When friends turn on you

[Marblehead]

Ah!  You're talking about a male/female relationship.

 

I don't know anything about those.

[Kongming]

I've gradually lost my two best friends due in part to my devotion to cultivation, but also just the fact that we've become different men. We've been great friends, more like brothers, since we were 12 years old, but by the age of 18 the seeds of our divergence began to become clear. My friends became interested in drinking, clubbing, partying, and had no intellectual or spiritual interests, whereas I wasn't interested in the former and had many of the latter. Surprisingly despite our differences we remained friends until about a year or so ago and now we no longer see each other and rarely speak. At first this distressed me only because I was used to seeing them often and had been such good friends for so long, but now I more or less am content being alone.

 

As to family, for the most part no one in my family understands me. My mother is supportive to a degree but probably thinks I am strange, whereas my father is a skeptic-atheist and really an anti-religious person and so mutual understanding between us in this area is nonexistent. My other family members either are unaware of my interests and focus on cultivation or else uninterested.

 

So yes, the spiritual path can be a lonely one which isn't surprising given that we are in Kali Yuga/the Dharma Ending Age. That said I've never had qualms being a loner and never actually feel lonely or in need of company, so this isn't a problem for me. That said it would be nice if there were other people who "get" you, but I suppose online comradery is sufficient. 

[doc benway]

Remember that 'serious cultivation' doesn't put food on the table or produce anything of value to anyone. It's purely mental masturbation. There is nothing wrong with masturbation, it's healthy when practised alongside the rest of life. You don't have to give up friends and family because you masturbate- or join a group of dedicated masturbators. To give up everything for masturbation might seem like a good idea, but it puts your survival at serious risk.

 

The aim of many Ashrams is to encourage what amounts to dependence by discouraging independent thought. If you haven't achieved enlightenment you are told you are not practicing dilligently enough. To every question comes the answer 'practice harder'. With the advent of modern communication there is now no requirement to go to the Ashram, the Ashram comes to you. The danger remains the same.

This is a very egocentric perspective. There are other perspectives that are equally valid. While cultivation may be valueless masturbation for you, it can be enriching, healing, and transformative for others. 

 

 

That its my view should be obvious as I said it. I'm not going to soften it up as if I didn't precisely mean what I said, that I should somehow suggest I meant less than I did, or that I didn't quite have confidence in saying it. I meant it exactly as I said and exactly in the way I said it.

I suspect Apech was suggesting that you acknowledge that there are other, equally valid viewpoints among people. 

 

 

I didn't give up the practices. I gave up imagining that the practices were any more than what they are, which is mental masturbation.

What happens after masturbation ? Mind goes blank after samhadi is reached. Relaxed, bliss. Sometimes you need to take a break from a busy mind, just as you need to take a break from the ever present desire to mate.

There is much more to cultivation than this.

 

 

Friends share your values, they don't oppose them, but first you must choose your friends by the values you hold. If you don't have any clear values, you won't have any clear friends. To believe that a friends opposition to your actions is somehow a justification, or affirmation that those actions are sound, seems a very treacherous method of judgement.

Having friends with different values gives us the opportunity learn that there are different, valid perspectives. We can learn from others even if they don't share our views. It gives us the opportunity to change and to grow. Surrounding ourselves with clones is stifling and stagnant.

 

 

So, a bit of insight: why do you need to go on a retreat ? Why does any kind of practice mean that it requires a church, Ashram or any other kind of special place ? Where are practices leading if they do not flow from the everyday realities of life. Why attempt to elevate something above reality ? These are questions you should ask, then practices can be put in their right context within reality. I would suggest very strongly that this is the Dao. There is no 'getting to' where one already is. First realise one is already and then everything comes from that.

One needs to be very quiet to connect with the subtle truth inside. This can be facilitated by retreat. Once stable, it can and should be brought effectively into one's daily life. 

 

 

So, then what is the difference between someone who goes blindly through life without being consciously aware and rational and one who practices long and hard for abdication from the mind ? The only difference is that one is ignorant of their ignorance, the other is deliberately trying to achieve ignorance. The result is much the same.

Meditation and cultivation are not about abdication from the mind. That may have been your approach but it is not shared by most, certainly not in Buddhist or Daoist traditions. In fact, it is exactly the opposite. Meditation is about transcending ignorance. The result is quite different. 

 

Your posts are consistently egocentric. I can't tell if this is your view of the world or simply your way of communicating online. Either way, I suggest it can be very valuable to acknowledge that others can maintain different, yet equally valid perspectives. We can learn a great deal with this opening of our mind. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by steve

[Karl]

@steve.

 

My posts are totally egoistic and my 'cultivation' eventually transformed into what it is today.

 

Meditation doesn't transcend ignorance; in its mildest form it's a pleasant rest and healthful, at its best it helps lean the art of mind focus, at its worst it casts the mind into the void. The same techniques are used for brainwashing and mind control. Like any tool, meditation is equally an effective as a destructive weapon as it is a tool of value. It's necessary to correctly guide it, not let it guide you-and especially not letting it's acolytes, Guru and other quacks have control over your mind.

 

There is no 'subtle truth inside'. There is truth and you must engage the mind fully to know it. It's useful to meditate in order to reach that conclusion by learning to hold focus on a single point without distraction. To hold the mind steady and train it for the next step. Otherwise meditation becomes a means to itself-there really are only a very few ways to hold a pencil, it's what you write that's important once you have mastered that skill of pencil holding.

 

I certainly acknowledge other people have viewpoints, they are welcome to argue their case as I will mine.

 

Many of the people I know have different values, mostly this is for practical purposes of trade, shared interests, communication and so on. If I discovered they held violently opposed values to mine, they certainly wouldn't be of interest except as museum pieces to be kept safely locked up. It's obvious this is true or you would end up with cut throats, thieves and liars as friends to learn from and that, is likely hazardous to my health. You can't learn much with your throat cut. I have only one friend and that's my wife. After that my family and then my wife's family because of the blood bond.

 

Clones ? Do you know much about the human race ? :-) I don't 'surround' myself with anyone. I retain total independence and complete dominance of my own sovereignty whilst I control that faculty in health. I ask no one to sacrifice for me, neither do I sacrifice for anyone else. I judge and I am prepared to be judged.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Karl

[Apech]

Judge not, that ye be judged.

[Marblehead]

My posts are totally egoistic and my 'cultivation' eventually transformed into what it is today.

 

 

That took guts to admit.  At least you are self-aware.

[Marblehead]

Judge not, that ye be judged.

 

Yeah, I know.  But it is very difficult to not judge.

[RigdzinTrinley]

I am in a cult I won't recover anymore

[Karl]

That took guts to admit.  At least you are self-aware.

 

It's doesn't take guts to admit it, I'm far more terrified of the consequences of denying it.

[Karl]

Judge not, that ye be judged.

 

Judge and be prepared to be judged. That's how justice thrives. If not, injustice and evil thrive.

[Karl]

I am in a cult I won't recover anymore

 

That's nice dear ;-)

[Apech]

Judge and be prepared to be judged. That's how justice thrives. If not, injustice and evil thrive.

 

Not from the stars do I my judgement pluck;

And yet methinks I have Astronomy,

But not to tell of good or evil luck,

Of plagues, of dearths, or seasons’ quality;

Nor can I fortune to brief minutes tell,

Pointing to each his thunder, rain and wind,

Or say with princes if it shall go well

By oft predict that I in heaven find:

But from thine eyes my knowledge I derive,

And, constant stars, in them I read such art

As truth and beauty shall together thrive,

If from thyself, to store thou wouldst convert;

Or else of thee this I prognosticate:

Thy end is truth’s and beauty’s doom and date.

 

 

[dawei]

Not from the stars do I my judgement pluck;

And yet methinks I have Astronomy,

But not to tell of good or evil luck,

Of plagues, of dearths, or seasons’ quality;

Nor can I fortune to brief minutes tell,

Pointing to each his thunder, rain and wind,

Or say with princes if it shall go well

By oft predict that I in heaven find:

But from thine eyes my knowledge I derive,

And, constant stars, in them I read such art

As truth and beauty shall together thrive,

If from thyself, to store thou wouldst convert;

Or else of thee this I prognosticate:

Thy end is truth’s and beauty’s doom and date.

 

 

At least cite Shakespeare as the source

 

 

At the round earth's imagined corners blow 

Your trumpets, angels, and arise, arise 

From death, you numberless infinities 

Of souls, and to your scattered bodies go ; 

All whom the flood did, and fire shall o'erthrow, 

All whom war, dea[r]th, age, agues, tyrannies, 

Despair, law, chance hath slain, and you, whose eyes 

Shall behold God, and never taste death's woe. 

But let them sleep, Lord, and me mourn a space ; 

For, if above all these my sins abound, 

'Tis late to ask abundance of Thy grace, 

When we are there. Here on this lowly ground, 

Teach me how to repent, for that's as good 

As if Thou hadst seal'd my pardon with Thy blood. 

 

John Donne

 

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

Meditation doesn't transcend ignorance; in its mildest form it's a pleasant rest and healthful, at its best it helps lean the art of mind focus, at its worst it casts the mind into the void. The same techniques are used for brainwashing and mind control.

 

Really?

 

What do you know about brainwashing and mind control?

 

Highly unpleasant subjects imho.

 

On consideration, I would like to make clear that the question is rhetorical.

 

The fact is, I don't want to know.

 

I know too much already.

 

on edit: added last two lines.

 

...

Edited April 19, 2016 by Captain Mar-Vell

[doc benway]

@steve.

 

My posts are totally egoistic and my 'cultivation' eventually transformed into what it is today.

 

Meditation doesn't transcend ignorance; in its mildest form it's a pleasant rest and healthful, at its best it helps lean the art of mind focus, at its worst it casts the mind into the void. The same techniques are used for brainwashing and mind control. Like any tool, meditation is equally an effective as a destructive weapon as it is a tool of value. It's necessary to correctly guide it, not let it guide you-and especially not letting it's acolytes, Guru and other quacks have control over your mind.

 

There is no 'subtle truth inside'. There is truth and you must engage the mind fully to know it. It's useful to meditate in order to reach that conclusion by learning to hold focus on a single point without distraction. To hold the mind steady and train it for the next step. Otherwise meditation becomes a means to itself-there really are only a very few ways to hold a pencil, it's what you write that's important once you have mastered that skill of pencil holding.

 

I certainly acknowledge other people have viewpoints, they are welcome to argue their case as I will mine.

 

Many of the people I know have different values, mostly this is for practical purposes of trade, shared interests, communication and so on. If I discovered they held violently opposed values to mine, they certainly wouldn't be of interest except as museum pieces to be kept safely locked up. It's obvious this is true or you would end up with cut throats, thieves and liars as friends to learn from and that, is likely hazardous to my health. You can't learn much with your throat cut. I have only one friend and that's my wife. After that my family and then my wife's family because of the blood bond.

 

Clones ? Do you know much about the human race ? :-) I don't 'surround' myself with anyone. I retain total independence and complete dominance of my own sovereignty whilst I control that faculty in health. I ask no one to sacrifice for me, neither do I sacrifice for anyone else. I judge and I am prepared to be judged.

 

Thank you for the reply.

There is a difference between egoistic (self-serving) and ego-centric (unable to recognize that there are other valid viewpoints than one's own). 

 

As you seem to like analogies. Let's say I inherited a concert violin from my father, a soloist with the local symphony, and took lessons and practiced for a few years but was never able to master the instrument. Sure, I could scratch our a tune but nothing like my father and I could never get a chair in the symphony. Is it the fault of the violin? Does that mean that it is not possible that one can make beautiful music with that violin?

 

Meditation didn't suit your proclivities and you did not find anything that was valuable for you there. To generalize that to all other beings is foolhardy and presumptuous. It's like going fishing one day and catching no fish and concluding that fish do not exist, even as others around you are catching them. You are welcome to argue your perspective, and I respect that as you are clearly intelligent, but you're not doing that, you're simply gratuitously negating all other points of view than your own.

[Karl]

Thank you for the reply.

There is a difference between egoistic (self-serving) and ego-centric (unable to recognize that there are other valid viewpoints than one's own). 

 

As you seem to like analogies. Let's say I inherited a concert violin from my father, a soloist with the local symphony, and took lessons and practiced for a few years but was never able to master the instrument. Sure, I could scratch our a tune but nothing like my father and I could never get a chair in the symphony. Is it the fault of the violin? Does that mean that it is not possible that one can make beautiful music with that violin?

 

Meditation didn't suit your proclivities and you did not find anything that was valuable for you there. To generalize that to all other beings is foolhardy and presumptuous. It's like going fishing one day and catching no fish and concluding that fish do not exist, even as others around you are catching them. You are welcome to argue your perspective, and I respect that as you are clearly intelligent, but you're not doing that, you're simply gratuitously negating all other points of view than your own.

 

I suggest you read my reply a little more carefully. Egoistic is the description I gave and that's exactly what I meant. I acknowledge other people have different views, that does not mean I accept them and will refute them as I expect to be challenged myself. Judge and be prepared to judge.

 

I made it clear that my practices led me to this point. At no time did I suggest meditation was not valuable-I practised for over 8+ and still sit to clear my mind.

 

Neither did I say all beings were foolhardy and presumptuous-indeed, many times I have made reference to the fact that ALL have the potential to be genius, to expand consciousness well beyond the current point and to become a hero in their own life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RigdzinTrinley]

that being said, why we don't have a good cup of tea now?

[silent thunder]

Sounds divine... I'll start the water

[blue eyed snake]

well, back on topic

thanks for opening this thread, i find it useful for my own development.

 

At this point I should probably give a bit more context.

 

My friend did not live near me, she was geographically about 10 hours away by car. So we were already drifting, but still maintaining a friendship at a distance. However, I did not perceive problems and we had very open communication -- or so I thought.

 

that seems to underline my previous statement that when one of the friends is changing something in the relationship is changing. was it only the distance? or was it also you changing that made the friendship less close?

 

I tried to reassure my friend that we could still be in regular contact for basically 60% of the process, and that nothing had to change. I just notified everyone that for a couple months I would be out of contact, and that contact would resume after that. Two months isn't that long.

 

right

 

The problem was secrets. She was triggered by secrets, especially spiritual secrets. The reason why I wouldn't tell anyone what I was doing, specifically, was because I didn't want people's input or judgments. It affects the process, especially if you're meditating twice a day and dealing with a lot of inner stuff.

 

My friend was visiting my city a week later and she told me she did not want to hang out, meet up, or anything because she couldn't trust me. She accused me of being in a cult, of being surrounded by evil (she claimed this factually, not superficially). She compared me to people who do kiddie porn, and said, "How can I spend time with you? For all I know you have someone chained up in your home." The accusations were absurd, and ridiculous...

 

Yes it seems clear that her reactions were in no proportion to what was happening, but then I wonder which underlying fears of her triggered that reaction. In my experience when people react angry or extreme to something it is because older underlying issues wake up and painfully raise their heads. What is it in your friend that made her react like this. That's the issue here, and that is not frivolous or ridiculous, that's her pain, whether she is aware of it or not.

 

and I felt like she was trying to control me because I insisted on privacy. What you have to understand is that these accusations were not genuine, but they were manipulative attempts to shame me into telling her what my retreat was about.

 

I wonder, you clearly felt it as manipulation but that does not mean she intended to be manipulative. For the record, i do not tell people about inner experiences either ( well, rarely, sometimes abstracted and only to ones I trust deeply, but I find i'm 'sitting on'  my experiences more and more)

 

The main issue that triggered all this was secrets. No matter how much I tried to reassure her, she insisted I must be doing something evil, because she couldn't handle not knowing. It just didn't make sense because over the course of 5 years there was so much goodness between us, so much learning, cooperation, camaraderie.... and in the end she was trying all manner of methods to get me to give up my privacy and tell her everything. It was a highly manipulative conversation.

 

so her trigger was secrets, and you're repeating here the manipulative side it that you felt,

 

She didn't distract me from the work I wanted to do, but she became an unexpected test within the work.

 

Anyway... I created this thread mainly to see if anyone else has had a similar experience, not to justify my practices. I know the retreat I did was 100% correct and timely. The part of it that remains unresolved for me is that I just found it so incredibly out of left field. The one person I thought who would be the most supportive of me was the one and only person who couldn't handle it.

 

that's interesting and mirrors my experience.

What flies in my face though, is that in the OP you said something like it was an attachment issue of her, ( and you've gotten nice comments on that)  but what you write here, gives me the feeling that you were/are attached to her input/point of view etc.

 

and maybe therefore these interactions are making thoughts in you're head, looping around endlessly, so you now posted it here to see what fellow bums make of it?

[blue eyed snake]

At least cite Shakespeare as the source

 

thanks, that's good for my eddication

[Apech]

At least cite Shakespeare as the source

 

 

I assumed everyone would know.  Pass the biscuits, old chap.

[Marblehead]

There are some of us who have never read the Spear Shaker.

[Apech]

There are some of us who have never read the Spear Shaker.

 

Seriously!  but you are familiar with Homer I assume.

[Karl]

that being said, why we don't have a good cup of tea now?

 

Just drinking one as I read that. Wheel fitted, brakes done, new Pistons, seals, pads and rotors. Bit more bleeding and I'm done.

[doc benway]

Remember that 'serious cultivation' doesn't put food on the table or produce anything of value to anyone. It's purely mental masturbation. 

 

 

This is a very egocentric perspective. There are other perspectives that are equally valid. While cultivation may be valueless masturbation for you, it can be enriching, healing, and transformative for others. 

.....

 

Your posts are consistently egocentric. I can't tell if this is your view of the world or simply your way of communicating online. Either way, I suggest it can be very valuable to acknowledge that others can maintain different, yet equally valid perspectives. We can learn a great deal with this opening of our mind. 

 

 

@steve.

 

My posts are totally egoistic and my 'cultivation' eventually transformed into what it is today.

 

 

There is a difference between egoistic (self-serving) and ego-centric (unable to recognize that there are other valid viewpoints than one's own). 

 

 

I suggest you read my reply a little more carefully. Egoistic is the description I gave and that's exactly what I meant.

I did read carefully. You called your posts egoistic after I referred to them as egocentric. I then pointed out the difference.

 

I acknowledge other people have different views, that does not mean I accept them and will refute them as I expect to be challenged myself.

I appreciate and respect that.

 

Judge and be prepared to judge. I made it clear that my practices led me to this point. At no time did I suggest meditation was not valuable-I practised for over 8+ and still sit to clear my mind.

Please note the first quote above, that is what I was referring to.

 

Neither did I say all beings were foolhardy and presumptuous-indeed, many times I have made reference to the fact that ALL have the potential to be genius, to expand consciousness well beyond the current point and to become a hero in their own life.

I didn't accuse you of saying all beings were foolhardy and presumptuous. I implied that an egocentric mindset is. 

 

Just wanted to clarify where I was coming from and I'll let this go now and have that cup of tea.