Is Nirvikalpa Samadhi actually a dead end?

[Songtsan]

Interesting!

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Tibetan_Ice]

Well, I can't argue with that.

How did the fairies look like? How tall were they?

They did not look solid at all, they were more like looking at holograms.

The faeries' bodies were covered with veils of translucent pinkish light that sparkled and glistened as they moved. Their wings were clear and looked like dragon fly wings. They were about 4 inches tall. I called the pinker one Ishta and the other Faedra. Faedra had a slight tinge of green near her back. When they moved they left a trail of sparkles which quickly disappeared. Little rainbow beings.

When they talked, there was no physical sound yet what they said registered as thought. I would ask them to go help certain people whom needed healing.. I worked in a hospital at the time and I was always seeing sick people, so I kept them busy.

 

Out of all the picture of faeries on Google, this looks most closely like them, although the colors were not the same.. And the wings were more rounded..

 

 

Actually, I wrote about that experience here..

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/35409-what-is-the-longest-youve-ever-meditated/?p=558998

Edited April 30, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Bindi]

Hi Bindi,

From "Merging With Shiva":

"When the kundalinî rises into the realms of pure actinicity, the pineal gland and pituitary center are activated. When these two centers are activated simultaneously, the forces of both of them merge, bringing man into nirvikalpa samâdhi "

 

There are many teachings, Raja Yoga, Kriya Yoga where the activation of both of those centers is key to higher spiritual consciousness. Even in the Kunlun practice called the Red Phoenix level 1, you connect a path from between the eyebrows to the center of the head (pineal) and then up through the top of the crown.

Mind you, not all schools are consistent. Some describe the third eye mechanism as being from the medulla to the point between the eyebrows and beyond.

 

Yes, I agree. Remember, nirvikalpa samadhi is a state where breathing ceases and the personal identity (ego too) dissolves. It is a nondual state without subject or object. It is easy to transmit energetic states to other individuals and give experiences of bliss, clarity, visions, hypnotic trance etc, but those states are dual and have not dissolved the recipient's identity.

If the recipient is not flat on the floor, has no sign of breath and does not look dead, then it probably isn't nirvikalpa.

 

That is a good question. Intuitively, I would say that in order to transmit a state one must first have had practical experience with the state to the point of mastery.

 

I would also think that by going into the state, it is also contagious to the people nearby. When Dhyanyogi had his NDE, when people would touch him, they would pass out..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyanyogi_Madhusudandas

 

You said:

The Papaji experience that you quoted from Ramana sounds like a high level dualistic experience to me where Ramana showed Papaji part of his psychic architecture, not nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

I would say that it leads to it because of the feeling of death and the disintegration of the small self.

 

I don't think they are bypassed, but I don't know for sure. The granthis are supposed to be where Ida and pingala wrap around the sushumna a few times, holding in the lock on the downward order of manifestation.

 

I know that through spinal breathing, one can occupy the sushumna and enter into a vast space where there is no more body (only what looks like a jellyfish of light) but perhaps even in that state the knots are still functioning, albeit looser. I don't know much about the knots. I know that heat loosens them. Some books say that the knots are pierced by kundalini. Other books say that the knots are dissolved into the sushumna/central channel.

 

If you go by the model that nirvikalpa samadhi is a temporary state wherein there is no breath, no subject or object, that is like or is death, then you wouldn't want it to be permanent, would you? I believe, like Mark Griffin was saying, that the additional clarity and mental power that comes after experiencing nirvikalpa samadhi is the tool that is needed in order to realize the Self.

 

I think that the sushumna already has prana in it and that kundalini is a concentrated form of prana. When the extra concentrated prana moves through the chakras, it gives them a boost, like charging them with superconsciousness. However, I don't think kundalini is a separate entity from the being that it is helping to give life to. I think it is more like wiring your oven to run on 220 volts instead of 120 volts. So, figuratively speaking, yes 220 volts can reside in the oven, but it is still an oven.

 

 

 The relation of Prana to kundalini is an interesting one. In a sense I agree that prana does seem to be a stepped down version of kundalini, but there is a property in working with prana not 220 volt kundalini that kundalini doesn't seem to have, and that is the ability to fill the main nadi's from Ida and Pingala to brahma nadi with 'prana under pressure' that persists beyond a meditative state. Sushumna when filled with prana under pressure eventually breaks into the more central vajra and chitrini nadi's, arriving finally at Brahma void/nadi.

 

Brahma nadi is the ultimate aim according to this perspective, which as far as I know doesn't rely on experience of nirvikalpa samadhi, though it does rely on kundalini rising in the end through Brahma void/nadi.

 

 

When the pressure of prana increases in sushumna then it transmits the pressure towards the vajra and when the pressure in the vajra become more and it is unable to bear it, the prana enters chitrini and in the end chitrini is also not to cope with the increased pressure of prana and they find their path into the Brahma Nadi.

http://kundalinisadhana.com/english-beejyoga/kundalini-index.htm

 

 

 

The Brahma nadi is pure in consciousness like the supreme consciousness (Brahman). The Brahma nadi is the void that connects to the Brahmarandhra, a void between the twin hemispheres of the brain, located in the Sahasrara chakra. One who knows this is the knower of the Veda.

A yogi who has established himself or herself in meditation at the Ajna chakra, in whom the spiritual energy of kundalini has risen into the brahmarandhra region, becomes a knower of the past, present, and future, trikaladarshi (tri – three, kala – time, darshi – seer). The yogi goes beyond time (kala) and cannot be touched by death (death is also called kala in Sanskrit).

Concentration on kundalini within Brahmarandhra , the void between the hemispheres of the brain, brings about the final fusion of Kundalini, prana, and the mind. The union between Shiva and Shakti takes place and the highest goal of the true aspirant is thus achieved.

Chakras: Energy Centers of Transformation

By Harish Johar

 

Ultimately Brahma nadi as a destination seems to be at odds with the beyond the crown destination that you have presented, which seems to be more associated with nirvikalpa samadhi. Maybe these are just two different paths, and never the twain shall meet?    

 

 

You know, various times Ramana said that the Heart is not the physical heart, nor is it located in any physical location.

Once one has reached the higher states of superconsciousness, you are hard pressed to find any body or physical landmark at all in order to gauge any type of relative physical location.

The other idea that comes to mind is that the sushumna is capable of great expansion. It gets wider. It gets so big, from my experience, that you find yourself in a wide open space that resembles outer space and there is not much of anything in there, just the very faint twinkling of stars in the distant background. However, whenever the love/heart chakra is activated, a different kind of space opens up that is filled with other beings, places and scenes. There is a characteristic bright golden light which emanates and a sense of purity, or sacredness.

If I was at Ramana's level I would be in a better position to know if he is right (or not) about the shape of the sushumna. I don't think I am at his level..

 

 

Yesterday I came across this book:

http://vimuttidhamma.org/Vimuttidhamma%20From%20Chakra%20to%20Dhammachakra%20by%20Piyadhassi%20Bhikkhu.pdf

 

I think you might enjoy it. It contains pictures of the chakras and how they are mapped to the jhanas. The pictures show the formless realms above the crown, much like what Mark Griffin was talking about (that the nirvikalpa bindu is located above the crown in the third bindu).

The book has also mapped the ascent of kundalini and explains how kundalini will only take you to the fourth jhana. Ramana did say that kundalini won't get you Self-realized, didn't he?

 

Yes, which seems to be borne out by the reports of those who have experienced kundalini rising in the West. 

 

 

If you do a search in that book for kundalini, try doing a search for "ku". Due to the fonts that are used, a search for "kundalini" brings up nothing (on my iPad mini)

 

Here is an excerpt:

He says that in order to reach the first jhana, one activates the kundalini. As one progresses to the second, third and fourth jhanas, the kundalini rises up to the higher chakras.

 

However, in this model, the sushumna goes straight up and does not curve back down to the heart. There are points above the crown corresponding to the formless realms. So, although it is mentioned many times that you don't need to master the formless realms in order to gain enlightenment, if your want to master them you have to pierce or go beyond the sahasrara.

 

 

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Edited May 2, 2016 by Bindi

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

The relation of Prana to kundalini is an interesting one. In a sense I agree that prana does seem to be a stepped down version of kundalini, but there is a property in working with prana not 220 volt kundalini that kundalini doesn't seem to have, and that is the ability to fill the main nadi's from Ida and Pingala to brahma nadi with 'prana under pressure' that persists beyond a meditative state. Sushumna when filled with prana under pressure eventually breaks into the more central vajra and chitrini nadi's, arriving finally at Brahma void/nadi.

 

Brahma nadi is the ultimate aim according to this perspective, which as far as I know doesn't rely on experience of nirvikalpa samadhi, though it does rely on kundalini rising in the end through Brahma void/nadi.

 

 

Interesting. Do you know where the Brahma nadi starts and stops?

While looking over the Beej website, I found this page, which states that there are thirteen chakras above sahasrara...

http://kundalinisadhana.com/english-beejyoga/kundalini-index.htm

 

(Hmmm. The link does not go straight to the page. The link is in Part2, hmmm. Try copying the link from the menu instead. Here goes..)

 

http://kundalinisadhana.com/english-beejyoga/part-2-13.htm

There are many Chakras situated above the Thousand petalled lotus. Of these thirteen chakras are engaged in generating light for the Brahmanda. Two chakras, out of these, the lalna and Guru chakras open out the path for Brahma-Randhra. Therefore Lalna and Guru chakra are being described here :-

 

Therefore, there are destinations above the sahasrara, which, if the sushumna arches over the head and terminates beyond the eyebrows, are not part of the sushumna. But it can't be that cut and dried..

 

Ultimately Brahma nadi as a destination seems to be at odds with the beyond the crown destination that you have presented, which seems to be more associated with nirvikalpa samadhi. Maybe these are just two different paths, and never the twain shall meet?

 

 

Well,...

 

But again, the quote from the Beej website says "Two chakras, out of these, the lalna and Guru chakras open out the path for Brahma-Randhra. ". And if, according to your second quote, "The Brahma nadi is the void that connects to the Brahmarandhra, a void between the twin hemispheres of the brain, located in the Sahasrara chakra.", the brahmarandra is contained within the sahasrara or brain (same location), then the chakras above the sahasrara must be connected via some other formation.

 

At this point it almost seems to me that the kundalini moves in the lower seven chakras and that the higher chakras above the crown require a more subtle form of access.

 

Mark Griffin also talks about the Guru chakra, but the way he talks about it, it seems to be part of the sushumna...

 

Here..

http://www.amazon.com/Deepen-Your-Practice-11-Radar-ebook/dp/B005RJKM66

 

He says:

It also exists in the subtle physical body at the very top of the sushumna, but inside the contour of the human body. In other words, it’s underneath the skull. The sushumna moves from the base of the spine up through the brain, up to the space at the crown of the head, into the space over the crown of the head. The architecture of the sushumna is like an antenna that is designed to capture and express the vibration of all of the worlds of the creation. In other words, everyone and everything is inside sushumna. The arc of your incarnations take place as the movement in sushumna and in the manipulation of the subtle, phenomenal points of consciousness that are attenuated to sushumna. From the crown of the head down through the six chakras, into the root, through the root down into the earth, and the space over the crown of the head where there is a dazzling array of instruments of consciousness dedicated to conducting the supraconscious, at an incredible velocity at an incredible level of energy. This triangular shape at the top of the sushumna is a part of the architecture of the sahasrara, and is the interface between the crown of the head and below, and the space over the crown of the head. Loosely speaking, from the crown of the head down, the vibration is said to be inside the order of the wheel of time; in the space over the crown of the head, it is in a kind of supra-reality that is outside of time, eternal and without change. It is in this movement of consciousness up and down sushumna where the operation of time is relative, that we begin to see the idea of past, present and future. And we also see that that idea of three times and thus three places, is a relative perception.

 

Ah, he also says:

Brahmarandra (“ The hole of Brahman”) Located in the thousand-petaled chakra at the crown of the head, it is the soft spot at the brain found in infants; the point where the infusion of life takes place in the human being. It is just underneath the skull embedded in the upper layer of the cerebrum, which is the part of the brain that is dedicated to the highest brain functions. This is also the seat of the Guru. It is the superior place to exit the body upon death.

 

Interesting!

 

And finally, Mark defines the location of nirvikalpa samadhi as the "upper realms of the sushumna"

World (or Loka) of the Thirty-Three This is located above the crown of the head at the upper realm of the sushumna. There is found all of the supraconscious structures of gods and goddesses, the supraconscious worlds, the seat of the ten Mahavidyas, the seats of the savikalpa and nirvikalpa samadhi, and the seat of great union. They are all in this space up over the crown of the head.

 

Edited May 2, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Bindi]

Interesting. Do you know where the Brahma nadi starts and stops?

While looking over the Beej website, I found this page, which states that there are thirteen chakras above sahasrara...

http://kundalinisadhana.com/english-beejyoga/kundalini-index.htm

 

(Hmmm. The link does not go straight to the page. The link is in Part2, hmmm. Try copying the link from the menu instead. Here goes..)

 

http://kundalinisadhana.com/english-beejyoga/part-2-13.htm

Therefore, there are destinations above the sahasrara, which, if the sushumna arches over the head and terminates beyond the eyebrows, are not part of the sushumna. But it can't be that cut and dried..

 

Well,...

 

But again, the quote from the Beej website says "Two chakras, out of these, the lalna and Guru chakras open out the path for Brahma-Randhra. ". And if, according to your second quote, "The Brahma nadi is the void that connects to the Brahmarandhra, a void between the twin hemispheres of the brain, located in the Sahasrara chakra.", the brahmarandra is contained within the sahasrara or brain (same location), then the chakras above the sahasrara must be connected via some other formation.

 

At this point it almost seems to me that the kundalini moves in the lower seven chakras and that the higher chakras above the crown require a more subtle form of access.

 

Mark Griffin also talks about the Guru chakra, but the way he talks about it, it seems to be part of the sushumna...

 

Here..

http://www.amazon.com/Deepen-Your-Practice-11-Radar-ebook/dp/B005RJKM66

 

He says:

Ah, he also says:

Interesting!

 

And finally, Mark defines the location of nirvikalpa samadhi as the "upper realms of the sushumna"

I think a big problem here is the placement of these various chakras. I have seen guru chakra referred to as at the forehead (eg. swamij, swami rama), I read through some of swami rama's page here http://www.that-first.com/show/article/swami-rama-on-the-guru-chakra/ it was quite interesting regarding this topic and the value of the chakra at the forehead, whatever its name.

 

AFAIK Brahma nadi is associated with crossing a void between chitrini nadi which has been established in the central channel up to forehead level and the chakra at the forehead.

 

One of my main issues with the forehead is I think it is the place where kundalini needs to be brought, not that it is the end of the path. I suspect the spiritual body develops from here as opposed to out of the crown, and that spiritual body would involve chakras above the head.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Bindi

[Bindi]

 

 

At this point it almost seems to me that the kundalini moves in the lower seven chakras and that the higher chakras above the crown require a more subtle form of access.

 

...

 

I've been thinking that Prana might be better understood as equivalent to jing>Qi>Shen produced in the dantians which is used to clear and fill the channels, and that kundalini only needs to be raised when the route to Brahma nadi has been established - it's use then would be as an immensely powerful stream of energy directed along a narrow channel, mixed with very refined Prana, and perhaps being instrumental in generating or developing the spiritual body and the higher chakras in some way?    

Edited May 3, 2016 by Bindi

[lino]

The word "samadhi" is not accurate. It is not a "pleasant concentration". It is a higher health state. Visible people do not ever go through these states. Life expectancy has been 30 years for visible people for so many thousands of years. A recent global increase of 65 years was noted by the C.I.A. world book.

 

There are 12 consciousness levels. If you have a two percent DNA hit for abusive actions;you will have a 35 percent hit on consciousness and a 2 percent hit on healing of the body and brain. What I mentioned before is a hit for a first time issue.

 

I don't like what was mentioned. Romantizing it and not describing body confirmation signs is an issue.

 

It is not productive to go into the higher health state after you make it to the highest level. It is only good to make a brief check to see if you are fully healthy.

Edited July 18, 2016 by lino

[lino]

You cannot have a higher health state if you have "chakras". A "chakra" is a foreign object; so is a "dantien" and "third eye".

Edited July 18, 2016 by lino

[lino]

I do not like the use of words "salvation", "enlightenment", or "realization". "Salvation" is accomplished after death by getting to your local pick up and drop-off spot and leaving to go to an advantageous underground level that has a longer life expectancy.

[Pilgrim]

Isn't going deeper just entering into a blissful temporary state more deeply?

 

Can work be done at any samadhi level to remove ignorance about the nature of one’s self?

 

Might the ego self even be strengthened by one's ability to enter this state?  

 

Coming into this discussion late so starting from the beginning of what is now 9 pages.

 

Isn't going deeper just entering into a blissful temporary state more deeply?

 

Yes & No.

 

Yes it is temporary in that the peak state or level of depth is not fully retained in the waking walking state.

 

When you go into the depths "using depth as an analogy that is", you bring the depths back with you "Temporary" becomes a shifting line in the sand with each dive you become more and more operable in the the state of the depths even in waking walking state this is a side effect of Samadhi nothing to work at during waking walking state, nothing you can do or imagine doing will lead you to this.

 

Can work be done at any samadhi level to remove ignorance about the nature of one’s self?

 

Samadhi handles this just being in this state called Samadhi takes care of the rest.

 

Might the ego self even be strengthened by one's ability to enter this state?

 

Do not worry about this in time it is taken care of. How? because the illusion of having an ego is no longer even a consideration. There is no need to ask who is this that believes they have an ego. Who is this I that believes in an ego.

 

In different traditions you will find different means and ways to enter Samadhi. It is up to the individual what they find acceptable.

 

One of the most important keys to Samadhi is letting go. Whenever you find yourself grasping to bliss let it go clinging to the door jamb will not allow you to walk through the door.

 

The point of entering Samadhi is not to see if you can go pearl diving or how deep you can go. The point of Samadhi is that it has no point in that your waking life becomes more and more indistinguishable from your peak samadhi states which go beyond bliss into indescribable presence of being.

 

It is not uncommon for people to become comfortable with their waking walking state and cease all contrived practices. It is also not uncommon for people to need to take a break from deep diving and grow accustomed to their life.

 

It is not uncommon for people to continue on and on.

 

In the energetic or Kundalini traditions with their roots in tantra it is indeed bliss that leads to Samadhi, make no mistake about this. Bliss is a difficult thing to explain in words it feels wonderful of course better than the best sex. Bliss however is not the goal it just happens as a byproduct a result of practices and it is more a membrane between where you currently find your existence and what is next.

 

Bliss is an energetic membrane where two different vibratory states or two different levels of awareness meet.

 

Bliss is the event horizon.

 

Samadhi the time spent traveling in the tunnel between dimensions of being.

 

It can happen that you are in Shallow Samadhi and become very used to it, when this happens you may find a small portion of your thoughts wondering is this all there is? If you let go and just be, before you know it you will feel the bliss growing and sometimes it will be so much your body can not handle it there is a tremendous amount of kundalini and if you will be with it 100 thousand percent with all your being ( If you can take it ) you may realize as you are returning to a state which has a mind  that you are without heartbeat and breath and need it not.

 

If this happens to you just one time all your questions concerning removing the ignorance of ones-self will be removed. This is not the end though, now you have to grow into the comprehension of this and the more often you dive deeply the better your comprehension will become.

 

I would also like to return to the part of samadhi where thoughts become present, by definition when you are in Samadhi there is no mind there are no thoughts and without either of these all you are is pure awareness. 

 

Awareness though is a very refined version of mind and there are levels where there is no awareness that can pass as anything close to being able to put in words. To be that is the goal of deep diving. To be whole and complete that in your root reality is the the goal. But to be that you will no longer be human nor walking the earth or any other imaginary plane for that matter.

 

There are levels where one is aware of the presence of there own mind / personality as a separate entity from there purity of being and wants nothing to do with that personality / mind that has preferences etc...

 

There are levels where there is no awareness whatsoever at all and these are areas you have entered where your awareness is not developed or refined enough to function entering these areas again and again is the point of samadhi because when you return you  bring this with you and like learning how to walk you learn also how to walk in these areas.

 

This is an important point because you are returning each time different and changed and this is in your daily life making life a fully present experience of being here now fully.

 

As soon as you become capable of being aware though you are introduced to the next area you can not be aware in...... until you are. In these areas of deepest Samadhi just being there changes you just like a stick of butter is changed by being on a hot frying pan.

 

Hot pan is fact.

 

Cold butter is fact.

 

Place cold butter on hot pan and both change by their interaction, butter melts and clean hot pan becomes cooled and wet with butter. Bliss is the flame.

 

When you return to being a cold pan however are you not coated in butter and different before the interaction? It is like this.

 

This may sound like drudgery of repetition but it is not as there is bliss and a certain something that grows in your being leading you to Samadhi

 

If it is a dead end then I have yet to find the end as I am still very much in the stage of growing into each new Samadhi experience and the best part is it keeps getting easier and easier.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Pilgrim

[dwai]

Coming into this discussion late so starting from the beginning of what is now 9 pages.

 

Isn't going deeper just entering into a blissful temporary state more deeply?

 

Yes & No.

 

Yes it is temporary in that the peak state or level of depth is not fully retained in the waking walking state.

 

When you go into the depths "using depth as an analogy that is", you bring the depths back with you "Temporary" becomes a shifting line in the sand with each dive you become more and more operable in the the state of the depths even in waking walking state this is a side effect of Samadhi nothing to work at during waking walking state, nothing you can do or imagine doing will lead you to this.

 

Can work be done at any samadhi level to remove ignorance about the nature of one’s self?

 

Samadhi handles this just being in this state called Samadhi takes care of the rest.

 

Might the ego self even be strengthened by one's ability to enter this state?

 

Do not worry about this in time it is taken care of. How? because the illusion of having an ego is no longer even a consideration. There is no need to ask who is this that believes they have an ego. Who is this I that believes in an ego.

 

In different traditions you will find different means and ways to enter Samadhi. It is up to the individual what they find acceptable.

 

One of the most important keys to Samadhi is letting go. Whenever you find yourself grasping to bliss let it go clinging to the door jamb will not allow you to walk through the door.

 

The point of entering Samadhi is not to see if you can go pearl diving or how deep you can go. The point of Samadhi is that it has no point in that your waking life becomes more and more indistinguishable from your peak samadhi states which go beyond bliss into indescribable presence of being.

 

It is not uncommon for people to become comfortable with their waking walking state and cease all contrived practices. It is also not uncommon for people to need to take a break from deep diving and grow accustomed to their life.

 

It is not uncommon for people to continue on and on.

 

In the energetic or Kundalini traditions with their roots in tantra it is indeed bliss that leads to Samadhi, make no mistake about this. Bliss is a difficult thing to explain in words it feels wonderful of course better than the best sex. Bliss however is not the goal it just happens as a byproduct a result of practices and it is more a membrane between where you currently find your existence and what is next.

 

Bliss is an energetic membrane where two different vibratory states or two different levels of awareness meet.

 

Bliss is the event horizon.

 

Samadhi the time spent traveling in the tunnel between dimensions of being.

 

It can happen that you are in Shallow Samadhi and become very used to it, when this happens you may find a small portion of your thoughts wondering is this all there is? If you let go and just be, before you know it you will feel the bliss growing and sometimes it will be so much your body can not handle it there is a tremendous amount of kundalini and if you will be with it 100 thousand percent with all your being ( If you can take it ) you may realize as you are returning to a state which has a mind  that you are without heartbeat and breath and need it not.

 

If this happens to you just one time all your questions concerning removing the ignorance of ones-self will be removed. This is not the end though, now you have to grow into the comprehension of this and the more often you dive deeply the better your comprehension will become.

 

I would also like to return to the part of samadhi where thoughts become present, by definition when you are in Samadhi there is no mind there are no thoughts and without either of these all you are is pure awareness. 

 

Awareness though is a very refined version of mind and there are levels where there is no awareness that can pass as anything close to being able to put in words. To be that is the goal of deep diving. To be whole and complete that in your root reality is the the goal. But to be that you will no longer be human nor walking the earth or any other imaginary plane for that matter.

 

There are levels where one is aware of the presence of there own mind / personality as a separate entity from there purity of being and wants nothing to do with that personality / mind that has preferences etc...

 

There are levels where there is no awareness whatsoever at all and these are areas you have entered where your awareness is not developed or refined enough to function entering these areas again and again is the point of samadhi because when you return you  bring this with you and like learning how to walk you learn also how to walk in these areas.

 

This is an important point because you are returning each time different and changed and this is in your daily life making life a fully present experience of being here now fully.

 

As soon as you become capable of being aware though you are introduced to the next area you can not be aware in...... until you are. In these areas of deepest Samadhi just being there changes you just like a stick of butter is changed by being on a hot frying pan.

 

Hot pan is fact.

 

Cold butter is fact.

 

Place cold butter on hot pan and both change by their interaction, butter melts and clean hot pan becomes cooled and wet with butter. Bliss is the flame.

 

When you return to being a cold pan however are you not coated in butter and different before the interaction? It is like this.

 

This may sound like drudgery of repetition but it is not as there is bliss and a certain something that grows in your being leading you to Samadhi

 

If it is a dead end then I have yet to find the end as I am still very much in the stage of growing into each new Samadhi experience and the best part is it keeps getting easier and easier.

 

Beautifully articulated!!

[Bindi]

Coming into this discussion late so starting from the beginning of what is now 9 pages.

 

Isn't going deeper just entering into a blissful temporary state more deeply?

 

Yes & No.

 

Yes it is temporary in that the peak state or level of depth is not fully retained in the waking walking state.

 

When you go into the depths "using depth as an analogy that is", you bring the depths back with you "Temporary" becomes a shifting line in the sand with each dive you become more and more operable in the the state of the depths even in waking walking state this is a side effect of Samadhi nothing to work at during waking walking state, nothing you can do or imagine doing will lead you to this.

 

Nothing I personally can ever do or imagine that will lead me to this, or nothing anyone in general can do or imagine? Is there a method that you share with people that can lead them to this? 

 

Can work be done at any samadhi level to remove ignorance about the nature of one’s self?

 

Samadhi handles this just being in this state called Samadhi takes care of the rest.

 

Might the ego self even be strengthened by one's ability to enter this state?

 

Do not worry about this in time it is taken care of. How? because the illusion of having an ego is no longer even a consideration. There is no need to ask who is this that believes they have an ego. Who is this I that believes in an ego.

 

In different traditions you will find different means and ways to enter Samadhi. It is up to the individual what they find acceptable.

 

One of the most important keys to Samadhi is letting go. Whenever you find yourself grasping to bliss let it go clinging to the door jamb will not allow you to walk through the door.

 

The point of entering Samadhi is not to see if you can go pearl diving or how deep you can go. The point of Samadhi is that it has no point in that your waking life becomes more and more indistinguishable from your peak samadhi states which go beyond bliss into indescribable presence of being.

 

It is not uncommon for people to become comfortable with their waking walking state and cease all contrived practices. It is also not uncommon for people to need to take a break from deep diving and grow accustomed to their life.

 

It is not uncommon for people to continue on and on.

 

In the energetic or Kundalini traditions with their roots in tantra it is indeed bliss that leads to Samadhi, make no mistake about this. Bliss is a difficult thing to explain in words it feels wonderful of course better than the best sex. Bliss however is not the goal it just happens as a byproduct a result of practices and it is more a membrane between where you currently find your existence and what is next.

 

The Kundalini Yoga path that I am aware of requires effort to be directed towards clearing the nadi’s and bringing prana to the most central brahmanadi which is itself considered to be divine, before Kundalini is raised at all. When Kundalini is raised in this central nadi, its purpose is to fully and directly realise one's True Self or True Nature which is one and the same with Absolute Reality, and which is considered to be the highest joy.

 

Does your Kundalini Tantra tradition recommend immediate awakening of Kundalini? Which specific tradition do you follow? It certainly sounds like a very pleasant way up the mountain, going from bliss to beyond bliss and indescribable presence of being, all very blissful. Have you achieved presence of being yet? Is this presence of being synonymous with one's True Self or True Nauture and Absolute Reality?

 

 

Bliss is an energetic membrane where two different vibratory states or two different levels of awareness meet.

 

Bliss is the event horizon.

 

Samadhi the time spent traveling in the tunnel between dimensions of being.

 

It can happen that you are in Shallow Samadhi and become very used to it, when this happens you may find a small portion of your thoughts wondering is this all there is? If you let go and just be, before you know it you will feel the bliss growing and sometimes it will be so much your body can not handle it there is a tremendous amount of kundalini and if you will be with it 100 thousand percent with all your being ( If you can take it ) you may realize as you are returning to a state which has a mind  that you are without heartbeat and breath and need it not.

 

If this happens to you just one time all your questions concerning removing the ignorance of ones-self will be removed. This is not the end though, now you have to grow into the comprehension of this and the more often you dive deeply the better your comprehension will become.

 

I would also like to return to the part of samadhi where thoughts become present, by definition when you are in Samadhi there is no mind there are no thoughts and without either of these all you are is pure awareness. 

 

Awareness though is a very refined version of mind and there are levels where there is no awareness that can pass as anything close to being able to put in words. To be that is the goal of deep diving. To be whole and complete that in your root reality is the the goal. But to be that you will no longer be human nor walking the earth or any other imaginary plane for that matter.

 

There are levels where one is aware of the presence of there own mind / personality as a separate entity from there purity of being and wants nothing to do with that personality / mind that has preferences etc...

 

There are levels where there is no awareness whatsoever at all and these are areas you have entered where your awareness is not developed or refined enough to function entering these areas again and again is the point of samadhi because when you return you  bring this with you and like learning how to walk you learn also how to walk in these areas.

 

This is an important point because you are returning each time different and changed and this is in your daily life making life a fully present experience of being here now fully.

 

As soon as you become capable of being aware though you are introduced to the next area you can not be aware in...... until you are. In these areas of deepest Samadhi just being there changes you just like a stick of butter is changed by being on a hot frying pan.

 

Hot pan is fact.

 

Cold butter is fact.

 

Place cold butter on hot pan and both change by their interaction, butter melts and clean hot pan becomes cooled and wet with butter. Bliss is the flame.

 

When you return to being a cold pan however are you not coated in butter and different before the interaction? It is like this.

 

This may sound like drudgery of repetition but it is not as there is bliss and a certain something that grows in your being leading you to Samadhi

 

If it is a dead end then I have yet to find the end as I am still very much in the stage of growing into each new Samadhi experience and the best part is it keeps getting easier and easier.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Bindi

[gatito]

Coming into this discussion late so starting from the beginning of what is now 9 pages.

 

Isn't going deeper just entering into a blissful temporary state more deeply?

 

Yes & No.

 

Yes it is temporary in that the peak state or level of depth is not fully retained in the waking walking state.

 

When you go into the depths "using depth as an analogy that is", you bring the depths back with you "Temporary" becomes a shifting line in the sand with each dive you become more and more operable in the the state of the depths even in waking walking state this is a side effect of Samadhi nothing to work at during waking walking state, nothing you can do or imagine doing will lead you to this.

 

Can work be done at any samadhi level to remove ignorance about the nature of one’s self?

 

Samadhi handles this just being in this state called Samadhi takes care of the rest.

 

Might the ego self even be strengthened by one's ability to enter this state?

 

Do not worry about this in time it is taken care of. How? because the illusion of having an ego is no longer even a consideration. There is no need to ask who is this that believes they have an ego. Who is this I that believes in an ego.

 

In different traditions you will find different means and ways to enter Samadhi. It is up to the individual what they find acceptable.

 

One of the most important keys to Samadhi is letting go. Whenever you find yourself grasping to bliss let it go clinging to the door jamb will not allow you to walk through the door.

 

The point of entering Samadhi is not to see if you can go pearl diving or how deep you can go. The point of Samadhi is that it has no point in that your waking life becomes more and more indistinguishable from your peak samadhi states which go beyond bliss into indescribable presence of being.

 

It is not uncommon for people to become comfortable with their waking walking state and cease all contrived practices. It is also not uncommon for people to need to take a break from deep diving and grow accustomed to their life.

 

It is not uncommon for people to continue on and on.

 

In the energetic or Kundalini traditions with their roots in tantra it is indeed bliss that leads to Samadhi, make no mistake about this. Bliss is a difficult thing to explain in words it feels wonderful of course better than the best sex. Bliss however is not the goal it just happens as a byproduct a result of practices and it is more a membrane between where you currently find your existence and what is next.

 

Bliss is an energetic membrane where two different vibratory states or two different levels of awareness meet.

 

Bliss is the event horizon.

 

Samadhi the time spent traveling in the tunnel between dimensions of being.

 

It can happen that you are in Shallow Samadhi and become very used to it, when this happens you may find a small portion of your thoughts wondering is this all there is? If you let go and just be, before you know it you will feel the bliss growing and sometimes it will be so much your body can not handle it there is a tremendous amount of kundalini and if you will be with it 100 thousand percent with all your being ( If you can take it ) you may realize as you are returning to a state which has a mind  that you are without heartbeat and breath and need it not.

 

If this happens to you just one time all your questions concerning removing the ignorance of ones-self will be removed. This is not the end though, now you have to grow into the comprehension of this and the more often you dive deeply the better your comprehension will become.

 

I would also like to return to the part of samadhi where thoughts become present, by definition when you are in Samadhi there is no mind there are no thoughts and without either of these all you are is pure awareness. 

 

Awareness though is a very refined version of mind and there are levels where there is no awareness that can pass as anything close to being able to put in words. To be that is the goal of deep diving. To be whole and complete that in your root reality is the the goal. But to be that you will no longer be human nor walking the earth or any other imaginary plane for that matter.

 

There are levels where one is aware of the presence of there own mind / personality as a separate entity from there purity of being and wants nothing to do with that personality / mind that has preferences etc...

 

There are levels where there is no awareness whatsoever at all and these are areas you have entered where your awareness is not developed or refined enough to function entering these areas again and again is the point of samadhi because when you return you  bring this with you and like learning how to walk you learn also how to walk in these areas.

 

This is an important point because you are returning each time different and changed and this is in your daily life making life a fully present experience of being here now fully.

 

As soon as you become capable of being aware though you are introduced to the next area you can not be aware in...... until you are. In these areas of deepest Samadhi just being there changes you just like a stick of butter is changed by being on a hot frying pan.

 

Hot pan is fact.

 

Cold butter is fact.

 

Place cold butter on hot pan and both change by their interaction, butter melts and clean hot pan becomes cooled and wet with butter. Bliss is the flame.

 

When you return to being a cold pan however are you not coated in butter and different before the interaction? It is like this.

 

This may sound like drudgery of repetition but it is not as there is bliss and a certain something that grows in your being leading you to Samadhi

 

If it is a dead end then I have yet to find the end as I am still very much in the stage of growing into each new Samadhi experience and the best part is it keeps getting easier and easier.

 

 

www.lakshmanjooacademy.org/god-is-revealed/

[Pilgrim]

Bindi thank you for starting this discussion.

 

Tibetan Ice Thank you very much for all of your research and shared experience knowledge and the reference material.

 

I have just completed reading the 9 pages comprising this discussion thus far and am very pleased and have gained an education into what it is I have been experiencing over the years.

 

For example:  Quoting Tibetan Ice When nirvikalpa samâdhi has been practiced daily for many, many years—according to the classical yoga teachings, for twelve years—and the golden body has been built, the kundalini force coils itself in the sahasrâra chakra of the yogî, at the top of the head. This is known as the manas chakra, located about where the hairline begins at the forehead. This chakra eventually becomes the mûlâdhâra chakra, or the memory-pattern chakra, of the golden body.

The manas chakra is fully activated when the golden body is fully unfolded. This is known in Hindu and Egyptian mystic schools as the golden body of light, for it registers in the minds of those who look upon it, to their soul body, as a golden ball of light or a golden body.

 

This is something I can speak to and verify as being truthful and correct until reading this I was not entirely certain what the golden body was all about, yes I knew this to be true but to read it so well explained is wonderful confirmation. I do enjoy understanding the mechanics.

 

It occurs to me it would be kind to share this with others so when it happens they will know.

 

As is part of my profile here on this site I do practice Kriya Yoga but not from just one lineage nor exclusively nor dogmatically as I do blend techniques from other traditions such as the Six Yogas of Naropa. Kundalini alone guides my sadhana. For example Navi Kriya is a very poor cousin when compared to Vase Breathing so it is substituted.

 

Oh it also occurs to me that it would be good to share some mechanical aspects, So I will.

 

A little background...

 

I have been instructed in Kriya Yoga from the following lineages in person.

Paramahansa Yogananda

Paramahamsa Hariharananda

Shibundu Lahiri

Ashok Chatterjee of India not in person but confirmation that the practices are nearly identical to those of Shibendu which is not surprising since they both learned from Shibendu's Father the Grandson of Lahiri Mahasaya.

Finally from the Pranabananda Lineage spending a great deal of personal time with Sri Rangin Mukherjee before and during the time of organizing and bringing him here to the United States with the help of a very good man I call friend.

 

Each of the lineages had very good practices all were convinced without a doubt that their dogmatic sectarian view was the only correct one.

 

Each Lineage is good and worthy of respect.

 

In my life I have been very fortunate and have been taught to initiate and teach others, I have taught very few people and tend to shy away from the idea of initiating others. Initiation is only a temporary boost as others have already shared, I do not share the religious ideas of Initiation but do honor the letter of the law for the sake of being lawful and honoring those who have given so much to me. In this way I think initiation is important. I also accept that people can use a kick start but it is not necessary just helpful.

 

Those I have taught received initiation from another yet did not fully comprehend and I was asked to help them, to teach them again and again until they comprehended each practice and this I have done with love and patience.

 

Sometimes the best thing to do is to leave people alone to practice and figure things out even though you are concerned and want to ask, are you keeping up with your practices? But this does no good as they will feel put upon, so I have found it better to encourage free sharing and let them ask when they feel the need, then I give them all in my heart.

 

Here are the Mechanics of my practice with some explanation of what comes from each one of them and why and the sequence below is very important.

 

I do not practice Yoni Mudra any more as the practice has already served its purpose traditionally though it is to be done last and only at night and only once per 24 hours. It can be done at any time but night time is best for several reasons which do not mean anything until you do it at night and discover the injunction is correct. In short it just works much better.

 

Talabya Kriya: This practice is done on purpose for two reasons and it is not to perform Kechari Mudra. The first reason is there is a calming effect on the mind that leads one to become introverted from the normal extroverted orientation to the outside world.

 

The second reason is to prepare the body so it will not be harmed when one day the Kundalini rises and seeks avenue into the higher chakras the 6th seventh and above. There are accounts of people tongues ripping when Kundalini decides the tongue shall go up and into the skull behind the soft pallet, Yogananda's boyhood friend shares this story I believe it is in the book called Mejda If I recall correctly which was written by Yoganandas brother.

 

When Kechari mudra does come by will of Kundalini everything changes. When it comes by will of Kundalini it is not mistakable during practices one keeps there tongue curled upwards touching the tip to the roof of the mouth or soft pallet or uvula if it will go there without strain. When Kundalini is moving in the spine the tongue will actively try to go up into the skull with out a voluntary effort to make it happen. As the years go by the tongue goes up rapidly during practice and it is very natural.

 

The tongue forming this mudra is a shadow of the astral or energetic body completing a circuit to the higher chakras. To say making the tongue go into this position and the astral or energetic body will make the connection is faulty reasoning. Some cut their tongues to get them to go up and I suppose eventually by the movement of Kundalini eventually the energetic body will make that circuit and then a person could conceivably experience what comes naturally in it's own good time.

 

The next practice is Bastrika 1 or 2 rounds of 100 repetitions followed by keeping the breath outside the body for as long as is comfortable followed by keeping the air inside the body for as long as is possible.

 

This practice is priceless as it stills the mind in beautiful satisfaction this also feeds the body and calms the breathing apparatus

 

The next Practice is called Maha Mudra and there are simple and more complex versions of it. Take your pick as long as the 3 basic locks are performed during the practice they are all equally good. Lock one the Anus, Lock two the Navel, lock three the throat. Without the locks it is just stretching and gives health benefits by keeping the viscera loose and the spine supple.

 

This practice is the one that frees the Ida and Pingali knots as they interact with Sushumna, it is superior to the 9 blowings of the  tibetan practice for equalizing the airs. You can practice without equalizing the airs but the practices are greatly diminished which is why this is done first.

 

The next practice is Navi Kriya this practice is meant to gain the safest entry point into Sushumna via the navel chakra. It is a practice that does work but it is weak compared to Vase Breathing & Tummo. I substitute Navi Kriya with Tummo.

 

The next practice is Kriya Pranayam of locating the chakras and tuning into them. This is done moving Kundalini using Mantra using breath and gazing into Kutastha to see each chakra but first you feel Kundalini move then arrive at the chakra then vibrate and revel in the bliss of that chakra all the while observing the glow but I confess the bliss tends to wipe out my senses as I become enraptured within each of these churches. This practice begins in the perineum as the starting point OM is reverberated in the coccyx region at the first chakra  this continues up to Medulla then radiates upwards into Bindu and even Sahasrar and this becomes the new starting point on the travel down Om is placed in Medulla then all the way to Muladhar and radiates to Perinium as an out flow of radiation. This is done only once.

 

The Perinium and Bindu do not receive the consideration of the chakras they are more like gathering point before the Kundalini moves forward to interact with the chakras.

 

The next practice is Kriya Pranayam Proper where all of the 6 Chakras are visited on the way up with a single inhalation which is different that what was just described. All are visited during exhalation on the way down. All receive the Kiss of OM This is repeated many times. The bliss experienced and the Samadhi entered are greatly enhanced by first practicing Kriya Pranayam of locating the chakras and tuning into them.

 

The purpose of this Kriya Pranayam is to scrape the sword to purify the path of Kundalini and release Karmic obstructions.

 

So far the purposes line up as follows:

 

Introvert the mind Prepare the body for Kundalini upward travels beyond the lower chakras.

 

Feed the body and calm the breathing apparatus

 

Separate Ida and Pingali from sticking to Sushumna

 

Cultivate and purify with heat and enter Sushumna at the safest region of the navel chakra 4 finger widths below the navel.

 

Traverse Sushumna and interact with the specific frequencies of each center worshiping at each church. Hah what a joke the bliss at each chakra is different and you are like a pleasure seeker enraptured in the greatest feelings imaginable that stall out your mind & emotions and leave you far far beyond where they can ever hope to follow beyond the shores of there existence.

 

Cleansing the path of sushumna and the chakras

 

So as can be seen we are starting from the point of lets say coming home from work after being out in the waking walking world what we do is ease into each layer going ever deeper into the core of our being but preparing the way first.

 

Kundalini is very much in motion from the very start but the path becomes clearer and stronger as each layer is traversed via contrived practiced devised specifically for the stated purpose and Bliss if what gives the impetus to continue on and each contrived practice elevates the bliss to a higher greater fantastic feeling level of incredible ecstasy and deep satisfaction.

 

After the preparatory work has been done and in my case Kechari usually forms during Maha Mudra or Vase Breathing the next motion once Kundalini has come to rest at BIndu during the last inhalation of Kriya Pranayam is to bring the Pineal gland and the pituitary into concert and that is done simply by focusing on the Fontenal and Divine Kundalini knows her circuit home and on the way does this connection for you.

 

Once ones awareness is in the Sahasrar enjoying the bliss of this one inhales and sings / vibrates OM 6 times in the Sahasrar and on the exhalation does the same six times.

 

The breaking of bliss of Kundalini comes in wave upon wave and Kechari which has been firmly in place continues to pump Kundalini up into the sahasrar the breath has already became stilled in Kuval Khumbaka many times during the earlier practices but here it stalls and halts is the most bliss stunend states of awareness on can imagine and for prolonged periods of time awareness becomes stilled. and the trick here is just to abide and not to attempt to control the process in any way just abide and in doing so a zero point of energy is encountered that is beyond imagination as it is every fresh and renewed from it's own stillness and as Jeff described in an earlier post it is just so.

 

When one has experienced everything described and things settle down one continues the practice. The more this is done the more powerful the experience the more blissful and if you do not pierce the Sahasrar you will remain at these levels of awareness.

 

Eventually you simply arrive and abide without modifications and stay like this for as long as you please and when you begin to come down bliss erupts and hold you aloft.

 

If you pierce the Sahsrar you will see the Golden body.

 

The final practice is something I was recently taught and was asked not to reveal for a couple of months so the request will be honored.

 

When I see the Golden Body it is known for what it is in a way words will not convey, so I will share what is seen and the impressions my mind can convey. A Golden Male Body without hair, naked but with no obvious signs of sexual organs, the body is masculine and well formed with good muscle tone. The face is much like mine in my youth between my late twenties and mid thirties but a more idealized and perfect version than this body ever wore.

 

This body sits in a cross legged fashion and it's volume is variable it can occupy the entirety of the bubble universe it inhabits or shrink to a size where entire solar systems can fit in the palm of it's hand, or even smaller. The emotional feelings that emanate from it are feelings of heart felt clear clean pure unalloyed joy and mirth which are conveyed in thought and feeling in a way that I know the joke is life and existence itself. The awareness is so refined and aware of the presence of my lower awareness and I know we are one as I am the dream of myself and this colossus is none other than myself and I am the dream of this great dreamer the play of his consciousness an imperfect fragment of the multidimensional totality of the whole. The Golden Body observed yet I get the feeling that there are those also like this one inhabiting there own bubble universe and these universes are like gestation bubbles and this one is still developing and I am a tool of his development as are these sharing. Furthermore this is not the end of the evolution in being even though it is far beyond human there is even further still to go.

 

I discover the human body calling to me it needs something and I am made aware that I am not breathing at this moment there is some concern and I have a choice I know if I ignore it, it will die, but I really do not care, then I feel and obligation not to let it die as if it would be a great wrongness but still my choice, so I have to return and my vision of this universe my ability to be here know here feel hear recedes and I find myself becoming aware of a human body as I vibrate to its frequency sitting on my cushion in deep silence the awareness reintegrating into this body is not desired it is rough and crude by comparison and do not know if I need to exhale or inhale so I inhale a bit to discover I am very full of air and release it and my mind comes back from a very great distance but it has been changed it now has qualities of what has just happened brought back the atmosphere of that place.

 

There is something I wish to point out before ending this sharing for now. It may be thought that Samadhi is the culmination at the very end of the list of practices. I guess this was true years ago. Now Samadhi is entered into during any of the practices and when it does I can feel it coming it took time to learn to just abide and let it go as it will then when returning continuing the practices.

 

The practices I have shared are as Kundalini has guided they are not strictly traditional Kriya and they may not be appropriate for others to copy so I have left out allot of vital points of the practices on purpose. 

 

To learn these things I would advise making the effort to find a teacher and get the instruction on the basic Kriya practice. The basic Kriya Practice has everything anyone could want to get to the point of purification of the energetic body and gaining the ability to feel prana and Kundalini and guide them and then Kundalini will pretty much take over and teach and lead the practitioner to what they need to learn next.

 

Kriya is good for people with a certain affinity for it, or for Tantra which has been so misunderstood and so much garbage written about it on certain websites by so called authorities that it does not even make sense.

 

There is a time when one will feel as if they are mounted by a woman while in practices and when this happens you know the real tantra all other things like visualizing, actually physically performing this seating with a physical human woman, or energetically doing so with a willing partner are not the real thing.

 

When I was a teenager I experienced exactly what Vivekananda did in his book there were some differences but the overall theme is exact.

 

Still there is much, much more road ahead to travel.

 

Again I am grateful for this conversation I never expected to find so much confirmation and explanation of the very things I have lived and it is comforting for the road ahead to know by the confirmation of others that they too have gone this route.  Maybe what has been shared will do the same for others. I sure hope so.

[3bob]

"God" searches out your true heart - not your knowledge of mechanics,

and only the Self can choose the Self.

[Pilgrim]

"God" searches out your true heart - not your knowledge of mechanics,

and only the Self can choose the Self.

Yes.

[Bindi]

"God" searches out your true heart - not your knowledge of mechanics,

and only the Self can choose the Self.

 

Can the false self accede to the Self, by allowing itself to be cleared away?

Edited December 2, 2016 by Bindi

[3bob]

sooner or later something has to give - or go back and start all over, or go in circles etc.., or finally hear and follow the still small voice which roars out !

 

for unconditional love is relentless but never heavy handed, hope that helps some?

Edited December 2, 2016 by 3bob