Is Nirvikalpa Samadhi actually a dead end?

[Jeff]

If you're talking about confronting false identifications until it hurts, then I would agree. If you mean pushing energy until it hurts or burns somehow then I wouldn't agree, as I find that energy either naturally flows into the cleared spaces, or occasionally needs to be directed in a gentle way.

 

... 

 

I don't quite think that you are getting my analogies. Yes, definitely about noticing, accepting and letting go of false identifications. But, one cannot realize Nirvikalpa samadhi by "forcing things". Such forcing or the movement of energy requires a "you" to do it. What I am describing is more about pure "residing". That is more the original meaning of the word meditation.

 

Reside and just be... Let it all go...

[Bindi]

I don't quite think that you are getting my analogies. Yes, definitely about noticing, accepting and letting go of false identifications. But, one cannot realize Nirvikalpa samadhi by "forcing things". Such forcing or the movement of energy requires a "you" to do it. What I am describing is more about pure "residing". That is more the original meaning of the word meditation. Reside and just be... Let it all go...

 

No fair enough, I might not be getting your analogies, what then did you actually mean by  "If you want to get stronger and in shape, you push until the muscles burn..."?  

[Jeff]

No fair enough, I might not be getting your analogies, what then did you actually mean by  "If you want to get stronger and in shape, you push until the muscles burn..."?  

 

It was an extension to my orginal analogy about Nirvikalpa samadhi not being really the same for everyone. My example of diving in a totally dark ocean, you can't see, so people go to different depths, but may think it is all the same. The workout analogy was in response to your "why" in followup.

 

It is not possible to "force it" and realize Nirvikalpa samadhi. Anyone who describes it that way has definitely not realized it. Nirvikalpa samadhi Is more like the natural result of "deep residing" (or the old descriptions of meditation).

 

In the diving deep analogy, maybe a better version would be like this...

 

You are diving in a totally dark ocean... You are so still that you can even let go of all of the air in your lungs (personal fears - sense of self) ... Residing, you sink in the ocean until you sort of pass out (no longer have the energy flow to maintain that depth in consciousness)...

 

That is Nirvikalpa samadhi. One has stepped beyond their (current) conscious level of ego/sense of self. There is still subconscious stuff there, and that is why you "come back", but you have a moment... And for some, that moment is like a seed that can sprout. Growing into the most beautiful of plants.

[Bindi]

It was an extension to my orginal analogy about Nirvikalpa samadhi not being really the same for everyone. My example of diving in a totally dark ocean, you can't see, so people go to different depths, but may think it is all the same. The workout analogy was in response to your "why" in followup. It is not possible to "force it" and realize Nirvikalpa samadhi. Anyone who describes it that way has definitely not realized it. Nirvikalpa samadhi Is more like the natural result of "deep residing" (or the old descriptions of meditation). In the diving deep analogy, maybe a better version would be like this... You are diving in a totally dark ocean... You are so still that you can even let go of all of the air in your lungs (personal fears - sense of self) ... Residing, you sink in the ocean until you sort of pass out (no longer have the energy flow to maintain that depth in consciousness)... That is Nirvikalpa samadhi. One has stepped beyond their (current) conscious level of ego/sense of self. There is still subconscious stuff there, and that is why you "come back", but you have a moment... And for some, that moment is like a seed that can sprout. Growing into the most beautiful of plants.

 

Jeff, saying "The workout analogy was in response to your "why" in followup" doesn't make what you meant by your workout analogy any clearer whatsoever. I'd still like you to clarify your workout analogy specifically, as I still don't know what you meant, and I would like to.  

 

edit: rereading your post I see you also mention it was an extension to your original analogy, but this doesn't explain it to me either. 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Bindi

[Jeff]

Jeff, saying "The workout analogy was in response to your "why" in followup" doesn't make what you meant by your workout analogy any clearer whatsoever. I'd still like you to clarify your workout analogy specifically, as I still don't know what you meant, and I would like to.  

 

Maybe we just need sort of a baseline or starting point.  Does what I said just above about Nirvikalpa samadhi make sense to you? Get what I am saying there?

[Bindi]

 

So where does neo-Advaita draw its inferences from? Haha strangely enough I was participating in a discussion with Shastriya advaitins on FB. They are traditional scholars and practitioners of advaita. Some were Kashmir shaivaites. They all said pretty much the same thing I said. If you went to them and told them they were neo-advaitins, they'd literally roll on the floor laughing!

 

It was the "no more negativity or fear or anger or envy etc" as a consequence of being in the state of nirvikalpa samadhi that made me think of neo-advaita. Wouldn't advaita require that these issues be addressed in order to realise sahaja samadhi? 

[gatito]

True enough. From the same article:

 

C: Bhagavan, you said yesterday that there exists in the human body a hole as small as a pinpoint, from which consciousness always bubbles out to the body. Is it open or shut? 

B: It is always shut, being the knot of ignorance which ties the body to consciousness. When the mind drops away in the temporaryKevala Nirvikalpa it opens but shuts again. In Sahaja it remains always open. 

C: How is it during the experience of 'I-I' consciousness? 

B: This consciousness is the key which opens it permanently. 

 

Interesting then that one of his favourite scriptures, the ashtavakra gita, directly contradicts this purported conversation...

 

I would reckon that Ramana being so adamant that there is something to continue searching for immediately disqualifies him as a neo-advaitan himself. 

 

Perhaps...

[Bindi]

Maybe we just need sort of a baseline or starting point.  Does what I said just above about Nirvikalpa samadhi make sense to you? Get what I am saying there?

 

I understand your ocean analogy.  I don't personally like the idea of sort of passing out from lack of energy flow from going deeper than your level of consciousness allows, and I wonder why you wouldn't just work on raising consciousness first and then diving. But this aside, yes, you can build up from your ocean analogy. 

[dwai]

It was the "no more negativity or fear or anger or envy etc" as a consequence of being in the state of nirvikalpa samadhi that made me think of neo-advaita. Wouldn't advaita require that these issues be addressed in order to realise sahaja samadhi? 

Until one goes into Nirvikalpa samadhi, the samskaras are not eliminated. Sahaja Samadhi comes after Nirvikalpa stage, when one is able to remain "nondual" while operating in the dualistic world.

[ChiForce]

Here is my attempt...describing from my own experience.  Is like your conscious mind being suspended outside of your body and being held by nothing, like in space.  Inside a room but not really a room because this "room" or this area of perception has no boundaries.  Everywhere is luminous white light but uniform in appearance.  Is like the light is coming from ALL directions.  You don't feel gravity here.  There are no ups, downs, right, and left.  You don't sense your body at all because your body does not exist here and you no longer exist with a body.  You just realize and aware this white, luminous atmosphere, but is big and vast and almost it is alive.  You forgot where you came from and how you got here.  You felt at home.  

 

Of course, you couldn't hold this attention for long and your karma is calling you back.  Then, your sense of emotion affiliation only begins to emerge.        

[Bindi]

Until one goes into Nirvikalpa samadhi, the samskaras are not eliminated. Sahaja Samadhi comes after Nirvikalpa stage, when one is able to remain "nondual" while operating in the dualistic world.

 

I will quote Ramana as my respected authority in this:

 

“In kevala nirvikalpa samadhi one is not free from vasanas and does not, therefore, attain mukti."

 

“Even though one practices kevala nirvikalpa samadhi for years together, if one has not rooted out the vasanas, he will not attain salvation.”

[Bindi]

 

Interesting then that one of his favourite scriptures, the ashtavakra gita, directly contradicts this purported conversation...

 

 

Perhaps...

 

Ramana also contradicts himself at times, nonetheless I find his overarching perception and advice to be sound. 

[Jeff]

I understand your ocean analogy.  I don't personally like the idea of sort of passing out from lack of energy flow from going deeper than your level of consciousness allows, and I wonder why you wouldn't just work on raising consciousness first and then diving. But this aside, yes, you can build up from your ocean analogy. 

 

Because it doesn't really work that way.  The issues and fears are subconscious, and if you could consciously access and deal with them, they would all immediately be gone...

[roger]

I don't think this samadhi or the desciption of it is nonsense, I am more questioning it's value in furthering spiritual  growth. From your perspective, was there a gain beyond the feelings at the time of experiencing it? 

 

A Course in Miracles talks about the gain that comes from samadhi, and based on my experience I agree with it.

 

Basically, it does something to your attitude, to your beliefs and perspective. You see things differently because of it.

 

There have been many times when people had "attacked" me, and I responded extremely lovingly to them. I just didn't really care that they were rude, it didn't matter to me.

 

Some call it "divine apathy" or "sublime indifference." It's like things don't matter as much.

 

Oh funny I just thought of something. Just today I was thinking about something I heard on the radio once about the drug crystal meth.

 

There was a young man saying something like, "......I started stealing, and before I started stealing, I ran away from home, and before I ran away from home, I stopped caring, and before I stopped caring, I never felt so good in my life, and before I never felt so good, I tried crystal meth."

 

I just didn't care so much, but in a good way, in a liberating way.

[dwai]

I will quote Ramana as my respected authority in this:

 

“In kevala nirvikalpa samadhi one is not free from vasanas and does not, therefore, attain mukti."

 

“Even though one practices kevala nirvikalpa samadhi for years together, if one has not rooted out the vasanas, he will not attain salvation.”

Of course. Just nirvikalpa samadhi is not enough. But Nirvikalpa Samadhi makes the reason why we need to drop the vasanas and samskaras very apparent. There is a strong inclination to lean towards simple and wholesome living, because the Sattva guns increases tremendously. 

[dwai]

A Course in Miracles talks about the gain that comes from samadhi, and based on my experience I agree with it.

 

Basically, it does something to your attitude, to your beliefs and perspective. You see things differently because of it.

 

There have been many times when people had "attacked" me, and I responded extremely lovingly to them. I just didn't really care that they were rude, it didn't matter to me.

 

Some call it "divine apathy" or "sublime indifference." It's like things don't matter as much.

 

Oh funny I just thought of something. Just today I was thinking about something I heard on the radio once about the drug crystal meth.

 

There was a young man saying something like, "......I started stealing, and before I started stealing, I ran away from home, and before I ran away from home, I stopped caring, and before I stopped caring, I never felt so good in my life, and before I never felt so good, I tried crystal meth."

 

I just didn't care so much, but in a good way, in a liberating way.

It's not apathy. It is rooted in the knowledge that all this is ephemeral. 

[gatito]

Ramana also contradicts himself at times, nonetheless I find his overarching perception and advice to be sound. 

 

I prefer various ancient scriptures that have withstood the tests of time and which have illuminated my own direct experience over the words of any of the modern gurus.

 

However, I'm glad that Ramana has provided you with similar illumination.

[Bud Jetsun]

While one wants to experience Nirvana they are replacing Nirvana with this choice to experience wanting.

 

 

While one wants to understand Nirvana they are replacing Nirvana with the choice to want to understand Nirvana.

 

 

While one researches others inherently imperfect writings of Nirvana they are replacing Nirvana with the choice to research.

 

 

All that you read or ponder about taking a drink will not quench your thirst.

 

 

If a being mindfully chooses stillness, they may discover the unfathomable beauty that has always been there waiting to be appreciated.

 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Edited April 6, 2016 by Bud Jetsun

[Bindi]

Because it doesn't really work that way.  The issues and fears are subconscious, and if you could consciously access and deal with them, they would all immediately be gone...

 

I’d say you can consciously access and deal with issues and fears that are subconscious, there are a number of avenues that can be taken to do this, though every method would take time, many years, even your method of ‘diving deep’ must take time. Do you think your method is just faster, or the only way of accessing subconscious material? 

 

Regarding your diving deep method, are you saying that in the midst of enjoying the sublime peace and bliss of nirvikalpa samadhi you somehow uncover subconscious issues and fears there?

 

Or do you uncover subconscious issues and fears in a different ocean?

[Bindi]

I prefer various ancient scriptures that have withstood the tests of time and which have illuminated my own direct experience over the words of any of the modern gurus.

 

However, I'm glad that Ramana has provided you with similar illumination.

 

Do you find Ramana's conclusions to be generally consistent with the ancient scriptures?

 

I am a haphazard reader and it is my failing that I am not aware of the ancient scriptures as much as I might be. Ramana simply has qualities that I appreciate, in particular brevity, and accessibility. Also I find that I generally agree with his perceptions. 

[Bindi]

A Course in Miracles talks about the gain that comes from samadhi, and based on my experience I agree with it.

 

Basically, it does something to your attitude, to your beliefs and perspective. You see things differently because of it.

 

There have been many times when people had "attacked" me, and I responded extremely lovingly to them. I just didn't really care that they were rude, it didn't matter to me.

 

Some call it "divine apathy" or "sublime indifference." It's like things don't matter as much.

 

Oh funny I just thought of something. Just today I was thinking about something I heard on the radio once about the drug crystal meth.

 

There was a young man saying something like, "......I started stealing, and before I started stealing, I ran away from home, and before I ran away from home, I stopped caring, and before I stopped caring, I never felt so good in my life, and before I never felt so good, I tried crystal meth."

 

I just didn't care so much, but in a good way, in a liberating way.

 

That's interesting roger, and quite clearly explained. Does it help with defusing aggressive interactions? 

 

Did it have any effect on your spiritual practices or desire to practice? 

[Bindi]

Of course. Just nirvikalpa samadhi is not enough. But Nirvikalpa Samadhi makes the reason why we need to drop the vasanas and samskaras very apparent. There is a strong inclination to lean towards simple and wholesome living, because the Sattva guns increases tremendously. 

 

 In your first post you appear to be saying that the vasanas and smaskaras are dropped immediately after realising in Nirvikalpa Samadhi that:

 

• There is only that one...no other (no separation between people, things, religions, languages, skin color, animals)
• There is really no thing. You are I and I am essentially empty of phenomenal existence. The world as we know it is just a vivid dream.

and immediately replaced by love, tranquility and bliss. So am I correct in saying that to you there is no work to be done apart from allowing all vasanas and samskaras to drop immediately?  Which would also imply that ego is extinguished at the same time, because the vasanas and samskaras are attached to the ego self. 

 

[Bindi]

While one wants to experience Nirvana they are replacing Nirvana with this choice to experience wanting.

 

 

While one wants to understand Nirvana they are replacing Nirvana with the choice to want to understand Nirvana.

 

 

While one researches others inherently imperfect writings of Nirvana they are replacing Nirvana with the choice to research.

 

 

All that you read or ponder about taking a drink will not quench your thirst.

 

 

If a being mindfully chooses stillness, they may discover the unfathomable beauty that has always been there waiting to be appreciated.

 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

Bud, you continue to add your inherently imperfect writings of Nirvana to the inherently imperfect pile that already exist. Do we really need any more? 

[gatito]

Do you find Ramana's conclusions to be generally consistent with the ancient scriptures?

 

I find that Ramana's conclusions are sometimes consistent and sometimes inconsistent with ancient scriptures. I gave one example of gross inconsistency above.

[Jeff]

I’d say you can consciously access and deal with issues and fears that are subconscious, there are a number of avenues that can be taken to do this, though every method would take time, many years, even your method of ‘diving deep’ must take time. Do you think your method is just faster, or the only way of accessing subconscious material? 

 

Regarding your diving deep method, are you saying that in the midst of enjoying the sublime peace and bliss of nirvikalpa samadhi you somehow uncover subconscious issues and fears there?

 

Or do you uncover subconscious issues and fears in a different ocean?

 

Again, I think you are misunderstanding what I have stated earlier. Nirvikalpa samadhi is not an "approach" to compare to some Taoist energy movement technique. It is more the natural result of residing/meditation. It will naturally happen to any advanced spiritual practioner (of any tradtion) when they have begun to "reside". It is part of the natural process of quieting "mind".