

Samadhi is also a gentle way. Those who have skillful guidance can go there without extreme effort. In fact, extreme effort is counter productive.

[dwai]

gatito, can you give me a link to another definition?

Well I'm no gatito, but here goes --

 

vikalpa - imagination/mental movement

samadhi - meditative absorption

 

So nirvikapla means without mental movement or imagination.  What is there if there is no mental movement? No thoughts? When we are meditating on this, it is nirvikalpa samadhi. When we enter meditating absorption with a mental object/thought/image, it is savikalpa samadhi.

[Jetsun]

Well it is not. Because it is not a "personal" experience. On the contrary, it is a rather "person-less" experience. 

 

Samadhi can have different meanings depending on who you talk to. The sense of "I" can be very subtle, even if you transcend the limitations of the physical body and identify with the entire cosmos there can still remain a sense of "I", it has just stretched out over everything. If the "I" was completely gone then it wouldn't be a temporary experience.

[dwai]

Samadhi can have different meanings depending on who you talk to. The sense of "I" can be very subtle, even if you transcend the limitations of the physical body and identify with the entire cosmos there can still remain a sense of "I", it has just stretched out over everything. If the "I" was completely gone then it wouldn't be a temporary experience.

So why do we have to take a Buddhist's understanding/interpretation of Nirvikalpa samadhi as being the final word? The "I" that goes away is the relative I (Egoic I). Buddhists don't seem to understand this. The impersonal, undifferentiated consciousness cannot go away. The Egoic I can never fully disappear as long as there is the physical body. But it will remain in a diminished capacity (enough to maintain the basic needs of the body) until the body itself is no longer needed.

 

And before we go further into a Buddhist interpretation vs Hindu traditional description, please remember this is the Hindu sub-forum (not the Buddhist one)

[Apech]

6. If one perforates the surface of the vase,

Whatever holes are made in whichever directions,

Through those and in precisely those directions

Light will shine, as is its nature to.

 

7. At the moment when the vajra-like samadhi

Is able to obliterate the vase,

At that very moment the light burning inside

Will shine throughout the reaches of all space.

 

Vajra-like samadhi is at the end of the ten bhumis. Is the state of nirvikalpa samadhi one in which the ten bhumi's can be perfected?

 

 

I'm fairly sure the answer is no.

[dwai]

Tai chi practice is a great training for the spirit and mind. When you merge the body, mind and spirit, you are refining your chi and moving closer towards Tao. Don't know if this spirit refinement is the same as what is described as samadhi.

The Emptiness we cultivate in taiji, when we are immersed in it such that there is no thought or object, is what nirvikalpa samadhi is.

[3bob]

aka Parasiva

[Bindi]

Why would it be a spiritual trap or a dead end? It only brings home two realizations.

 

1. There is only that one...no other (no separation between people, things, religions, languages, skin color, animals)
2. There is really no thing. You are I and I am essentially empty of phenomenal existence. The world as we know it is just a vivid dream. 

Once these two realizations occur (experientially), there is no more negativity or fear or anger or envy etc. There is only love, tranquility and bliss. When we are in presence of such masters, it also influences us to become that way.

 

These two realisations and the consequences that flow from them are remarkably similar to neo-advaita thinking, which I would also see as a spiritual trap and a dead end.  

Edited April 6, 2016 by Bindi

[Bindi]

If you do not resonate with such an approach, I understand your point. But, maybe another analogy to think about it like working out with exercising... If you want to get stronger and in shape, you push until the muscles burn...

 

If you're talking about confronting false identifications until it hurts, then I would agree. If you mean pushing energy until it hurts or burns somehow then I wouldn't agree, as I find that energy either naturally flows into the cleared spaces, or occasionally needs to be directed in a gentle way.

 

As I said above, I am not advocating one way or another, but in the TTC, it is described here... CHAPTER 52 (SFH version) The Ten Thousand Things are born of the Universe, the Universe is born from the Dao. From whence the Dao came from, I do not know, but I know it exists. It is the Mother of Heaven and Earth. In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth. The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it. In silence and peace, one can feel and sense the mystery. Be forever at one, do only what has to be done and then remain at one.

 

.... The increasing realization of "silence and peace" can have great value for some. Always diving increasingly deeper...

 

In neidan terms, which is the only Daoist form I am interested in, silence and peace don't create or fill Dan Tians, and don't lead to the creation of the golden or immortal body, so no, I don't resonate with this approach. I agree though that it may have great value for some. 

 

"Do only what has to be done and then remain at one" - How long is a piece of string? How much work has to be done before you can remain at one? Why would anyone do more than this? But we might differ in how much we think needs to be done. 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Bindi

[roger]

Bindi,

 

I've read your quote before, it's from Sri Chinmoy, I was gonna become a disciple of his many years ago.

 

I've experienced Samadhi so I can speak from first hand experience. I don't believe I've found enlightenment, but I've experienced the bliss and love that supposedly come with enlightenment many times.

 

I can tell you that the times I've been in that state most deeply, I described it as feeling "all the joy and all the love there is in life."

 

I thought that the word "a googleplex" (ten raised to the power of a google) wasn't a big enough word to express what I felt.

 

Some quotes are:

 

Ramakrishna said that "God-consciousness is ten million times more blissful than sexual experience."

 

And Paramhansa Yogananda said that cosmic-consciousness is "infinitely more real, tangible, and joyous than all the sensory and super-sensory perceptions combined."

 

My point is that the words you quoted aren't nonsense- there definitely IS such a thing as "ecstasy" or "bliss." But in my experience it's not the same thing as pleasure. For example, it's not like have a very, very, very intense orgasm. It's more a QUALITY of joy.

 

Imagine if your child was kidnapped, and a few weeks later they were rescued, found alive and well. You might think to yourself, "I couldn't possibly be happier. This is the most wonderful thing ever. I feel supreme joy!"

 

But it would be more a QUALITY of joy than a QUANTITY.

[3bob]

if one trys to intellectually categorize, deduce and judge a "beyond" the mind using the tools of mind one will get no further than the mind and its often pac-man like chewing... 

[Bindi]

Bindi,

 

I've read your quote before, it's from Sri Chinmoy, I was gonna become a disciple of his many years ago.

 

I've experienced Samadhi so I can speak from first hand experience. I don't believe I've found enlightenment, but I've experienced the bliss and love that supposedly come with enlightenment many times.

 

I can tell you that the times I've been in that state most deeply, I described it as feeling "all the joy and all the love there is in life."

 

I thought that the word "a googleplex" (ten raised to the power of a google) wasn't a big enough word to express what I felt.

 

Some quotes are:

 

Ramakrishna said that "God-consciousness is ten million times more blissful than sexual experience."

 

And Paramhansa Yogananda said that cosmic-consciousness is "infinitely more real, tangible, and joyous than all the sensory and super-sensory perceptions combined."

 

My point is that the words you quoted aren't nonsense- there definitely IS such a thing as "ecstasy" or "bliss." But in my experience it's not the same thing as pleasure. For example, it's not like have a very, very, very intense orgasm. It's more a QUALITY of joy.

 

Imagine if your child was kidnapped, and a few weeks later they were rescued, found alive and well. You might think to yourself, "I couldn't possibly be happier. This is the most wonderful thing ever. I feel supreme joy!"

 

But it would be more a QUALITY of joy than a QUANTITY.

 

I don't think this samadhi or the desciption of it is nonsense, I am more questioning it's value in furthering spiritual  growth. From your perspective, was there a gain beyond the feelings at the time of experiencing it? 

[Bud Jetsun]

Isn't going deeper just entering into a blissful temporary state more deeply?

 

Can work be done at any samadhi level to remove ignorance about the nature of one’s self?

 

Might the ego self even be strengthened by one's ability to enter this state?  

 

 

Nirvana is timeless to the limit of a humans ability to know it, as a humans ability to know time comes from the rate at which thoughts pass through the mind. 

 

One second of Nirvana is more life experience enriching than the previous summation of all non-Nirvana life experiences. 

 

After even a second of Nirvana a being lives as one who is aware there is something incredibly beautiful that can't be removed from them without there own consent and can move them to tears of joy instantly from merely pondering the memory. 

 

You have never experienced a moment of less Nirvana than you already have at this moment, yet it's awareness is hidden behind the minds incessant urges to be clinging to some set of thoughts arising from some pointless and optional internal dialogue.  Nirvana is an effortless whole peace inside, just enjoying and appreciating this one moments perception of phenomena with no further categorization or judgement or labeling. 

 

Just as choosing to drawn another breath is not required, neither is experiencing Nirvana or enjoying awareness of it's nature.  However, as a being has some period in this form to embrace some life experiences prior to lifes inevitable conclusion, Nirvana is technically useless like all the other actions a human can choose or not choose to experience.  That said, it remains the singular most formative and enriching life experience every being should choose to experience at least once.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[3bob]

"Self" does not gain Self, Self does not lose Self, Self is not limited to even the smartest methods of a self or workable ego that thinks it must "gain" this or that body...

Edited April 6, 2016 by 3bob

[gatito]

 

 

Ramana? 

 

 

 In his writings Bhagavan has said that self-enquiry leads to the experience of aham sphurana, and that abidance in the aham sphurana leads on to a full realisation of the sahaja nirvikalpa state. He was less positive about kevala nirvikalpa samadhi, often saying that it was a temporary state, and that the mind would eventually re-emerge from it. He generally tried to discourage devotees from trying to reach this state since he regarded it as something akin to an unproductive detour.(28) One can infer from his remarks and writings that self-enquiry, properly undertaken, bypasses this kevala nirvikalpa state completely and reaches the sahaja state via the alternate route of the aham sphurana experience.

 

 When the Heart is permanently open, the world, which was previously assumed to be external, is experienced not as separate names and forms, but as one's own Self, as the immanent Brahman. In nirvikalpa samadhi, according to Bhagavan, the Heart temporarily opens to admit the mind, but then closes again. Thus the nirvikalpa experience of the Self is both limited (in so far as it is temporary) and 'internal'. Because the Heart remains closed, the sahaja experience of the world being Brahman is absent.

 

In Ulladu Narpadu, Upadesa Undiyarand Vichara Sangraham Bhagavan makes the point that it is self-enquiry that leads to aham sphurana. Nowhere is it mentioned in these texts that other methods lead to this state.

 

http://davidgodman.o...h/iandii2.shtml

 

 

 

In fact, that's not Ramana so again you're quoting someone who isn't able to speak directly from first-hand experience...

 

That's David Godman quoting what he believes that Ramana was attempting to convey (in various different specific contexts...).

 

However, it's interesting to note that Ramana may have conflated sahaja with nirvikalpa...

 

It's also interesting to note that some people consider that Ramana was the father of neoadvaita...

[Bindi]

Nirvana is timeless to the limit of a humans ability to know it, as a humans ability to know time comes from the rate at which thoughts pass through the mind. 

 

One second of Nirvana is more life experience enriching than the previous summation of all non-Nirvana life experiences. 

 

After even a second of Nirvana a being lives as one who is aware there is something incredibly beautiful that can't be removed from them without there own consent and can move them to tears of joy instantly from merely pondering the memory. 

 

You have never experienced a moment of less Nirvana than you already have at this moment, yet it's awareness is hidden behind the minds incessant urges to be clinging to some set of thoughts arising from some pointless and optional internal dialogue.  Nirvana is an effortless whole peace inside, just enjoying and appreciating this one moments perception of phenomena with no further categorization or judgement or labeling. 

 

Just as choosing to drawn another breath is not required, neither is experiencing Nirvana or enjoying awareness of it's nature.  However, as a being has some period in this form to embrace some life experiences prior to lifes inevitable conclusion, Nirvana is technically useless like all the other actions a human can choose or not choose to experience.  That said, it remains the singular most formative and enriching life experience every being should choose to experience at least once.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

Bud, nirvana is not an impermanent state to be fondly remembered and enjoyed occasionally, it is an absolute and final achievement that is so very much more profound than this.

[Bindi]

 

In fact, that's not Ramana so again you're quoting someone who isn't able to speak directly from first-hand experience...

 

True enough. From the same article:

 

C: Bhagavan, you said yesterday that there exists in the human body a hole as small as a pinpoint, from which consciousness always bubbles out to the body. Is it open or shut? 

B: It is always shut, being the knot of ignorance which ties the body to consciousness. When the mind drops away in the temporaryKevala Nirvikalpa it opens but shuts again. In Sahaja it remains always open. 

C: How is it during the experience of 'I-I' consciousness? 

B: This consciousness is the key which opens it permanently. 

 

 

That's David Godman quoting what he believes that Ramana was attempting to convey (in various different specific contexts...).

 

However, it's interesting to note that Ramana may have conflated sahaja with nirvikalpa...

 

It's also interesting to note that some people consider that Ramana was the father of neoadvaita...

 

I would reckon that Ramana being so adamant that there is something to continue searching for immediately disqualifies him as a neo-advaitan himself. 

[dwai]

These two realisations and the consequences that flow from them are remarkably similar to neo-advaita thinking, which I would also see as a spiritual trap and a dead end.

 

So where does neo-Advaita draw its inferences from? Haha strangely enough I was participating in a discussion with Shastriya advaitins on FB. They are traditional scholars and practitioners of advaita. Some were Kashmir shaivaites. They all said pretty much the same thing I said. If you went to them and told them they were neo-advaitins, they'd literally roll on the floor laughing!

Edited April 6, 2016 by dwai