Is Nirvikalpa Samadhi actually a dead end?

[Bindi]

To me, the analogy is ok, but sort of a limited view perspective. It is similar to, but loses the broader aspect that comes with the "full building" analogy that was mentioned earlier.

 

Gee, we really don't see eye to eye, I would have chosen that one as one of the worst. It doesn’t seem to capture the spirit of samadhi well at all, for a start he creates a distinction between nirvikalpa samadhi and sahaja samadhi which by all accounts doesn’t actually exist, as the two states are considered to be equivalent apart from the impermanency of nirvikalpa samadhi. And secondly he creates a building in which to posit these two distinct levels. Isn’t samadhi about dissolving? 

Edited April 9, 2016 by Bindi

[Tibetan_Ice]

My basic understanding is that nirvikalpa samadhi may feel like/perhaps even is temporarily an ultimate state, but the problem seems to be that it is not retained after meditation.

 

There seems to be unanimity on the issue that to make this state permanent one has to be free of vasanas and samskaras.

 

Ramana states that the work that needs to be done to be free of vasanas cannot be done in the state of nirvikalpa samadhi. Shankaracharya similarly states that “The attainment of Samadhi is not a sufficient cause to eradicate false knowledge, and since false knowledge is the cause of bondage, Samadhi cannot therefore be the cause of liberation.”

 

Sri Chinmoy doesn’t address this particular issue, though he clearly distinguishes between nirvikalpa and sahaja samadi. Swami Chidananda who is also referenced in Tom's link above believes that continued residing in Nirvikalpa samadhi will lead to sahaja samadi, though he notes that this attainment is rare.

 

In this sense all viewpoints and opinions are catered to.

 

(I accept that Sahaja Samadhi as referred to above is being regarded as ultimate self -realisation or self-actualisation.)

 

But another aspect of this issue that interests me is the value of the 'trance-like' meditation that leads to Nirvikalpa samadhi in the first place.

Hi Bindi,

I must say, what an interesting thread. Your clear-headed-ness and mental perspicacity are a joy to watch in action! I enjoy this thread because it gives me the opportunity to review the knowledge that I've acquired over the years.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is not a dead end. It is a doorway that leads to a goal. From my understanding, one must go through that doorway repeatedly in order to clear the samskaras, vasanas, hinderences and fetters of maya and samsara.

 

Forgive me if I include a few Buddhist terms or ideas in this post as in that wanderling link you posted, it compared the formless jhanas to nirvikalpa samadhi, saying that they are pretty much the same thing. This has led me to study and compare the aspects which liberate. It seems that one or a few experiences of nirvikalpa samadhi does not remove the samskaras or vasanas nor does one or a few experiences of the jhanas remove the hinderences or fetters. However, in some texts it does say that those practices develop the "divine eye" or "third eye" and with the elevated ability one is then in a position to enter the higher states and then burn or eliminate the obstacles.

 

What did Yogananda write about nirvikalpa samadhi?

 

In "Autobiography of a Yogi" he calls it nirbikalpa...

 

He wrote:

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_9?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=yogananda+autobiography+of+a+yogi&sprefix=Yogananda%2Cstripbooks%2C211

 

Numerous bewildered seekers in the West erroneously think that an eloquent speaker or writer on metaphysics must be a master. The rishis, however, have pointed out that the acid test of a master is a man’s ability to enter at will the breathless state, and to maintain the unbroken samadhi of nirbikalpa . Only by these achievements can a human being prove that he has “mastered” maya or the dualistic Cosmic Delusion. He alone can say from the depths of realization: “Ekam sat ,”-“Only One exists.”

 

...

 

The world illusion, maya, is individually called avidya, literally, “not-knowledge,” ignorance, delusion. Maya or avidya can never be destroyed through intellectual conviction or analysis, but solely through attaining the interior state of nirbikalpa samadhi. The Old Testament prophets, and seers of all lands and ages, spoke from that state of consciousness. Ezekiel says (43:1-2): “Afterwards he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: and, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.” Through the divine eye in the forehead (east), the yogi sails his consciousness into omnipresence, hearing the Word or Aum, divine sound of many waters or vibrations which is the sole reality of creation.

 

...

 

 

“I sat that afternoon on my blanket, hallowed by associations of past-life realizations. My divine guru approached and passed his hand over my head. I entered the nirbikalpa samadhi state, remaining unbrokenly in its bliss for seven days. Crossing the successive strata of self-knowledge, I penetrated the deathless realms of reality. All delusive limitations dropped away; my soul was fully established on the eternal altar of the Cosmic Spirit. On the eighth day I fell at my guru’s feet and implored him to keep me always near him in this sacred wilderness.

 

...

 

“My child,” his voice rang out, vibrating into my very soul-firmament, “whenever you enter the door of nirbikalpa samadhi and call on me, I shall come to you in flesh and blood, even as today.” With this celestial promise Sri Yukteswar vanished from my sight. A cloud-voice repeated in musical thunder: “Tell all! Whosoever knows by nirbikalpa realization that your earth is a dream of God can come to the finer dream-created planet of Hiranyaloka, and there find me resurrected in a body exactly like my earthly one. Yogananda, tell all!”

 

 

However, in that book there is no mention of how to remove the samskaras or vasanas without having to deal with karma. One has to "work out one's karma" before they can progress to the higher realms..

 

“The physical karma or desires of man must be completely worked out before his permanent stay in astral worlds becomes possible,” my guru elucidated in his thrilling voice. “Two kinds of beings live in the astral spheres. Those who still have earthly karma to dispose of and who must therefore reinhabit a gross physical body in order to pay their karmic debts could be classified, after physical death, as temporary visitors to the astral world rather than as permanent residents.

 

“Beings with unredeemed earthly karma are not permitted after astral death to go to the high causal sphere of cosmic ideas, but must shuttle to and fro from the physical and astral worlds only, conscious successively of their physical body of sixteen gross elements, and of their astral body of nineteen subtle elements. After each loss of his physical body, however, an undeveloped being from the earth remains for the most part in the deep stupor of the death-sleep and is hardly conscious of the beautiful astral sphere. After the astral rest, such a man returns to the material plane for further lessons, gradually accustoming himself, through repeated journeys, to the worlds of subtle astral texture.

 

“Normal or long-established residents of the astral universe, on the other hand, are those who, freed forever from all material longings, need return no more to the gross vibrations of earth. Such beings have only astral and causal karma to work out. At astral death these beings pass to the infinitely finer and more delicate causal world. Shedding the thought-form of the causal body at the end of a certain span, determined by cosmic law, these advanced beings then return to Hiranyaloka or a similar high astral planet, reborn in a new astral body to work out their unredeemed astral karma.

 

 

So, in summation, the divine eye is the gate of nirbikalpa samadhi and gurus can help you through the gate, but you can't stay in the higher state unless you work out your karma. But, you can get a taste

 

 

 

The next major player is Gurudeva. Let's look at his "nirvikalpa samadhi" and how it is used to bring one to enlightenment..

 

In "Merging With Shiva" it says:

 

https://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/merging-with-siva

 

 

Moksha is not a state of extinction of the soul, nor of nonexistence, nor of nonconsciousness. It is perfect freedom, an indescribable state of nondifferentiation, a proximity to the Divine within. Moksha marks an end to the Earthly sojourn, but it may also be understood as a beginning, not unlike graduation from the university. Kaivalya is another apt term for this ineffable condition of perfect detachment, freedom and oneness.

 

To reach this emancipation beyond all joy and sorrow, all difference and decay, the soul must remove, in order, the three fetters: karma, which is “the power of cause and effect, action and reaction;” mâyâ, which is “the power of manifestation” sometimes called illusion; and ânava, “the power of egoity or veil of duality.” Once freed by God’s grace from these bonds— which do not cease to exist, but no longer have the power to bind—the soul experiences nirvikalpa samâdhi. This is the realization of the Self,

 

Atattva Parabrahman—timeless, formless, spaceless—a oneness beyond all change or diversity. Self Realization is man’s natural state, which each soul eventually comes to. While the ultimate goal of earthly life is the...

 

...

 

To attain liberation while living, the realization of the Self has to be brought through into every aspect of life, every atom of one’s body. This occurs after many encounters with nirvikalpa samâdhi. Through harness- ing the power of sâdhana and tapas, the adept advances his evolution, moving ahead ten lives or more. Only great tapasvins achieve jîvanmukti, for to catalyze the death of the astral body and then revive the life forces, one must be proficient in brahmacharya, yoga, prâ∫âyâma and the varied sâdhanas. It is a grace, made possible by guidance of a living satguru, attained by single-minded and strong-willed efforts of yoga, worship, detachment and purification. Non-yogîs may be freed at death, provided all karmas have been worked out and the Self is realized as the body is released.

 

...

 

When nirvikalpa samâdhi has been practiced daily for many, many years—according to the classical yoga teachings, for twelve years—and the golden body has been built, the kundalini force coils itself in the sahasrâra chakra of the yogî, at the top of the head. This is known as the manas chakra, located about where the hairline begins at the forehead. This chakra eventually becomes the mûlâdhâra chakra, or the memory-pattern chakra, of the golden body.

 

The manas chakra is fully activated when the golden body is fully unfolded. This is known in Hindu and Egyptian mystic schools as the golden body of light, for it registers in the minds of those who look upon it, to their soul body, as a golden ball of light or a golden body.

 

When the kundalinî rises into the realms of pure actinicity, the pineal gland and pituitary center are activated. When these two centers are activated simultaneously, the forces of both of them merge, bringing man into nirvikalpa samâdhi. Therefore, the aggressive odic force merges with the passive odic force, in perfect balance, and the actinodic power of the sushumna current comes into perfect balance, poised with the kundalini force. The yoga adept finds himself on the brink of the Absolute, cognizing That which he cannot explain, knowing there is something beyond which the mind does not know, conceiving That which cannot be conceived, because form, which is mind, cannot conceive formlessness. Then the yogî touches into the Self and becomes a knower of the Self, merges with Siva.

 

When the ida, pingala and sushumna forces merge and reside in perfect balance, the third eye awakens. When the pituitary, pineal glands and the sushumna source are in perfect balance, man is able to perceive consciously into other worlds of the mind. The golden body, as it begins to grow after the renunciate, or sannyâsin, attains nirvikalpa samâdhi, is built by man’s service to his fellow man.

 

...

 

The usual experience before nirvikalpa samâdhi is for the aspirant to become a knower of the Self. This could occur at any time during his training. In order to attain this experience of “touching into the Self,” he must have a complete balance of all odic and actinic forces within him. A noted change in his life pattern often occurs after he becomes a knower of the Self, for the soul body has become released into orbit, and he has then a subsuperconscious control of this body. In other words, the odic-force tie has been released. This body has quickly matured. Then, if practicing contemplation as prescribed by his satguru and finally working out the various karmic binds or holds in the lower odic force field with the help of the guru, he attains complete Self Realization, or nirvikalpa samâdhi. Then the golden body, svar∫aßarîra, is born through the merging of the forces of the pituitary and the pineal gland, setting the sahasrâra into a constant spinning motion. This constant spinning motion generates the force which propels the yoga adept back into nirvikalpa samâdhi. Each time he goes into nirvikalpa samâdhi he intensifies a little the spinning movement of this chakra, unfolding it a little more, and as this occurs, the golden body begins to build.

 

When the yoga adept touches into the Self and becomes a knower of the Self, attains nirvikalpa samâdhi, becomes Self Realized, yoga powers come to him. These yoga powers are often renounced, depending upon the rule of the order to which he belongs, whether it be a teaching order or an order of hermits. According to the need, a power is developed. The powers that a yogî can use are as many as the petals within the sahasrâra chakra. They are 1,008. These powers are conceived through the nâdîs—small, elastic-like psychic nerve currents extending out into and through the aura of the body. The nâdîs work in conjunction with the chakras, and with the major currents of the body, Ida, pingala and sushumna.

 

 

 

 

The term "nirvikalpa" is used frequently in that book, so frequently that it is best to download the free pdf (or your choice of formats) and then do a search or read the whole book.

 

The main idea here is that nirvikalpa samadhi is both the doorway and the goal where sustained repeated efforts to remain in nirvikalpa samadhi is the key. Also note the reference to the development of the third eye. (Divine eye).

 

Also, the removal of the three fetters, karma, anava and maya is part of the equation. It is not really "removal" but making them so that they no longer bind, which is what the whole raja yoga teaching is about.

 

 

Next, back to the concept that nirvikalpa samadhi is like or similar to the higher jhanas.

From The wanderling link:

http://the-wanderling.com/nirvakalpa.html

 

 

As to the above opening sentence, "Nirvikalpa Samadhi is generally considered to incorporate the following four Jhanas within its scope," then going on to list Jhana's number 5 through 8, it should be so brought to the attention of the reader that the Buddha in his quest for Awakening was NOT able to fully find the answers he sought in the Eight Jhana States to his satifaction. They are, thus then, not the end all be all of Full Attainment. To wit the following as found in The Jhanas in Theravadan Buddhist Meditation:

 

 

 

"Before he became the Buddha, at the beginning of his spiritual quest, Siddhartha Gautama studied with two teachers. The first teacher taught him the first Seven Jhanas; the other teacher taught him the Eighth Jhana. Both teachers told him they had taught him all there was to learn. But Siddhartha still didn't know why there was suffering, so he left each of these teachers and wound up doing six years of austerity practises. These too did not provide the answer to his question and he abandoned these for what has come to be known as the Middle Way. The suttas indicate that on the night of his Enlightenment, he sat down under the and began his meditation by practising the Jhanas (for example, see the Mahasaccaka Sutta - Majjhima Nikaya #36). When his mind was "concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady and attained to imperturbability" he direct it to the "true knowledges" that gave rise to his incredible breakthrough in consciousness known in the sutras as Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi. So we see that the Jhanas are not only at the heart of his teaching, but also were at the heart of his own practise." (source)

 

 

I've read in many Buddhist writings that the jhanas don't make you enlightened. It is similar to what the Hindu Gurus are saying, yet a bit different. Both seem to develop the third eye (divine eye) and then use it to examine reality and see through the illusion. Staying in nirvikalpa samadhic states or the formless jhanas are not enough. There is still the elimination of the fetters to be done.

 

As the Venerable Henepola Gunaratana states in his book called "Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English":

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Mindfulness-Plain-English-Introductory-ebook/dp/B003X27ORE

 

 

THE SUPRAMUNDANE JHANAS

 

The supramundane jhana states are an absolute prerequisite to liberation. They take place at the end of both the insight meditation path and the jhana path. The supramundane is where the two paths merge.

 

In this series of states, the fetters, deep-rooted tendencies of the mind that bind you, are burned away without a trace. This is where the meditator does the final work of escaping from samsara.

 

These states sound truly remarkable and appealing, do they not? But how do we get there? We’ll start to answer that question with the next chapter.

 

...

 

The Supramundane Jhanas

 

There are said to be four stages in the supramundane enlightenment process. They are: stream-enterer; once-returner; never-returner; arahant.

 

The stages occur in this order and we will look at each of them in this chapter. You attain the supramundane jhanas at the moment of stream entry.

 

Those who attain mundane jhanas restrain hindrances but don’t destroy them. Mundane jhana attainers live happily so long as they do not lose their jhanic attainment. Those who attain the supramundane jhanas, on the other hand, destroy the hindrances as well as fetters.

 

Attainers of mundane jhana alone may still have the desire to “be reborn in the Brahma realms,” which is to say, to gain some better circumstance than they have now. They may still have hopes for some future self, different from and better than their present situation. But supramundane jhana attainers destroy any desire whatsoever to be born in any form or shape. It is written that, if the meditator attains the supramundane jhanas without attaining full enlightenment, he will be reborn a limited number of times, and only in higher planes of existence.

 

The final step of the path is the wisdom of full liberation. Everybody who attains any stage of enlightenment attains that state in supramundane jhanic concentration. Attaining full enlightenment brings rebirth to an end completely.

 

THE SUPRAMUNDANE NOBLE PATH

 

The supramundane jhanas are also called the Supramundane Noble Path. You began your practice with the mundane Noble Eightfold Path. There was still some doubt in your mind. When you overcome doubt, you see the truth for yourself and enter the Supramundane Noble Eightfold Path. From that moment onward, until you attain full enlightenment, you are following the supramundane level of the Noble Eightfold Path.

 

Each of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path has two aspects. The mundane aspect is “subject to the cankers, pertaining to the side of merit, and maturing in the foundation of existence.” The supramundane aspect is, “noble, free from cankers, supramundane, and a factor of the path.”

 

Even at the mundane level of the path, you have to develop right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness to attain right concentration. Now each must be developed fully, all the way to the supramundane level. Supramundane unification of mind is a noble, stainless state that abolishes any unwholesome mental condition.

 

Progress on the Noble Eightfold Path can be roughly divided into four phases. Each corresponds to a person’s level of jhanic attainment: Uninstructed worldlings are blocked by hindrances and fetters. They generally have no personal acquaintance with jhana.

 

Instructed worldlings have entered the mundane path. If they employ jhana at all, it is the mundane jhanas, in which hindrances are held at bay but not removed from the mind.

 

Noble Disciples have crossed over into the Supramundane Noble Path. They employ the supramundane jhanas to eradicate the fetters that hold hindrances in place and bind them into samsara.

 

Arahants have no further work to do. The fetters are gone and they use the jhanas for “pleasant abiding.”

 

All the steps of the Noble Eightfold Path are mental states. That is true of both the mundane and the supramundane expressions of the path. When you see deeply, as a real experience, with your own wisdom-eye, that all conditioned things are impermanent, your mind state changes. Your superficial understanding of impermanence becomes a deep understanding and you attain the stream-entry path. From that point onward, the Noble Eightfold Path becomes the Supramundane Noble Path and you start demolishing the bridges that connect this life with the next.

 

So, Bindi, you are correct in expressing doubt that nirvikalpa samadhi is all it takes to become enlightened.

 

[roger]

Thanks for sharing this roger. I guess in terms of the title of this thread your experience is that nirvikalpa samadhi is not a dead end. I still have a few questions though if you don't mind. 

 

Do you find that you are now able to attain this state more easily in meditation? 

 

Do you try to extend this samadhi beyond meditation?

 

Do you have a sense that 'sahaja' samadhi is attainable through continued time spent in nirvikalpa samadhi, or do you do other practices to free yourself from the vasanas?

 

I can experience it when I really and truly want to. It's like an invocation, like calling upon it, you invoke its presence, but I find that there has to be an inspiration to do so.

 

I feel that I extend the consciousness and love of samadhi to others in my daily life. Perhaps I'm doing that with you. I share the essence of it in the living of my life, because it's a part of me.

 

I wouldn't want to feel that much bliss or love as I go throughout the day. What we need to free ourselves from in my opinion is a sense of need or longing that is unfulfilled- a need and desire for absolute truth and one's true, divine nature.

 

I believe I've already fulfilled that need in myself.

 

I did say that I haven't found enlightenment in my first post, but it depends on what you mean by the term.

 

Sri Chinmoy speaks of "realization" and "liberation". He says that liberation comes first, before realization.

 

He defines liberation as "freedom from ignorance".

 

I think of it as when you've fully ACCEPTED truth, when you've accepted your divine nature and the perfection of everything.

 

I feel that I've done that already. As far as having a strong need for "realization" goes, it just doesn't matter that much to me. I'm fine with what I've achieved. After you accept truth, you kind of lose any "need" to take it further. You're already content. At least that's the way I feel about it.

[Jeff]

Gee, we really don't see eye to eye, I would have chosen that one as one of the worst. It doesn’t seem to capture the spirit of samadhi well at all, for a start he creates a distinction between nirvikalpa samadhi and sahaja samadhi which by all accounts doesn’t actually exist, as the two states are considered to be equivalent apart from the impermanency of nirvikalpa samadhi. And secondly he creates a building in which to posit these two distinct levels. Isn’t samadhi about dissolving? 

 

Yes, but as has been discussed earlier, nirvikalpa samadhi is a state that people "come back from". A salt doll that dissolves in the ocean, is telling a story of "cessation", as salt dolls do not ever reconstitute and come back.

 

With your analogy... if you see nirvikalpa samadhi as a salt doll dissolving in the ocean, then sahaja samadhi would be like knowing you are the entire ocean, not just something dissolved into it.

[Bindi]

I think in the state of nirvikalpa samadhi Ramakrishna who gave this analogy did feel utterly dissolved and not able to be reconstituted.  He says "I was for six months in that state of Nirvikalpa from which ordinary mortals cannot return." In the salt doll analogy he says "Then who was to come back and tell the ocean's depth?" 

 

His experience of nirvikalpa samadhi seems to be equivalent to your concept of sahaja samadhi, as he states "It (the salt doll) became entirely one with the water of the ocean" in reference to nirvikalpa samadhi and you state "knowing you are the entire ocean" in reference to sahaja samadhi. 

 

When a cup of sea water is removed from the ocean and left in the sun, after a while the water will evaporate off and there will be only salt left in the cup, which can be re-fashioned into a salt doll.  

[gatito]

 

Ramakrishna’s experience of Nirvikalpa samadhi, quite an interesting read:

 

 

 

985. I was for six months in that state of Nirvikalpa from which ordinary mortals cannot return. For after twenty-one days the body drops off like a withered leaf. Days and nights succeeded one another perfectly unnoticed. Flies would enter the mouth and nostrils just as in the case of a corpse- without producing any sensation. Hairs became all matted with dust. Sometimes even Nature's calls were answered unawares. Hardly would the body have survived this state but for a Sadhu who happened to come at this time. He at once recognised my condition, and also understood that the Mother had yet to do many things through this body-that many persons would be benefited if it were preserved. So at meal time he used to fetch some food and try to bring me to external consciousness by administering a good beating to the body. As soon as traces of consciousness were perceived, he would thrust the food into the mouth. In this way a few morsels would be swallowed on some days; on other days, not even that. Full six months were thus passed. Later, after some days' stay in this state, I came to hear the Mother's command, "Remain on the threshold of relative consciousness (Bhavamukha) for the instruction of mankind." Then appeared blood dysentery. There was acute writhing pain in the intestines. Through this suffering for six months the normal body consciousness slowly reappeared. Or else, every now and then the mind would, of its own accord, soar to the Nirvikalpa state.

 

986. The natural tendency of this (my) mind is upwards (towards the Nirvikalpa state). Once that state is reached, it does not like to come down. For your sake I drag it down perforce. The downward pull is not strong enough without a lower desire. So I create some trifling desires, as for instance, for smoking, for drinking water, for tasting a particular dish, or for seeing a particular person, and repeatedly suggest them to my mind. Then alone the mind slowly comes down (to the body). Again, while coming down, it may run back upward. Again it has to be dragged down through such desires.

 

http://www.bhagavadg...Paramahamsa.pdf

 

 

 

Interesting but - like the rest of them - incorrect...

 

What you've demonstrated in this thread Bindi is not that "nirvikalpa samadhi is actually a dead end" but that discussing it with anyone who isn't speaking from direct first-hand experience (and who has integrated that experience) is a dead end...

[Bindi]

 

Interesting but - like the rest of them - incorrect...

 

What you've demonstrated in this thread Bindi is not that "nirvikalpa samadhi is actually a dead end" but that discussing it with anyone who isn't speaking from direct first-hand experience (and who has integrated that experience) is a dead end...

 

When I came across Sri Chinmoy’s description of nirvikalpa samadhi, what he described basically sounded like an unnecessary waste of time to me, therefore the title of this thread. My assumption was that he had indeed experienced nirvikalpa samadhi, but if he hadn’t then of course my initial conclusion will be incorrect.

 

From your understanding, is his experience and Ramakrishna’s not nirvikalpa samadhi? 

 

Could you point me to a description of nirvikalpa Samadhi from a trustworthy text, if a genuine description exists.

 

Maybe this term, like many spiritual terms, is bandied about by people who believe they have attained something but have no idea of the reality of the term. I would accept that as a reality, I see it happen to many terms and concepts, but I would like some baseline from which to be able to judge these things, as I have never experienced anything approximating this state myself. 

[Bud Jetsun]

Could you point me to a description of nirvikalpa Samadhi from a trustworthy text, if a genuine description exists.

 

It's not a matter of trust, not a matter of accuracy, not a matter of poetry skills, not a matter of genuine experience or intent to communicate it.  

 

It's a limitation of words capacity to communicate inherently being tied to relating only from pool of experiences in the readers life experience repertoire, and even then only capable of relative comparisons between related experience rather than ever expressing an absolute (or any form of Truth). 

 

Even a Buddha could spend a lifetime creating the definitive through and precise written description of Nirvana for you, and when he is done it's a pile of paper and ink not Nirvana.  When a mind reads it and replaces their lack of awareness of Nirvana with any combination of words this is only deluding them further from awareness of the experience. 

 

 

 I would like some baseline from which to be able to judge these things, as I have never experienced anything approximating this state myself. 

 

Sincerely forgive all beings and situations for all things that may have occurred, may be occurring, or may be yet to occur. 

Mindfully conclude any word-based thought process, it can only be a web of delusion. 

Let go of everything you've ever held onto, including the thought of what letting go and "you" means. 

Appreciate with perfect mindfulness this one fleeting moment without judgement, without filtering and processing and identifying and sorting any aspect of phenomena as good/bad/indifferent. 

 

This is just some words not the experience, my words are no better than anyone else's, but in compassion for you made an imperfect guide that may or may not be of any value depending on the readers choice and capacity to interpret. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[gatito]

When I came across Sri Chinmoy’s description of nirvikalpa samadhi, what he described basically sounded like an unnecessary waste of time to me, therefore the title of this thread. My assumption was that he had indeed experienced nirvikalpa samadhi, but if he hadn’t then of course my initial conclusion will be incorrect.

 

From your understanding, is his experience and Ramakrishna’s not nirvikalpa samadhi? 

 

Could you point me to a description of nirvikalpa Samadhi from a trustworthy text, if a genuine description exists.

 

Maybe this term, like many spiritual terms, is bandied about by people who believe they have attained something but have no idea of the reality of the term. I would accept that as a reality, I see it happen to many terms and concepts, but I would like some baseline from which to be able to judge these things, as I have never experienced anything approximating this state myself. 

 

I think that I answered this previously: -

 

 

<snip>

 

What you've demonstrated in this thread Bindi is not that "nirvikalpa samadhi is actually a dead end" but that discussing it with anyone who isn't speaking from direct first-hand experience (and who has integrated that experience) is a dead end...

 

You'd be wise to drop your pursuit of this line of inquiry Bindi as, in itself, it's a dead-end, unless you find yourself in a position that you need to check that you've really had such a glimpse of ultimate reality or that subsequent to such a glimpse you need to integrate it.

Edited April 14, 2016 by gatito

[Bindi]

I think that I answered this previously: -

 

 

You'd be wise to drop your pursuit of this line of inquiry Bindi as, in itself, it's a dead-end, unless you find yourself in a position that you need to check that you've really had such a glimpse of ultimate reality or that subsequent to such a glimpse you need to integrate it.

 

I have found this thread to be quite useful, as it has led me to confirm to my satisfaction that the work that is necessary to be done to advance on the spiritual path cannot be done in the state of nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

Whether I have experienced this particular state or not may be entirely irrelevant to my goals, and I choose to concur with Ramana on this - that it is in fact unnecessary, no matter how exalted or how mysterious or how ineffable and unutterable this state may be.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Bindi

[Bindi]

It's not a matter of trust, not a matter of accuracy, not a matter of poetry skills, not a matter of genuine experience or intent to communicate it.  

 

It's a limitation of words capacity to communicate inherently being tied to relating only from pool of experiences in the readers life experience repertoire, and even then only capable of relative comparisons between related experience rather than ever expressing an absolute (or any form of Truth). 

 

Even a Buddha could spend a lifetime creating the definitive through and precise written description of Nirvana for you, and when he is done it's a pile of paper and ink not Nirvana.  When a mind reads it and replaces their lack of awareness of Nirvana with any combination of words this is only deluding them further from awareness of the experience. 

 

 

 

Sincerely forgive all beings and situations for all things that may have occurred, may be occurring, or may be yet to occur. 

Mindfully conclude any word-based thought process, it can only be a web of delusion. 

Let go of everything you've ever held onto, including the thought of what letting go and "you" means. 

Appreciate with perfect mindfulness this one fleeting moment without judgement, without filtering and processing and identifying and sorting any aspect of phenomena as good/bad/indifferent. 

 

This is just some words not the experience, my words are no better than anyone else's, but in compassion for you made an imperfect guide that may or may not be of any value depending on the readers choice and capacity to interpret. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

Bud, I don't relate to your non-critical no-mind philosophy at all, TBH I would prefer to be shot in the head than to submit to it, I think you can count me as a lost cause for conversion.  

[silent thunder]

Really enjoying the conversation.

 

Ramana also contradicts himself at times, nonetheless I find his overarching perception and advice to be sound. 

I don't get too hung up on contradictions of this nature; I find when teachers use enough words, contradiction is nye on inevitable; especially when dealing with states and concepts outside of duality.

 

As for the dead end concern...  I have yet to experience anything that was a dead end. 

They just don't exist as far as I have experienced.

Everything is grist for the mill.  Nothing is wasted, lost, nor unused.

[gatito]

I have found this thread to be quite useful, as it has led me to confirm to my satisfaction that the work that is necessary to be done to advance on the spiritual path cannot be done in the state of nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

I'm glad that you've found it useful Bindi and I wouldn't disagree with your conclusion, as there is indeed no work to be done in ultimate reality (because it is nondual).

 

Whether I have experienced this particular state or not may be entirely irrelevant to my goals, and I choose to concur with Ramana on this - that it is in fact unnecessary, no matter how exalted or how mysterious or how ineffable and unutterable this state may be.

 

I think that's probably a wise position to adopt Bindi.

[Kirran]

I'm not entirely sure how one can say it's a dead-end, exactly. Nirvikalpa samadhi isn't so much an experience as the only possible non-experience. There is no separation left. No duality.

 

It's not like you're just gonna go live in nirvikalpa samadhi, and it's not exactly that you are doing work while in it. But it is the understanding coming from it, and the grounding of that in yourself, which takes you places.

 

Not necessary. But going into nirvikalpa samadhi and then integrating it into yourself is one of the ways to attain enlightenment. There are others, too, certainly.

 

In my understanding, of course.

[Bindi]

Hi Bindi,

I must say, what an interesting thread. Your clear-headed-ness and mental perspicacity are a joy to watch in action! I enjoy this thread because it gives me the opportunity to review the knowledge that I've acquired over the years.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is not a dead end. It is a doorway that leads to a goal. From my understanding, one must go through that doorway repeatedly in order to clear the samskaras, vasanas, hinderences and fetters of maya and samsara.

 

Forgive me if I include a few Buddhist terms or ideas in this post as in that wanderling link you posted, it compared the formless jhanas to nirvikalpa samadhi, saying that they are pretty much the same thing. This has led me to study and compare the aspects which liberate. It seems that one or a few experiences of nirvikalpa samadhi does not remove the samskaras or vasanas nor does one or a few experiences of the jhanas remove the hinderences or fetters. However, in some texts it does say that those practices develop the "divine eye" or "third eye" and with the elevated ability one is then in a position to enter the higher states and then burn or eliminate the obstacles.

 

What did Yogananda write about nirvikalpa samadhi?

 

In "Autobiography of a Yogi" he calls it nirbikalpa...

 

He wrote:

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_9?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=yogananda+autobiography+of+a+yogi&sprefix=Yogananda%2Cstripbooks%2C211

 

 

However, in that book there is no mention of how to remove the samskaras or vasanas without having to deal with karma. One has to "work out one's karma" before they can progress to the higher realms..

 

 

So, in summation, the divine eye is the gate of nirbikalpa samadhi and gurus can help you through the gate, but you can't stay in the higher state unless you work out your karma. But, you can get a taste

 

 

 

The next major player is Gurudeva. Let's look at his "nirvikalpa samadhi" and how it is used to bring one to enlightenment..

 

In "Merging With Shiva" it says:

 

https://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/merging-with-siva

 

 

The term "nirvikalpa" is used frequently in that book, so frequently that it is best to download the free pdf (or your choice of formats) and then do a search or read the whole book.

 

The main idea here is that nirvikalpa samadhi is both the doorway and the goal where sustained repeated efforts to remain in nirvikalpa samadhi is the key. Also note the reference to the development of the third eye. (Divine eye).

 

Also, the removal of the three fetters, karma, anava and maya is part of the equation. It is not really "removal" but making them so that they no longer bind, which is what the whole raja yoga teaching is about.

 

 

Next, back to the concept that nirvikalpa samadhi is like or similar to the higher jhanas.

From The wanderling link:

http://the-wanderling.com/nirvakalpa.html

 

 

I've read in many Buddhist writings that the jhanas don't make you enlightened. It is similar to what the Hindu Gurus are saying, yet a bit different. Both seem to develop the third eye (divine eye) and then use it to examine reality and see through the illusion. Staying in nirvikalpa samadhic states or the formless jhanas are not enough. There is still the elimination of the fetters to be done.

 

As the Venerable Henepola Gunaratana states in his book called "Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English":

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Mindfulness-Plain-English-Introductory-ebook/dp/B003X27ORE

 

 

 

So, Bindi, you are correct in expressing doubt that nirvikalpa samadhi is all it takes to become enlightened.

 

 

Hi TI, your post was so very long and had so much detail it fairly overwhelmed me at the time, but I have gone back and re-read it just now and I can just wrap my head around parts of it.

 

One thing that stands out to me from your quotes is the level of achievement necessary before ever attaining nirvikalpa Samadhi. This is really the alternative issue in this debate.  For example in "Merging With Shiva Gurudeva states that "When the kundalinî rises into the realms of pure actinicity, the pineal gland and pituitary center are activated. When these two centers are activated simultaneously, the forces of both of them merge, bringing man into nirvikalpa samâdhi. Therefore, the aggressive odic force merges with the passive odic force, in perfect balance, and the actinodic power of the sushumna current comes into perfect balance, poised with the kundalini force” and “finally working out the various karmic binds or holds in the lower odic force field with the help of the guru, he attains complete Self Realization, or nirvikalpa samadhi”

 

I find it very hard to believe that all of those claiming to have attained the state of nirvikalpa samadhi have first brought the sushumna current into perfect balance as well as worked out all the karmic binds.  By the same token, I doubt that everyone who claims the experience of nirvikalpa samadhi has brought kundalini up sushumna to the level of the pineal and pituitary glands, which would also as far as I know  entail having resolved the two lower granthi’s.  

 

If this level of achievement is a prerequisite for the state of nirvikalpa samadhi, then far from being a dead end, I would see nirvikalpa Samadhi as in fact a brilliant and inevitable state of achievement towards the very end of the path.

 

So very likely the problem is in the definition, where states associated with trance as well as the perfectly balanced states referred to by Gurudeva are all incorrectly named nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

Out of interest, can you reconcile the position put forward in the quotes in your post with Ramana’s opposite position on the value of nirvikalpa samadhi? 

Edited April 26, 2016 by Bindi

[Kirran]

Sivaya Subramuniyaswami was someone who never had one guru, one teacher, one tradition - he basically found his way to Self-Realisation by a combination of willpower and fortuitous meetings with a variety of teachers (catalysts, he termed them), but was in particular based in his early teachers, esp. Mother Christney. The traditions they adhered to, and that he was therefore grounded in, were Christian esoteric traditions. Notably, Rosicrucianism. 

 

As a result of all this, the path he travelled, and the way in which he taught others to follow him, was very much grounded in a kind of esoteric mysticism. When he was a sadhaka, he needed that complexity, that esoterica. So he then attracts those students who also need that. This doesn't mean it's needed for everyone, or that everyone's way to nirvikalpa samadhi needs that. It may be that on other routes that absolute balance comes in your attaining to nirvikalpa samadhi.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI, your post was so very long and had so much detail it fairly overwhelmed me at the time, but I have gone back and re-read it just now and I can just wrap my head around parts of it.

 

One thing that stands out to me from your quotes is the level of achievement necessary before ever attaining nirvikalpa Samadhi. This is really the alternative issue in this debate. For example in "Merging With Shiva Gurudeva states that "When the kundalinî rises into the realms of pure actinicity, the pineal gland and pituitary center are activated. When these two centers are activated simultaneously, the forces of both of them merge, bringing man into nirvikalpa samâdhi. Therefore, the aggressive odic force merges with the passive odic force, in perfect balance, and the actinodic power of the sushumna current comes into perfect balance, poised with the kundalini force” and “finally working out the various karmic binds or holds in the lower odic force field with the help of the guru, he attains complete Self Realization, or nirvikalpa samadhi”

 

I find it very hard to believe that all of those claiming to have attained the state of nirvikalpa samadhi have first brought the sushumna current into perfect balance as well as worked out all the karmic binds.

 

Hi Bindi,

It is important to realize that in the second quote, namely:

“finally working out the various karmic binds or holds in the lower odic force field with the help of the guru, he attains complete Self Realization, or nirvikalpa samadhi”, Gurudeva is talking about the final result. He is not saying that in order to experience nirvikalpa samadhi one must first remove all bonds or holds permanently.. he is saying that in order to attain complete Self Realization one must work out the various karmic binds (fetters).

 

Complete Self Realization, which has a sense of permanency, is the result of that. But that is not to say that the karmic binds or holds cannot be temporarily loosened to let the practitioner experience temporary nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

The karmic binds can be set aside temporarily in order to experience nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

That is the beauty of it and it explains quite a bit.

 

Like, when Yogananda's guru touches him on the forehead, his breath is sucked out of his body and his awareness/consciousness expands to encompass the whole worldly scene. That was a temporary taste. Yogananda could not do that by himself but only with the help of the guru.

 

The way I see it is this way. Nirvikalpa Samadhi is transferable, but only on a temporary basis. Through diksha, shaktipat, a touch to the forehead bringing the pineal and pituitary in sync, the recipient's consciousness is brought into the central channel, sushumna where he/she experiences some form of samadhi, nirvikalpa samadhi included depending on how deep and long the experience goes.

 

Or, the practitioner can engage in various practices such as alternate nostril breath pranayama, kriya spinal breathing or even tummo to balance Ida and pingala and dissolve them into the central channel. For example, the heat from the tummo helps to loosen the granthis and one can temporarily experience occupying the central channel without hinderances. You can also occupy the central channel by balancing the left and right air flows (making the breath through both nostrils of even flow) then focusing at the third eye and sucking back into the center of the head where the pineal gland is. The effect is that it feels like you are quickly progressing through layers of consciousness, going into deeper and finer levels. If you continue, past the visions and lights that then occur and keep sucking backwards down into your heart area, you will feel like you are going to die.

 

 

 

By the same token, I doubt that everyone who claims the experience of nirvikalpa samadhi has brought kundalini up sushumna to the level of the pineal and pituitary glands, which would also as far as I know entail having resolved the two lower granthi’s.

 

 

Why not? I think it happens all the time with guidance, by fluke, by practice or just naturally. But it doesn't seem to be permanent. (And it would be the three granthis, not two, wouldn't it?).

 

 

If this level of achievement is a prerequisite for the state of nirvikalpa samadhi, then far from being a dead end, I would see nirvikalpa Samadhi as in fact a brilliant and inevitable state of achievement towards the very end of the path.

 

So very likely the problem is in the definition, where states associated with trance as well as the perfectly balanced states referred to by Gurudeva are all incorrectly named nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

 

Ok, let's see how Gurudeva defines nirvikalpa samadhi..

 

From "Merging With Shiva"

Self Realization: Direct knowing of the Self God, Paragiva. Self Realization is known in Sanskrit as nirvikalpa samadhi;"enstasy without form or seed;" the ultimate spiritual attainment (also called asamprajnata samadhi).

Esoterically, this state is attained when the mystic kundalini force pierces through the sahasrara chakra at the crown of the head. This transcendence of all modes of human consciousness brings the realization or "nonexperience" of That which exists beyond the mind, beyond time, form and space. But even to assign a name to Paragiva or to its realization is to name that which cannot be named. In fact, it is "experienced" only in its aftermath as a change in perspective, a permanent transformation, and as an intuitive familiarity with the Truth that surpasses understanding. See: enstasy, God Realization, liberation, kundalini, Paragiva, raja yoga, samadhi.

 

So, it sounds like nirvikalpa samadhi is not only the method but the goal as well, being that it is Self Realization.

 

 

Out of interest, can you reconcile the position put forward in the quotes in your post with Ramana’s opposite position on the value of nirvikalpa samadhi?

I think that not all that was written about Sri Ramana is true. Ramana wasn't big on formal methods, wasn't a scholar nor an intellectual. But lots of people tried to make him seem as such, or at least needed some kind of intellectual conceptualization to pin onto him.

 

If Ramana had the same definition, that Self Realization was Nirvikalpa Samadhi (as Gurudeva wrote), he would have still said "don't seek the state, seek the Self".

 

 

 

[Bindi]

Hi Bindi,

It is important to realize that in the second quote, namely:

“finally working out the various karmic binds or holds in the lower odic force field with the help of the guru, he attains complete Self Realization, or nirvikalpa samadhi”, Gurudeva is talking about the final result. He is not saying that in order to experience nirvikalpa samadhi one must first remove all bonds or holds permanently.. he is saying that in order to attain complete Self Realization one must work out the various karmic binds (fetters).

 

Complete Self Realization, which has a sense of permanency, is the result of that. But that is not to say that the karmic binds or holds cannot be temporarily loosened to let the practitioner experience temporary nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

The karmic binds can be set aside temporarily in order to experience nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

That is the beauty of it and it explains quite a bit.

 

Like, when Yogananda's guru touches him on the forehead, his breath is sucked out of his body and his awareness/consciousness expands to encompass the whole worldly scene. That was a temporary taste. Yogananda could not do that by himself but only with the help of the guru.

 

The way I see it is this way. Nirvikalpa Samadhi is transferable, but only on a temporary basis. Through diksha, shaktipat, a touch to the forehead bringing the pineal and pituitary in sync, the recipient's consciousness is brought into the central channel, sushumna where he/she experiences some form of samadhi, nirvikalpa samadhi included depending on how deep and long the experience goes.

 

I find the explanation that the pineal and pituitary are brought into sync temporarily quite interesting, where does this idea come from?

 

Yes maybe nirvikalpa samadhi may be transferable on a temporary basis in the presence of a Self realised person, but I think there is still an issue with too easily naming the state felt in the presence of many a guru/teacher who is not Self realised as nirvikalpa samadhi, which might be better named an experience of clarity or bliss or shaktipat or kundalini or some such thing.  

 

This also leads on to the question of is Self realisation a prerequisite for being able to transfer an experience of nirvikalpa samadhi?

 

Could this be an example of being able to transfer on a temporary basis the state which someone (in this case Ramana) has achieved:

 

 

Question: Ramana Maharshi sometimes said that there is a very small hole in the spiritual Heart. He said that in the sahaja state it is open, but in other states it is closed. Did your Heart open in this way in Bhagavan’s presence? Bhagavan also once said, in describing the realisation process, that ‘the downward-facing Heart becomes upward-facing and remains as That’. Did you have any experience akin to this?

 

Papaji: [After Bhagavan had told me that he could not show me God or enable me to see God because God is not an object that can be seen] he looked at me, and as he gazed into my eyes, my whole body began to tremble and shake. A thrill of nervous energy shot through my body. My nerve endings felt as if they were dancing and my hair stood on end. Within me I became aware of the spiritual Heart. This is not the physical heart; it is instead the source and support for all that exists. Within the Heart I saw or felt something like a closed bud. It was very shining and bluish. With the Maharshi looking at me, and with myself in a state of inner silence, I felt this bud open and bloom. I use the word ‘bud’, but this is not an exact description. It would be more correct to say that something that felt bud-like opened and bloomed within me in the Heart. And when I say ‘Heart’ I don’t mean that the flowering was located in a particular place in the body. This Heart, this Heart of my Heart, was neither inside the body nor out of it. I can’t give a more exact description of what happened. All I can say is that in the Maharshi’s presence, and under his gaze, the Heart opened and bloomed. It was an extraordinary experience, one that I had never had before. I had not come looking for any kind of experience, so it totally surprised me when it happened.

 

http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com.au/2008/04/role-of-heart-centre-in-self.html

 

 

 

Or, the practitioner can engage in various practices such as alternate nostril breath pranayama, kriya spinal breathing or even tummo to balance Ida and pingala and dissolve them into the central channel. For example, the heat from the tummo helps to loosen the granthis and one can temporarily experience occupying the central channel without hinderances. You can also occupy the central channel by balancing the left and right air flows (making the breath through both nostrils of even flow) then focusing at the third eye and sucking back into the center of the head where the pineal gland is. The effect is that it feels like you are quickly progressing through layers of consciousness, going into deeper and finer levels. If you continue, past the visions and lights that then occur and keep sucking backwards down into your heart area, you will feel like you are going to die.

 

But is this experience nirvikalpa samadhi?

 

 

Why not? I think it happens all the time with guidance, by fluke, by practice or just naturally. But it doesn't seem to be permanent. (And it would be the three granthis, not two, wouldn't it?).

 

Are the granthis somehow entirely bypassed in a temporary experience maybe, as opposed to temporarily undone?

 

Kundalini can be brought up sushumna temporarily, yes maybe. But does repeatedly bringing it up sushumna temporarily lead to permanency, which is related to the issue of impermanency of nirvikalpa samadhi. Does repeatedly bringing kundalini up sushumna actually fill sushumna with Prana which would then allow kundalini to reside there permanently?

 

 

Ok, let's see how Gurudeva defines nirvikalpa samadhi..

 

From "Merging With Shiva"

 

...Esoterically, this state is attained when the mystic kundalini force pierces through the sahasrara chakra at the crown of the head. This transcendence of all modes of human consciousness brings the realization or "nonexperience" of That which exists beyond the mind, beyond time, form and space...

 

So, it sounds like nirvikalpa samadhi is not only the method but the goal as well, being that it is Self Realization.

 

 

It’s interesting that nirvikalpa samadhi is associated with kundalini piercing through the sahasrara chakra. My view is personal on this but I think piercing the sahasrara chakra is itself a false aim, I still hold the view that kundalini should follow a route up to and then down from the crown without piercing Sahasrara chakra at all and on to the forehead. Maybe there’s something about nirvikalpa samadhi that I disagree with on a very fundamental level.

 

Maybe I like Ramana because he does seem to have a similar fundamental reservation about the value of piercing the sahasrara chakra, though he of course sees Sushumna as ending in the heart.

 

“the Kundalini Sakti … rises through a nerve called the Sushumna, the Sushumna is… a curve. It starts from the solar plexus, rises through the spinal cord to the brain and from there bends down and ends in the heart… If one concentrates on the Sahasrara there is no doubt that the ecstasy of samadhi ensues… [but if] he passes down from the sahasrara to the heart through what is called the jivanadi, which is only a continuation of the Sushumna… when the yogi has reached the heart, the samadhi becomes permanent.

 

(From Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, talk no. 616)

 

 

 

I think that not all that was written about Sri Ramana is true. Ramana wasn't big on formal methods, wasn't a scholar nor an intellectual. But lots of people tried to make him seem as such, or at least needed some kind of intellectual conceptualization to pin onto him.

 

If Ramana had the same definition, that Self Realization was Nirvikalpa Samadhi (as Gurudeva wrote), he would have still said "don't seek the state, seek the Self".

 

 

That makes sense, and this admonition does resonate with me.

[Kirran]

Sivaya Subramuniyaswami is the name of the person referred to here as Gurudeva, in case people think that was just random.

[3bob]

the knowledge or experience of someone out there is not our own...even if we have their writings memorized.

(granted some comparisons may be made but that is not the point)

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Bindi,

 

Perhaps this will answer some of your questions:

 

From "Kundalini Tantra" by Swami Satyananda Saraswati

 

 

Raja yoga, kundalini and samadhi

 

In the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali you will not come across the word kundalini, as this text does not directly deal with kundalini yoga. However, not every saint, rishi or teacher has referred to kundalini by this name. Kundalini is the subject matter of tantra. When Patanjali wrote the Yoga Sutras 2600 years ago, it was during the period of Buddha and about four centuries before the great era of philosophers. At that time, tantra had a very bad reputation in India because the gifts of kundalini, the siddhis, were being misused for petty purposes and people were being exploited. Therefore, tantra and tantric terminology had to be suppressed, and in order to keep the knowledge alive, an entirely different language had to be adopted.

 

In the raja yoga of Patanjali, emphasis is placed on the development of a state called samadhi. Samadhi actually means supermental awareness. First comes sensual awareness, then mental awareness, and above that is supermental awareness, the awareness of your own self. The awareness of forms, sounds, touch, taste, smell, is the awareness of the senses. The awareness of time, space and object is mental awareness. Supermental awareness is not a point; it is a process, a range of experience. Just as the term 'childhood' refers to a wide span of time, in the same way, samadhi is not a particular point of experience but a sequence of experiences which graduate from one stage to another.

 

Therefore, Patanjali classifies samadhi into three main categories. The first is known as savikalpa samadhi, that is, samadhi with fluctuation, and it has four stages - vitarka, vichara, ananda and asmita. The second category, asampragyata, is samadhi without awareness, and the third category, nirvikalpa, is samadhi without any fluctuation.

 

These names only indicate the particular state your mind is in during the samadhi experience. After all, the erosion in mental awareness does not take place suddenly; the normal mental awareness does not come to an abrupt end. There is development of one type of awareness and erosion of another. The normal consciousness fades and the higher awareness develops, and therefore, there is a parallel interaction between the two states.

 

Where does meditation end and where does samadhi begin? You can't pinpoint it because there is an interspersion. Where does youth end and old age begin? The same answer applies. And the same thing happens in samadhi as well. Where does savikalpa samadhi end and asampragyata begin? The whole process occurs in continuity, each stage fusing into the next and transforming in a very graduated way. This seems logical when you consider that it is the same consciousness which is undergoing the experience.

 

In tantra it is said that when kundalini is ascending through the various chakras, the experiences one has may not be transcendental or divine in themselves, but they are indicative of the evolving nature of consciousness. This is the territory of savikalpa samadhi, sometimes illumined and sometimes dark and treacherous.

 

From mooladhara up to ajna chakra, the awareness is experiencing higher things, but it is not free from ego. You cannot transcend ego at the lower points of awakening. It is only when kundalini reaches ajna chakra that the transcendence begins. This is where the ego is exploded into a million fragments and the ensuing death experience occurs. At this point savikalpa ends and nirvikalpa begins. From here, the energies fuse and flow together up to sahasrara, where enlightenment unfolds.

 

In tantra, sahasrara is the highest point of awareness, and in Patanjali's raja yoga, the highest point of awareness is nirvikalpa samadhi. Now, if you compare the descriptions of sahasrara and nirvikalpa samadhi, you will find that they are the same. And if you compare the experiences of samadhi described in raja yoga with the descriptions of kundalini awakening, you will find that they are also the same. It should also be noted that both systems talk about the same types of practices.

 

Raja yoga is more intellectual in its method of expression and is more in tune with philosophy, and tantra is more emotional in approach and expression. That is the only difference. As far as I can understand, kundalini awakening and samadhi are the same thing. And if you understand the teachings of Buddha and the other great saints and teachers, you will find that they have also spoken about the same thing but in different languages.

 

 

 

Another source, from Mark Griffin, is this. http://www.amazon.com/kindle/dp/B00EXS2PSA/ref=rdr_kindle_ext_eos_detail

 

This very short transcript of the "Samadhis Nirvikalpa" intensive contains quite a bit of detail about the mechanics of the Samadhis including nirvikalpa samadhi. I highly recommend obtaining the whole text..

 

Here is an excerpt:

 

 

In the nirvikalpa, all of these layers of subtle vikalpa, subtle mental activity, go into cessation. They cease to operate; they cease to be even recognized. The fabric of the subject and object has dissolved, and there is no interrelationship between subject and object. They have merged together and arise separately. There is no phenomenal experience because there is no identity present for which the basis of experience to arise. In other words, all of what would be considered distraction has dissolved –one's awareness and consciousness have merged together and have become one thing.

 

...

 

 

 

But even so, the Masters of consciousness would not say that nirvikalpa is enlightenment. They would be more likely to say that nirvikalpa is the stage of consciousness wherein one becomes truly capable of meditating on the Self. The elimination of all distraction and lower case mental operations of separate identity having been neutralized, one can then turn their consciousness directly onto the fathomless, incomparable and indescribable nature of the Self. And it is the nature of the Self, the realization of the nature of the Self, wherein the event that we describe as enlightenment takes place.

 

So there is this progression of movement of samadhi, from the flooding of the light of laya and the stage-by-stage dissolution of the archi-tecture of separate identity in the savikalpa, coming into a point of conclusion — "fulfillment" would be a better word, as nothing is ever concluded in the nirvikalpa.

 

It's interesting: in laya and savikalpa we see one's being being brought into contact with the light of Universal Consciousness, the dissolution of the separate points of architecture of identity through savikalpa, and finally being completely neutralized. The Self can finally be perceived, and one becomes capable of meditating on the Self. That process is pretty much thought of as beyond condition — it is neither infinite nor finite. The Self is without qualities, and is of the nature of enlightenment. And that relationship unfolds indescribably and indefinitely. When one first begins to move into nirvikalpa, all of the points of the architecture of identity are annihilated.

 

 

 

So, again, we see that nirvikalpa is not enlightenment but a gateway to the Self.

 

Also, here is an architecture from Mark Griffin (same book). Again, this excerpt shows that perhaps the sushumna does not terminate at the brow.. Or perhaps it does but the sushumna contains a time and space warp?

 

 

 

 

The dynamics and the mechanics of the central path, the central nerve of sushumna, is switched on from the full length of the sushumna —from the base of the spine, up through the heart, through the brain, into the crown of the head and into the space over the crown of the head. As the sushumna goes through sahasrara, goes through the crown of the head and goes into the space of upper sahasrara, there are a series of stages of increasingly advanced states of consciousness. The savikalpa starting in the space at the sixth chakra and the third eye, and the seat at the crown of the head; next space up is the univer-sal form of the kundalini; and then the space above the universal form of the kundalini, the third bindu.

 

There are four bindus or stations in the upper sahasrara. The vibration of the nirvikalpa has as its seat, the third bindu over the crown of the head. Mechanically speaking, that is the point of the sahasrara where the cessation of thought is established by its very nature. One of the tricks of going into the advanced samadhis is the use of the structure of the subtle body and the seats of the sahasrara. The sahasrara, of course, is extremely complicated. But there are four general seats: one at the crown of the head, some four inches above the crown of the head, up about a foot-and-a-half over the crown of the head, and then a place up about three feet above the crown of the head. The bindu of the nirvikalpa is in the space of the third bindu above the crown of the head. If you reach up there, you'll feel this magnetic center.

 

One of the things that takes place when we come to an Intensive like this, is that as the central dynamic of the Intensive, the seat of the nirvikalpa is being vibrated at the level of the mandala. Each person's seat of nirvikalpa and the mandala of the sangha in general, the vibration of that stage of consciousness becomes actively kindled. That sets in motion a wave of consciousness that is referred to as "grace waves". The first thing you become aware of is a descending pressure.

 

Sorry not to have answered your specific questions (although these quotes do answer some..), I will try to when I get a chance.

[Bindi]

Hi Bindi,

 

Perhaps this will answer some of your questions:

 

From "Kundalini Tantra" by Swami Satyananda Saraswati

 

 

 

Another source, from Mark Griffin, is this. http://www.amazon.com/kindle/dp/B00EXS2PSA/ref=rdr_kindle_ext_eos_detail

 

This very short transcript of the "Samadhis Nirvikalpa" intensive contains quite a bit of detail about the mechanics of the Samadhis including nirvikalpa samadhi. I highly recommend obtaining the whole text..

 

Here is an excerpt:

 

 

So, again, we see that nirvikalpa is not enlightenment but a gateway to the Self.

 

Also, here is an architecture from Mark Griffin (same book). Again, this excerpt shows that perhaps the sushumna does not terminate at the brow.. Or perhaps it does but the sushumna contains a time and space warp?

 

 

 

 

Sorry not to have answered your specific questions (although these quotes do answer some..), I will try to when I get a chance.

 

I think these issues regarding sushumna and the crown are fundamental, and I have spent quite some time trying to understand it.

 

Piercing the sahasrara chakra I am satisfied will result in an experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. To pierce this chakra, I also think kundalini must be necessary. I believe that the nature of kundalini is to ascend, and the crown represents the shortest distance between ‘shakti and shiva’. So in this sense nirvikalpa samadhi makes a lot of sense.

 

But the net result seems to tend towards a disembodied spirituality, where the body is more of an inconvenience than anything else.

 

I believe energy is meant to be drawn in through the crown, but not that consciousness should exit out of the crown, even though nirvikalpa samadhi can be experienced if it does.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

I find the explanation that the pineal and pituitary are brought into sync temporarily quite interesting, where does this idea come from?

 

Hi Bindi,

From "Merging With Shiva":

"When the kundalinî rises into the realms of pure actinicity, the pineal gland and pituitary center are activated. When these two centers are activated simultaneously, the forces of both of them merge, bringing man into nirvikalpa samâdhi "

 

There are many teachings, Raja Yoga, Kriya Yoga where the activation of both of those centers is key to higher spiritual consciousness. Even in the Kunlun practice called the Red Phoenix level 1, you connect a path from between the eyebrows to the center of the head (pineal) and then up through the top of the crown.

Mind you, not all schools are consistent. Some describe the third eye mechanism as being from the medulla to the point between the eyebrows and beyond.

 

Yes maybe nirvikalpa samadhi may be transferable on a temporary basis in the presence of a Self realised person, but I think there is still an issue with too easily naming the state felt in the presence of many a guru/teacher who is not Self realised as nirvikalpa samadhi, which might be better named an experience of clarity or bliss or shaktipat or kundalini or some such thing.

 

Yes, I agree. Remember, nirvikalpa samadhi is a state where breathing ceases and the personal identity (ego too) dissolves. It is a nondual state without subject or object. It is easy to transmit energetic states to other individuals and give experiences of bliss, clarity, visions, hypnotic trance etc, but those states are dual and have not dissolved the recipient's identity.

If the recipient is not flat on the floor, has no sign of breath and does not look dead, then it probably isn't nirvikalpa.

 

 

 

This also leads on to the question of is Self realisation a prerequisite for being able to transfer an experience of nirvikalpa samadhi?

 

 

That is a good question. Intuitively, I would say that in order to transmit a state one must first have had practical experience with the state to the point of mastery.

 

I would also think that by going into the state, it is also contagious to the people nearby. When Dhyanyogi had his NDE, when people would touch him, they would pass out..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyanyogi_Madhusudandas

 

Even after he became physically debilitated, he emanated an amazingly intense and extraordinary shakti energy field. People (and even objects) touched by or near him were long imbued with this transformative energy. In "Death, Dying and Beyond" he told how three or four different people who attempted to help him during his NDE experience immediately fell unconscious into deep meditative states when they touched his body. Only after he returned to his body to help them were they able to awaken from these states.

 

You said:

 

Could this be an example of being able to transfer on a temporary basis the state which someone (in this case Ramana) has achieved:

 

 

The Papaji experience that you quoted from Ramana sounds like a high level dualistic experience to me where Ramana showed Papaji part of his psychic architecture, not nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

Re: recount of sucking back from the brow into the center of the head and downwards.:

 

But is this experience nirvikalpa samadhi?

 

I would say that it leads to it because of the feeling of death and the disintegration of the small self.

 

Are the granthis somehow entirely bypassed in a temporary experience maybe, as opposed to temporarily undone?

 

I don't think they are bypassed, but I don't know for sure. The granthis are supposed to be where Ida and pingala wrap around the sushumna a few times, holding in the lock on the downward order of manifestation.

 

I know that through spinal breathing, one can occupy the sushumna and enter into a vast space where there is no more body (only what looks like a jellyfish of light) but perhaps even in that state the knots are still functioning, albeit looser. I don't know much about the knots. I know that heat loosens them. Some books say that the knots are pierced by kundalini. Othe books say that the knots are dissolved into the sushumna/central channel.

 

Kundalini can be brought up sushumna temporarily, yes maybe. But does repeatedly bringing it up sushumna temporarily lead to permanency, which is related to the issue of impermanency of nirvikalpa samadhi?

 

 

 

 

If you go by the model that nirvikalpa samadhi is a temporary state wherein there is no breath, no subject or object, that is like or is death, then you wouldn't want it to be permanent, would you? I believe, like Mark Griffin was saying, that the additional clarity and mental power that comes after experiencing nirvikalpa samadhi is the tool that is needed in order to realize the Self.

 

Does repeatedly bringing kundalini up sushumna actually fill sushumna with Prana which would then allow kundalini to reside there permanently?

 

I think that the sushumna already has prana in it and that kundalini is a concentrated form of prana. When the extra concentrated prana moves through the chakras, it gives them a boost, like charging them with superconsciousness. However, I don't think kundalini is a separate entity from the being that it is helping to give life to. I think it is more like wiring your oven to run on 220 volts instead of 120 volts. So, figuratively speaking, yes 220 volts can reside in the oven, but it is still an oven.

 

 

 

It’s interesting that nirvikalpa samadhi is associated with kundalini piercing through the sahasrara chakra. My view is personal on this but I think piercing the sahasrara chakra is itself a false aim, I still hold the view that kundalini should follow a route up to and then down from the crown without piercing Sahasrara chakra at all and on to the forehead. Maybe there’s something about nirvikalpa samadhi that I disagree with on a very fundamental level.

 

Maybe I like Ramana because he does seem to have a similar fundamental reservation about the value of piercing the sahasrara chakra, though he of course sees Sushumna as ending in the heart.

 

“the Kundalini Sakti … rises through a nerve called the Sushumna, the Sushumna is… a curve. It starts from the solar plexus, rises through the spinal cord to the brain and from there bends down and ends in the heart… If one concentrates on the Sahasrara there is no doubt that the ecstasy of samadhi ensues… [but if] he passes down from the sahasrara to the heart through what is called the jivanadi, which is only a continuation of the Sushumna… when the yogi has reached the heart, the samadhi becomes permanent.

 

(From Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, talk no. 616)

 

 

 

You know, various times Ramana said that the Heart is not the physical heart, nor is it located in any physical location.

Once one has reached the higher states of superconsciousness, you are hard pressed to find any body or physical landmark at all in order to gauge any type of relative physical location.

The other idea that comes to mind is that the sushumna is capable of great expansion. It gets wider. It gets so big, from my experience, that you find yourself in a wide open space that resembles outer space and there is not much of anything in there, just the very faint twinkling of stars in the distant background. However, whenever the love/heart chakra is activated, a different kind of space opens up that is filled with other beings, places and scenes. There is a characteristic bright golden light which emanates and a sense of purity, or sacredness.

If I was at Ramana's level I would be in a better position to know if he is right (or not) about the shape of the sushumna. I don't think I am at his level..

 

 

Yesterday I came across this book:

http://vimuttidhamma.org/Vimuttidhamma%20From%20Chakra%20to%20Dhammachakra%20by%20Piyadhassi%20Bhikkhu.pdf

 

I think you might enjoy it. It contains pictures of the chakras and how they are mapped to the jhanas. The pictures show the formless realms above the crown, much like what Mark Griffin was talking about (that the nirvikalpa bindu is located above the crown in the third bindu).

The book has also mapped the ascent of kundalini and explains how kundalini will only take you to the fourth jhana. Ramana did say that kundalini won't get you Self-realized, didn't he?

 

If you do a search in that book for kundalini, try doing a search for "ku". Due to the fonts that are used, a search for "kundalini" brings up nothing (on my iPad mini)

 

Here is an excerpt:

Chakras in the science of Yoga

 

There are electrical currents running through our bodies. The anode energy pole is located at the top of the head and the cathode energy pole is located at the base of the spinal cord. Life’s energy exists between these two poles.

 

Ancient Yoga philosophy calls the anode pole at the top of the head Viṣṇu’s castle and the cathode pole Queen Kuṇḍalinī’s throne.

 

The light that glows from Viṣṇu urges Queen Kuṇḍalinī to come to unite with him, and she has always been more than eager to go up to unite with the mighty god. In Buddhist and scientifc terms, however, if the cathode wave goes up to join the anode pole, we will be able to achieve the highest state of bliss, both physically and mentally.

 

In order to reach Viṣṇu’s castle, the cathode wave, or kuṇḍalinī, has to travel upward through various important spots in the body. In Sanskrit, these spots are called cakraṃ or padmas (lotus).

 

The position of kuṇḍalinī’s throne at the bottom of the spinal cord is called mūladhāra, which is symbolized by a lotus with four petals. The next chakra upward is svādhistāna at the nerve center slightly above the genital organs, symbolized by a lotus with six petals. At the navel is the position of maṇīpūra, shown in the form of a lotus with ten petals. Anāhata, the twelve petalled lotus, is the chakra at the level of the heart. Around the throat at the thyroid gland is visuddha, symbolized by a lotus with sixteen petals. Ajna is the chakra between the eyebrows, shown in the form of the twenty petalled lotus. At the top of the head is sahasrāra, or Viṣṇu’s castle, symbolized by a lotus with one thousand petals.

 

Within the spinal cord, there are three channels of energy called nāḍīs. The left channel, or iḍā nāḍī, is for the cathode wave and the right channel, or piṇgalā nāḍī, is for the anode wave. The middle channel, or suṣumṇa nāḍī, is the passageway for the kuṇḍalinī wave.

 

Normally, kuṇḍalinī dwells dormant at the bottom of the spinal cord. With the concentrated power of meditation, the yogi can awaken and pull the kuṇḍalinī wave upward, through the various chakras respectively. When kuṇḍalinī conjoins rmly at each chakra, it will enhance the strength of one’s mental power, which will increase successively from the lower chakras to the upper ones. The increased mental power can yield special forms of knowledge, e.g. the faculty of divine eyes (dibbacakkhu), penetration into another’s mind, recollection of former lives, and insight into future lives. Finally, when the energy reaches sahasrāra, one can achieve utmost power and the highest form of knowledge (according to rājayoga), namely the complete union with ātman.

 

The awakening and the pull of kuṇḍalinī as described above can be called concentration meditation. The Chinese call it the practice of inner energy ow. According to rājayoga, this is the correct way to train the mind. All these are cited herein for the reader’s benefit. In the past, knowledge about the mind was highly developed. Nevertheless, in comparison with Buddhism, the highest development of Yoga is equivalent only to the level of the fourth jhāna. It has also been claimed that in this state, one becomes united with ātman, the permanent self. However, this actually characterizes the attachment to bhava (being).

 

...

 

The awakening of kuṇḍalinī. At the bottom of the spinal cord, a mass of energy emerges. Warmth from this energy gradually permeates throughout the body. One can clearly feel the rising bodily temperature. This energy is kuṇḍalinī. Finally, it is awakened!

 

Svādhistāna and access concentration. Though the breath becomes very subtle, the one-pointedness of mind can still feel it and can clearly sense the in and out movement of the breath. The mind moves from mūladhāra up to the heart and then down to svādhistāna.

 

The movement of kuṇḍalinī. The mind moves from the heart down to svādhistāna. The whole body (specifically the trunk and neck) suddenly straightens automatically. Kuṇḍalinī energy moves from mūladhāra up to svādhistāna through the middle channel (suṣumṇa nāḍī).

 

The breath becomes more and more refined, the shining light brighter and brighter. The one-pointedness increases, predominating the mind and mixing it firmly at svādhistāna.

 

The level of one-pointedness in access concentration is about 90% of that of absorption concentration.

 

 

He says that in order to reach the first jhana, one activates the kundalini. As one progresses to the second, third and fourth jhanas, the kundalini rises up to the higher chakras.

 

However, in this model, the sushumna goes straight up and does not curve back down to the heart. There are points above the crown corresponding to the formless realms. So, although it is mentioned many times that you don't need to master the formless realms in order to gain enlightenment, if your want to master them you have to pierce or go beyond the sahasrara.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Tibetan_Ice]

I honestly see no reason to assume that there are energy centers piling up in the space above the head.

I never read about those in books I consider to be legit source texts.

Well, there are.

Why do you think that in phowa you eject your mind out of the top of your head?

 

If you ever try the practice of moving attention around your body (practice for Dzogchen prep from Alan Wallace), you will see that there is a spot about 1 1/2 feet above the head that emits a downward flow of blissful energy. There is also a white star at that location. There are a few stars up there. I can see them right now as I write this...

 

About 20+ years ago I did a meditation in which I was determined to find out what the star that everyone was talking about, which was supposed to be about a foot and a half above the center of the head. So I focused on that area with all my concentration and kept up intense concentration straight up at the location. After 3 1/2 hours I popped out of the top of my head. I found myself in a huge space which looked like outer space. I had the overwhelming feeling I was dying. Fear overtook me and I stopped. I remember that experience well because afte, I got up and walked to the kitchen for a drink of water, I saw two faeries come through the wall to meet me. I asked them what they wanted and they said that they were there to entertain me. I said that I didn't need any entertainment and asked them to leave.

 

A while later I went back into the space, overcame my fear of dying and had some interesting experiences. I also made friends with the two faeries later on and had some fun with them. I also discovered that I could reach that same space through a kind of tunnel that I found at the upper back of the head.. I don't know if that space is the infinite space jhana, but I guess it could be..

Edited April 30, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice