Is Nirvikalpa Samadhi actually a dead end?

[Bindi]

Again, I think you are misunderstanding what I have stated earlier. Nirvikalpa samadhi is not an "approach" to compare to some Taoist energy movement technique. It is more the natural result of residing/meditation. It will naturally happen to any advanced spiritual practioner (of any tradtion) when they have begun to "reside". It is part of the natural process of quieting "mind".

 

If you accept that Ramana generally tried to discourage devotees from trying to reach the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi, then to some extent it must be an approach.

 

But back to your definition - you describe Nirvikalpa Samadhi as residing with a quiet mind. You have stated that fears and issues restrict you from diving deeper. So how do you get past this restriction? 

[Michael Sternbach]

Any exalted state is okay as a temporary experience on the way. Is any of them ultimate and final? I don't believe so. The way is without end...

[Jeff]

If you accept that Ramana generally tried to discourage devotees from trying to reach the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi, then to some extent it must be an approach.

 

But back to your definition - you describe Nirvikalpa Samadhi as residing with a quiet mind. You have stated that fears and issues restrict you from diving deeper. So how do you get past this restriction? 

 

I am not that familiar with his approach/teachings... But my guess is that he is saying to not "strive for the state", because in the desire for it, there is remaining sense of self, and it is not possible to reach it.

 

I am not saying that Nirvikalpa Samadhi is residing with a quiet mind. It is more like a result of residing.  More like after a while the air being let out of a ballon (local self).

 

You naturally go deeper as you drop issues, fears and obstructions.  The "how" is basically the point of various practices and traditions.  

[Bindi]

I am not that familiar with his approach/teachings... But my guess is that he is saying to not "strive for the state", because in the desire for it,

there is remaining sense of self, and it is not possible to reach it.

 

No, he wasn't meaning 'don't strive', "He generally tried to discourage devotees from trying to reach this state since he regarded it as something akin to an unproductive detour.(28) One can infer from his remarks and writings that self-enquiry, properly undertaken, bypasses this kevala nirvikalpa state completely and reaches the sahaja state via the alternate route of the aham sphurana experience."

 

I am not saying that Nirvikalpa Samadhi is residing with a quiet mind. It is more like a result of residing.  More like after a while the air being let out of a ballon (local self).

 

You naturally go deeper as you drop issues, fears and obstructions.  The "how" is basically the point of various practices and traditions.  

 

Okay, to your understanding Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the result of residing with a quiet mind. So having clarified that have we reached the point where you can now clarify what you meant by "think about it like working out with exercising... If you want to get stronger and in shape, you push until the muscles burn...  :)"

[Jeff]

No, he wasn't meaning 'don't strive', "He generally tried to discourage devotees from trying to reach this state since he regarded it as something akin to an unproductive detour.(28) One can infer from his remarks and writings that self-enquiry, properly undertaken, bypasses this kevala nirvikalpa state completely and reaches the sahaja state via the alternate route of the aham sphurana experience."

 

 

Okay, to your understanding Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the result of residing with a quiet mind. So having clarified that have we reached the point where you can now clarify what you meant by "think about it like working out with exercising... If you want to get stronger and in shape, you push until the muscles burn...  :)"

 

This discussion does not seem to be going anywhere.  I have repeatedly given analogies and attempted to describe what I mean, it is about "residing".  It seems that the concept of residing is not resonating with you.  May I ask, what kind of mediation do you do?  How long per day?  

 

Let's start with your current meditation practices and try to build up from there?

[Bindi]

This discussion does not seem to be going anywhere.  I have repeatedly given analogies and attempted to describe what I mean, it is about "residing".  It seems that the concept of residing is not resonating with you.  May I ask, what kind of mediation do you do?  How long per day?  

 

Let's start with your current meditation practices and try to build up from there?

 

Jeff, in what way is this discussion not going anywhere if we have established that you mean "Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the result of residing with a quiet mind"? Is this statement wrong somehow? You stated earlier that I needed to understand what you meant by Nirvikalpa Samadhi before you explained what you meant by pushing until your muscles burn. I really don't want to get onto an entirely different track before finishing this one. 

 

I suggest we just continue with where we've gotten to. What did you mean by your analogy of "think about it like working out with exercising... If you want to get stronger and in shape, you push until the muscles burn...  :)" 

[Jeff]

Jeff, in what way is this discussion not going anywhere if we have established that you mean "Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the result of residing with a quiet mind"? Is this statement wrong somehow? You stated earlier that I needed to understand what you meant by Nirvikalpa Samadhi before you explained what you meant by pushing until your muscles burn. I really don't want to get onto an entirely different track before finishing this one. 

 

I suggest we just continue with where we've gotten to. What did you mean by your analogy of "think about it like working out with exercising... If you want to get stronger and in shape, you push until the muscles burn...  :)" 

 

Bindi - if you look back, many posts ago I already described that as an extension of the sea analogy and then went on to explain it.

 

As I have repeatedly stated, Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the natural result of residing meditation at higher (or in a sea analogy - deeper) levels.  

 

How about this one then... Like a burn and your muscles getting stronger being the natural result of going for a long run (meditation) while you enjoy the beauty of scenery as you go...

 

Some traditions focus on the burn and muscle growth... Other traditions prefer to talk about the scenery that they see while running.  One is about silence, they other is about the translation of energy.  Ultimately, both energy and silence are the same thing, but it is not perceived that way until one has realized it.

[dwai]

 

 In your first post you appear to be saying that the vasanas and smaskaras are dropped immediately after realising in Nirvikalpa Samadhi that:

 

• There is only that one...no other (no separation between people, things, religions, languages, skin color, animals)
• There is really no thing. You are I and I am essentially empty of phenomenal existence. The world as we know it is just a vivid dream.

and immediately replaced by love, tranquility and bliss. So am I correct in saying that to you there is no work to be done apart from allowing all vasanas and samskaras to drop immediately?  Which would also imply that ego is extinguished at the same time, because the vasanas and samskaras are attached to the ego self. 

 

No that was your inference

What it means is that we experience that which we may have had glimpses of in the course of our practice before and intuitively grasped. This puts to rest any doubts about "that one". 

 

Much akin to how our dreams seem real while we sleep but unreal when we awaken, similarly our mundane reality will seem like a dream when we awaken to that one reality, but might forget when we go back to sleep (re-enter the dualistic state).

 

Just as one can lucid dream to be free in a regular dream, then the work starts to be lucid in the dualistic reality dream.

[Bindi]

No that was your inference

What it means is that we experience that which we may have had glimpses of in the course of our practice before and intuitively grasped. This puts to rest any doubts about "that one". 

 

Much akin to how our dreams seem real while we sleep but unreal when we awaken, similarly our mundane reality will seem like a dream when we awaken to that one reality, but might forget when we go back to sleep (re-enter the dualistic state).

 

Just as one can lucid dream to be free in a regular dream, then the work starts to be lucid in the dualistic reality dream.

 

So what you glimpsed during Nirvikalpa samadhi was enough to cause you to realise

 

• There is only that one...no other (no separation between people, things, religions, languages, skin color, animals)
• There is really no thing. You are I and I am essentially empty of phenomenal existence. The world as we know it is just a vivid dream.

 

You said "Once these two realizations occur (experientially), there is no more negativity or fear or anger or envy etc. There is only love, tranquility and bliss." 

 

Do I assume too much in seeing this as allowing all vasanas and samskaras to drop immediately?

[Bindi]

Bindi - if you look back, many posts ago I already described that as an extension of the sea analogy and then went on to explain it.

 

As I have repeatedly stated, Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the natural result of residing meditation at higher (or in a sea analogy - deeper) levels.

 

How about this one then... Like a burn and your muscles getting stronger being the natural result of going for a long run (meditation) while you enjoy the beauty of scenery as you go...

 

Some traditions focus on the burn and muscle growth... Other traditions prefer to talk about the scenery that they see while running.  One is about silence, they other is about the translation of energy.  Ultimately, both energy and silence are the same thing, but it is not perceived that way until one has realized it.

 

So beyond feeling the bliss and unity and silence, you think energy is being developed in this state. And continued residing in Nirvikalpa samadhi will continue to develop energy?

 

What sort of energy is it? 

[3bob]

Shakti is real, illusion is in incomplete perception

[roger]

That's interesting roger, and quite clearly explained. Does it help with defusing aggressive interactions? 

 

Did it have any effect on your spiritual practices or desire to practice? 

 

It removed the desire, to a great extent, to interact aggressively. I've really lost the imagined need to "attack", so to speak.

 

I would say the effect it has had on my spiritual practices is that it healed me of a fear of going very deep.

 

I feel that there's a point that people's fear won't allow them to go past when meditating. It's like there's a block, a limit to how deep one will allow themselves to go.

 

The thing is that, and it sounds crazy, a person could probably naturally experience samahdi if they TRULY desired to, but fear, and its accompanying unwillingness, stands in the way. So there's a self-created block or wall that stands between one's conscious awareness and one's divine reality.

 

My experiences have healed me of that fear and block.

[Jeff]

So beyond feeling the bliss and unity and silence, you think energy is being developed in this state. And continued residing in Nirvikalpa samadhi will continue to develop energy?

 

What sort of energy is it? 

 

Not sure how you could have gotten that from my above statement (or any of my past statements). I am not saying that energy is being "developed" in Nirvikalpa samadhi. As I have stated earlier, Nirvikalpa samadhi is much more like what happens when you let air out of a ballon.

[Bindi]

Not sure how you could have gotten that from my above statement (or any of my past statements). I am not saying that energy is being "developed" in Nirvikalpa samadhi. As I have stated earlier, Nirvikalpa samadhi is much more like what happens when you let air out of a ballon.

 

So how does energy and burn relate to Nirvikalpa samadhi? Before they are realised to be the same thing that is. Reside in energy? Reside in the result of energy? But I still don't understand the analogy of developing muscles and the burn this creates. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Bindi

[Jeff]

So how does energy and burn relate to Nirvikalpa samadhi? Before they are realised to be the same thing that is. Reside in energy? Reside in the result of energy? But I still don't understand the analogy of developing muscles and the burn this creates. 

 

The concept of energy and the analogy of exercising or running long distances related to Nirvikalpa samadhI are two different things. If one has meditated for long periods of time, I had thought that the analogy of distance running/exercising would be useful. The "letting air out of a ballon" also works relative to one's practices.

 

When air is no longer trapped in a ballon, what happens to the ballon and also the air that was trapped inside of the ballon?

 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Jeff

[dwai]

 

So what you glimpsed during Nirvikalpa samadhi was enough to cause you to realise

 

• There is only that one...no other (no separation between people, things, religions, languages, skin color, animals)
• There is really no thing. You are I and I am essentially empty of phenomenal existence. The world as we know it is just a vivid dream.

 

You said "Once these two realizations occur (experientially), there is no more negativity or fear or anger or envy etc. There is only love, tranquility and bliss." 

 

Do I assume too much in seeing this as allowing all vasanas and samskaras to drop immediately?

 

I'm sorry that I wasn't clear in my articulation.

 

My experience is that it stays that way for a certain period of time. For me the longest was for about 15 days after my teacher initiated me. When this was the case, there were no vasanas and this period helped me dissolve many samskaras.

 

However, there is a constant onslaught on our senses and mind in the "normal" world. So we have to keep practicing, keep dissolving and cultivating so we can stabilize in sahaj samadhi eventually.

[Jonesboy]

Question : May I have a clear idea of the difference between savikalpa and nirvikalpa?

 

Ramana Maharshi : Holding on to the supreme state is samadhi. When it is with effort due to mental disturbances, it is savikalpa. When these disturbances are absent, it is nirvikalpa. Remaining permanently in the primal state without effort is sahaja.

 

Question : Is nirvikalpa samadhi absolutely necessary before the attainment of sahaja?

 

Ramana Maharshi : Abiding permanently in any of these samadhis, either savikalpa or nirvikatpa, is sahaja [the natural state]. What is body-consciousness? It is the insentient body plus consciousness. Both of these must lie in another consciousness which is absolute and unaffected and which remains as it always is, with or without the body-consciousness. What does it then matter whether the body-consciousness is lost or retained, provided one is holding on to that pure consciousness? Total absence of body-consciousness has the advantage of making the samadhi more intense, although it makes no difference to the knowledge of the supreme.

 

Source: Be As You Are, David Godman

 

 

Sri Chinmoy on Samadhi

 

Sahaja samadhi encompasses the other samadhis— savikalpa and nirvikalpa—and it goes beyond, beyond. Samadhi is like a big building with many floors. When one is in sahaja samadhi, he is the owner of the whole building. He has the height of nirvikalpa, and the heights far above that, and at the same time he has achieved the perfection, wealth and capacity of all the other floors. On the one hand he has encompassed within himself all the Doors, and on the other hand he is above them. Nirvikalpa is like one height, say the thirtieth floor; it is very high, but it has only its own limited capacity. It cannot bring any of its capacity to the basement. If one has nirvikalpa, he is afraid to go down into the basement, because he may not be able to go back up again. But sahaja consciousness is above the thirtieth floor and, at the same time, it can be in the basement also. Sahaja samadhi will not be satisfied with thirtieth floor; it will be satisfied only when it touches the basement, the first floor, the second floor, all the floors. The power of sahaja samadhi is such that it can take one to any floor.

 

Source: The Summits of God-Life: Samadhi and Siddhi, Sri Chinmoy. http://wanderling.tripod.com/sahaja.html

Edited April 9, 2016 by Jonesboy

[Bindi]

My basic understanding is that nirvikalpa samadhi may feel like/perhaps even is temporarily an ultimate state, but the problem seems to be that it is not retained after meditation.

There seems to be unanimity on the issue that to make this state permanent one has to be free of vasanas and samskaras.

Ramana states that the work that needs to be done to be free of vasanas cannot be done in the state of nirvikalpa samadhi. Shankaracharya similarly states that “The attainment of Samadhi is not a sufficient cause to eradicate false knowledge, and since false knowledge is the cause of bondage, Samadhi cannot therefore be the cause of liberation.”

Sri Chinmoy doesn’t address this particular issue, though he clearly distinguishes between nirvikalpa and sahaja samadi. Swami Chidananda who is also referenced in Tom's link above believes that continued residing in Nirvikalpa samadhi will lead to sahaja samadi, though he notes that this attainment is rare.

 

In this sense all viewpoints and opinions are catered to. 

(I accept that Sahaja Samadhi as referred to above is being regarded as ultimate self -realisation or self-actualisation.)

But another aspect of this issue that interests me is the value of the 'trance-like' meditation that leads to Nirvikalpa samadhi in the first place.

 

Although the importance of concentration is evident from the early Upanisads (BU 4.4.23), a form of yoga practice leading to the absorptive state of Samadhi is only in evidence in the later texts. We have seen that Sankara does speak of a type of concentration upon the Self which is akin to yoga insofar as there is the withdrawal of the mind from sense objects, but he does not advocate more than that and he does not put forward the view that we find in classical Yoga about the necessity of total thought suppression. We have seen that he has used the word Samadhi very sparingly, and when he has used it, it was not always in an unambiguously favorable context. It should be clear that Sankara does not set up nirvikalpa-samadhi as a spiritual goal. For if he had thought it to be an indispensable requirement for liberation, then he would have said so. But he has not said so. Contemplation on the Self is obviously a part of Sankara's teaching, but his contemplation is directed toward seeing the ever present Self as free from all conditionings rather than toward the attainment of nirvikalpa-samadhi.

http://sped2work.tripod.com/samadhi.html

[Bindi]

 

The concept of energy and the analogy of exercising or running long distances related to Nirvikalpa samadhI are two different things. If one has meditated for long periods of time, I had thought that the analogy of distance running/exercising would be useful.

 

 

Okay, so the muscles of meditation are built up, which allows one to reside in deep meditation which results in nirvikalpa samadhi. And it burns because of the hard work put into meditating? 

 

The "letting air out of a ballon" also works relative to one's practices.

 

When air is no longer trapped in a ballon, what happens to the ballon and also the air that was trapped inside of the ballon?

 

 

Ah, le ballon. Clearly it's just a wrinkly old overstretched bit of wet rubbery stuff that's left. Is this an analogy for the body whilst in the state of nirvikalpa samadhi? 

[Bindi]

It removed the desire, to a great extent, to interact aggressively. I've really lost the imagined need to "attack", so to speak.

 

I would say the effect it has had on my spiritual practices is that it healed me of a fear of going very deep.

 

I feel that there's a point that people's fear won't allow them to go past when meditating. It's like there's a block, a limit to how deep one will allow themselves to go.

 

The thing is that, and it sounds crazy, a person could probably naturally experience samahdi if they TRULY desired to, but fear, and its accompanying unwillingness, stands in the way. So there's a self-created block or wall that stands between one's conscious awareness and one's divine reality.

 

My experiences have healed me of that fear and block.

 

Thanks for sharing this roger. I guess in terms of the title of this thread your experience is that nirvikalpa samadhi is not a dead end. I still have a few questions though if you don't mind. 

 

Do you find that you are now able to attain this state more easily in meditation? 

 

Do you try to extend this samadhi beyond meditation?

 

Do you have a sense that 'sahaja' samadhi is attainable through continued time spent in nirvikalpa samadhi, or do you do other practices to free yourself from the vasanas?

[Jeff]

 

Okay, so the muscles of meditation are built up, which allows one to reside in deep meditation which results in nirvikalpa samadhi. And it burns because of the hard work put into meditating? 

 

Ah, le ballon. Clearly it's just a wrinkly old overstretched bit of wet rubbery stuff that's left. Is this an analogy for the body whilst in the state of nirvikalpa samadhi? 

 

Bindi,

 

I take it that you are not someone who like to run (or maybe ride a bike). They do not do it because it is hard work, runners love to run. Distance bike riders love to ride. Burn and muscles getting stronger is just a natural part of the process.

 

Also, the ballon is not the body, the ballon is the bubble of sense of self. The air is the energy that is freed up as the fears and issues are released/broken down.

 

It seems that none of my analogies are helpful for you, so I will let it go and stop.

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

 

 

 

[Bindi]

Bindi, I take it that you are not someone who like to run (or maybe ride a bike). They do not do it because it is hard work, runners love to run. Distance bike riders love to ride. Burn and muscles getting stronger is just a natural part of the process. Also, the ballon is not the body, the ballon is the bubble of sense of self. The air is the energy that is freed up as the fears and issues are released/broken down. It seems that none of my analogies are helpful for you, so I will let it go and stop. Best wishes, Jeff

 

Yes, I see I got le ballon wrong. I did however come across this very simple analogy from Ramakrishna about his experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. Do you like this one? 

 

"A salt doll went to measure the depth of the ocean, but before it had gone far into the water it melted away. It became entirely one with the water of the ocean. Then who was to come back and tell the ocean's depth?"  

[Bindi]

Ramakrishna’s experience of Nirvikalpa samadhi, quite an interesting read:
 

985. I was for six months in that state of Nirvikalpa from which ordinary mortals cannot return. For after twenty-one days the body drops off like a withered leaf. Days and nights succeeded one another perfectly unnoticed. Flies would enter the mouth and nostrils just as in the case of a corpse- without producing any sensation. Hairs became all matted with dust. Sometimes even Nature's calls were answered unawares. Hardly would the body have survived this state but for a Sadhu who happened to come at this time. He at once recognised my condition, and also understood that the Mother had yet to do many things through this body-that many persons would be benefited if it were preserved. So at meal time he used to fetch some food and try to bring me to external consciousness by administering a good beating to the body. As soon as traces of consciousness were perceived, he would thrust the food into the mouth. In this way a few morsels would be swallowed on some days; on other days, not even that. Full six months were thus passed. Later, after some days' stay in this state, I came to hear the Mother's command, "Remain on the threshold of relative consciousness (Bhavamukha) for the instruction of mankind." Then appeared blood dysentery. There was acute writhing pain in the intestines. Through this suffering for six months the normal body consciousness slowly reappeared. Or else, every now and then the mind would, of its own accord, soar to the Nirvikalpa state.

 

986. The natural tendency of this (my) mind is upwards (towards the Nirvikalpa state). Once that state is reached, it does not like to come down. For your sake I drag it down perforce. The downward pull is not strong enough without a lower desire. So I create some trifling desires, as for instance, for smoking, for drinking water, for tasting a particular dish, or for seeing a particular person, and repeatedly suggest them to my mind. Then alone the mind slowly comes down (to the body). Again, while coming down, it may run back upward. Again it has to be dragged down through such desires.

http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/SayingsOfRamakrishnaParamahamsa.pdf

[Jeff]

Yes, I see I got le ballon wrong. I did however come across this very simple analogy from Ramakrishna about his experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. Do you like this one? 

 

"A salt doll went to measure the depth of the ocean, but before it had gone far into the water it melted away. It became entirely one with the water of the ocean. Then who was to come back and tell the ocean's depth?"  

 

To me, the analogy is ok, but sort of a limited view perspective. It is similar to, but loses the broader aspect that comes with the "full building" analogy that was mentioned earlier.

[Bud Jetsun]

Nirvana is a dead end like inner peace or Enlightenment is a dead end if a being chooses to define existing in terms of self-imposed suffering.

 

 

Nirvana doesn't leave when a being chooses to stop appreciation of it to instead overlay some constructed web of thoughts. The attention of the being has simply shifted away from it to whatever else.

 

 

Somethings are instantly there own best reward in doing, somethings are instantly there own cruelest punishment in doing. It remains the choice of the being to show themselves compassion or torture.

 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Edited April 9, 2016 by Bud Jetsun