reality is like a dream

[Marblehead]

Oh!  Back to dreams.

 

I have mentioned before that I rarely dream.  That is, I am rarely aware of what my brain is doing while I sleep.  I can't even remember the last time I had a "bad" dream.

 

I still suggest that if we are conscious of our dreams it is because we have "real life" problems we have not yet resolved.

[Jetsun]

In a dream there is a central character (you) to whom all this stuff is happening to, then you wake up from the dream in the morning and you realise it was all a creation of your mind but there is still this central character to whom all this stuff is happening to it just now exists in your waking hours. But if you wake up from your life "spiritually" then the difference is that there isn't this central character any more, it is realised as just more imagination.

 

So I would say generally our lives are like dreams, in the sense that we are living in illusory mind created ideas of what we think we are, but reality isn't like a dream because when we realise reality we are no longer doing that, the central character of the story has vanished. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by Jetsun

[Geof Nanto]

"He who dreams of drinking wine may weep when morning comes; he who dreams of weeping may in the morning go off to hunt. While he is dreaming he does not know it is a dream, and in his dream he may even try to interpret a dream. Only after he wakes does he know it was a dream. And someday there will be a great awakening when we know that this is all a great dream. Yet the stupid believe they are awake, busily and brightly assuming they understand things, calling this man ruler, that one herdsman - how dense! Confucius and you are both dreaming! And when I say you are dreaming, I am dreaming, too. Words like these will be labelled the Supreme Swindle. Yet, after ten thousand generations, a great sage may appear who will know their meaning, and it will still be as though he appeared with astonishing speed."

 

(From The Complete Works Of Chuang Tzu, translated by Burton Watson.) 

[Geof Nanto]

Here is a Western interpretation of Zhuangzi from philosopher John Gray…..

 

Chuang-Tzu is as much a sceptic as a mystic. The sharp dichotomy between appearance and reality that is central in Buddhism is absent, and so is the attempt to transcend the illusions of everyday existence. Chuang-Tzu sees human life as a dream, but he does not seek to awaken from it. In a famous passage he writes of dreaming he was a butterfly, and not knowing on awakening whether he is a human being who has dreamt of being a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he is a human being.

 

Unlike the Buddha, A.C. Graham explains, Chuang-Tzu did not seek to awaken from the dream. He dreamt of dreaming more lucidly: 'Buddhists awaken out of dreaming; ChuangTzu wakes up to dreaming.' Awakening to the truth that life is a dream need not mean turning away from it. It may mean embracing it:

 

If 'Life is a dream' implies that no achievement is lasting, it also implies that life can be charged with the wonder of dreams, that we drift spontaneously through events that follow a logic different from that of everyday intelligence, that fears and regrets are as unreal as hopes and desires.

 

Chuang-Tzu admits no idea of salvation. There is no self and no awakening from the dream of self:

 

When we dream we do not know we are dreaming, and in the middle of a dream we interpret a dream within it; not until we wake do we know that we were dreaming. Only at the ultimate awakening shall we know that this is the ultimate dream.

 

We cannot be rid of illusions. Illusion is our natural condition. Why not accept it?

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ChiForce]

But he wants you to think so that he understands what you are thinking.  We men have a hard time understanding women most of the time.

Actually, that's how we see the world, including myself, before we are awakened.  Is psychology 101 stuff.  Nothing earth shattering...sorry...   

[Old River]

Yueya, I love the Zhuangzi and John Grey commentary. Thanks for sharing. Gray has been on my radar the past several months, but I've yet to read any of his books (only articles online so far)-- something I'd like to remedy this year.... What book is that Gray quote from?

 

I did want to add that to be fair, not all Buddhism gets stuck in the r"eal vs illusion" trap -- certainly not in Digen and Soto Zen at any rate. And Mahayana in general became aware of the contradiction and had its own ways to work through this false dichotomy (Nagarjuna being a chief example). But Zhuangzi does say it more straightforward way, which I admit I prefer.

[Old River]

Not "Digin"--- "Dogen"!

[ChiForce]

Oh!  Back to dreams.

 

I have mentioned before that I rarely dream.  That is, I am rarely aware of what my brain is doing while I sleep.  I can't even remember the last time I had a "bad" dream.

 

I still suggest that if we are conscious of our dreams it is because we have "real life" problems we have not yet resolved.

Not exactly...you are assuming that in the dream state, we dream of problems only.  For most people.  On the other hand, people who are advance on the path do astral travels during the dream state.  Some even receive visitations from their spirit guides or some immortal beings and receiving instructions and teachings.  The dream state is simply a reality which isn't bonded by the law of the psychical world or the rules of the society. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by ChiForce

[Marblehead]

Actually, that's how we see the world, including myself, before we are awakened.  Is psychology 101 stuff.  Nothing earth shattering...sorry... 

Darn!  And I thought that up all by myself.  Come to find out it has been said many time before.  No famous quotes for me.  Oh well.

[Geof Nanto]

Yueya, I love the Zhuangzi and John Grey commentary. Thanks for sharing. Gray has been on my radar the past several months, but I've yet to read any of his books (only articles online so far)-- something I'd like to remedy this year.... What book is that Gray quote from?

 

That quotation is from John Gray's,  Straw Dogs: Thoughts on Humans and Other Animals. 

 

 

I did want to add that to be fair, not all Buddhism gets stuck in the "real vs illusion" trap -- certainly not in Dogen and Soto Zen at any rate. And Mahayana in general became aware of the contradiction and had its own ways to work through this false dichotomy (Nagarjuna being a chief example). But Zhuangzi does say it more straightforward way, which I admit I prefer.

 

Yes, I like the gist of Gray's commentary, but I agree that he's being unfair to the sophistication of Buddhist theory here. He likes polemic - as you'll find if you read Straw Dogs.   

Edited April 14, 2016 by Yueya

[Marblehead]

Not "Digin"--- "Dogen"!

 

I can dig that.

[Marblehead]

Not exactly...you are assuming that in the dream state, we dream of problems only. 

No, I have never made that assumption.

 

For most people.  On the other hand, people who are advance on the path do astral travels during the dream state.  Some even receive visitations from their spirit guides or some immortal beings and receiving instructions and teachings.  The dream state is simply a reality which isn't bonded by the law of the psychical world or the rule of the society. 

Oh, I have had my share of "good" dreams in my younger years.  And dreams of inspiration.  And dreams of women, of course.

 

My spirit guides visit me when I drink too much Southern Comfort.

[doc benway]

Oh!  Back to dreams.

 

I have mentioned before that I rarely dream.  That is, I am rarely aware of what my brain is doing while I sleep.  I can't even remember the last time I had a "bad" dream.

 

I still suggest that if we are conscious of our dreams it is because we have "real life" problems we have not yet resolved.

 

Infants dream, animals dream, and most of my dreams are very pleasant.

I think our problems can express in dream as can our pleasures and successes. 

The activity of thought is not restricted by the sleep cycle.

I do agree that many of us have so much repressed and suppressed stress and anxiety that it seems as if dreaming is mostly related to problems.

[Jetsun]

Well, I think it's possible that you dream to be another person in another country living another life?

So, the constant that stays the same from dream event to dream event is only the dream (your awareness) itself,

not its content (which includes the identity / personality of the central character).

And this applies also to reality in case of reincarnation

or even in case of spiritual realization: Your awareness (the Natural State) stays the same, just the content changes from Samsara to Nirvana. Your nature of awareness doesn't change or even vanish in case of enlightenment.

Its possible I guess, but personally I don't recall any dream where the essential sense of the central character (me) has changed to someone completely different. Have you had dreams like that?

[doc benway]

Dreams are balancing your psychological state. I don't think reality is like a dream.If you have to put it like this, you are saying as if orange is like a banana.

 

I agree with your first sentence but not the second. An orange is like a banana - they both taste good, they're both fruit, they're both light in color and have a firm, inedible skin that must be peeled. Both have seeds and pith. Both grow from the ground on trees which have rough, brown bark and green leaves. Certainly there are differences but there are many similarities and knowing those similarities is helpful and instructive like with waking and dreaming. 

[doc benway]

I can dig that.

 

But can you dog it?

[Marblehead]

I do agree that many of us have so much repressed and suppressed stress and anxiety that it seems as if dreaming is mostly related to problems.

Yeah, I really didn't intend to cause it to appear that I think all dreams are images of negative stuff.  Far from that.  But I did speak to dreams being a reflection of problems we have in life so even though my post may have been misleading I will still stand by it.

[doc benway]

Yeah, I really didn't intend to cause it to appear that I think all dreams are images of negative stuff.  Far from that.  But I did speak to dreams being a reflection of problems we have in life so even though my post may have been misleading I will still stand by it.

 

Thanks for clarifying

[ralis]

I have archetypal based dreams which I guess are more Jungian. If I wake up before dawn, and return to sleep, I almost always have lucid dreams.

[Marblehead]

If I wake up before dawn, and return to sleep, I almost always have lucid dreams.

That used to happen to me but if I went back to sleep I would have a migraine headache behind my right eye.

[ralis]

One way to experience the dream like quality of the so called waking state, is to view with softer eyes, which are wide open, but relaxed with emphasis on closeness as opposed to distance.

Edited April 14, 2016 by ralis

[wilfred]

Dreams are balancing your psychological state. I don't think reality is like a dream.If you have to put it like this, you are saying as if orange is like a banana.

 

a certain amount of dreams are processing the daily junk, but they're far from being just a balancing tool. they literally are your psychological state, or what we would consider a direct representation of it. different layers of the same reality. if we expand 'psychological state' to encompass all our feelings at an energetic level, where they are arising from, that's more accurate. and even then, it's more part of an ongoing purification process. for example have a relatively peaceful day and your dream time has more chance to start dealing with the backlog, the deeper conditioning that's hindering us.

 

what happens when you penetrate really deep through these layers is where it gets interesting - lucidity and various levels of light/pure awareness experiences. this higher awareness can be carried into the waking state with increased direct perception and noticing the basic ground. more advanced people can even be aware of everything that happens between the moment they fall asleep and wake up in the morning. that's a whole different spin on how we generally think of sleeping - ie a more unconscious, seperate part of reality.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[doc benway]

If I wake up before dawn, and return to sleep, I almost always have lucid dreams.

That and daytime naps are generally the best time for lucidity.