When friends turn on you

[Orion]

I wanted to post this topic because I'm curious if anyone else has ever had this experience.

 

Have you ever inexplicably lost people in your life because they couldn't handle your path, or even lashed out at you about it? I'm speaking to the spiritual path, or the path of cultivation. (Call it what you wish.)

 

In 2015 I decided to do a spiritual retreat as many practitioners do, this one lasting months, and requiring gradual social isolation. Everyone in my life was supportive, except my best friend who inexplicably lost it. She accused me of all kinds of weird things, like being evil and in a cult, and said she didn't know who I was anymore... when really, nothing had changed. My choice had somehow triggered her into self-rejection when I never had intended to end the friendship. I couldn't compassionately reason with her, she was locked into some kind of emotionally damaged state. Now we no longer speak.

 

To me, it seems like an issue of attachment. People want you to stay the same for their security, but you can't, and you naturally must drift apart. What's challenging about it is if one or both people don't recognize that's what happening, and it turns to bitter conflict.

 

Anyone ever go through this while on the path? How do you reconcile it?

 

Even though I strive to let go of things, it's hard to see such good friends suddenly disappear for, what I perceive to be, kind of frivolous reasons. There's nothing that can't be worked through if both parties are willing.

[Karl]

I wanted to post this topic because I'm curious if anyone else has ever had this experience.

 

Have you ever inexplicably lost people in your life because they couldn't handle your path, or even lashed out at you about it? I'm speaking to the spiritual path, or the path of cultivation. (Call it what you wish.)

 

In 2015 I decided to do a spiritual retreat as many practitioners do, this one lasting months, and requiring gradual social isolation. Everyone in my life was supportive, except my best friend who inexplicably lost it. She accused me of all kinds of weird things, like being evil and in a cult, and said she didn't know who I was anymore... when really, nothing had changed. My choice had somehow triggered her into self-rejection when I never had intended to end the friendship. I couldn't compassionately reason with her, she was locked into some kind of emotionally damaged state. Now we no longer speak.

 

To me, it seems like an issue of attachment. People want you to stay the same for their security, but you can't, and you naturally must drift apart. What's challenging about it is if one or both people don't recognize that's what happening, and it turns to bitter conflict.

 

Anyone ever go through this while on the path? How do you reconcile it?

 

Even though I strive to let go of things, it's hard to see such good friends suddenly disappear for, what I perceive to be, kind of frivolous reasons. There's nothing that can't be worked through if both parties are willing.

or just maybe she is right ? I don't know your situation, but it's certainly true that practices can lead one towards not so splendid isolation. Have a look at this video, be open minded and see if what you are doing applies.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2016 by Karl

[liminal_luke]

I´m someone who wants friendships to last forever so it´s very sad for me when they don´t. According to a relationship expert I read awhile back (David Schnarch?), couples tend to be more or less at the same level of personal developement; one can´t get too far ahead of the other without a breakup. Maybe that´s true for friendship too?

 

Grow faster than your buddies and you´re sure to leave some behind. Sad but true.

Edited April 17, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Karl]

or just maybe she is right ? I don't know your situation, but it's certainly true that practices can lead one towards not so splendid isolation. Have a look at this video, be open minded and see if what you are doing applies.

 

[doc benway]

I've taken a little heat from friends and family, particularly my brother, due to my devotion to my practices.

Fortunately, the ones who matter most have been supportive.

Ironically my brother was head over heels into an orthodox religion a few years ago and then dropped it completely

I suspect he looks at how it affected him and is concerned for me.

It hasn't gotten in the way of our relationship as I simply accept his criticism, try my best to put his mind at ease, and leave it at that.

[thelerner]

I'll add, many fights are not about what they seem.  One party wants to leave for rational or irrational reasons and picks the most convenient part of your life to blame.  

 

People tend to be more rationalizing then rational.

[Orion]

or just maybe she is right ? I don't know your situation, but it's certainly true that practices can lead one towards not so splendid isolation. Have a look at this video, be open minded and see if what you are doing applies.

 

 

What I was doing wasn't bad for me or anyone. Sorry, but your video is 2 hours long... I'd prefer if you just made your point. No offense.

[qofq]

poof

Edited January 28, 2019 by qofq

[Karl]

What I was doing wasn't bad for me or anyone. Sorry, but your video is 2 hours long... I'd prefer if you just made your point. No offense.

 

I don't know your circumstances Orion. I'm suggesting you be open to the possibility that what you are doing IS harmful.

My wife once asked me if I was intending to disappear one day and head for an Ashram in India. Sometimes you can be a long way up an escalator without realising it-the fall can be pretty spectacular and pretty bruising. Luckily for me I was back pedalling the entire time and never got too high. Just be mindful of what you do. It's quite alright to get out from under a kind of lifestyle and associates that are harmful to your life, but quite another to reject the love and values of those that enhance your life.

 

The video explains how it is possible for practices to isolate you from life and then from those you value and who share your values.

 

There are many who are sucked into cults, or just into individual nihilistic behaviour in pursuit of the sacrifice of mind.

 

I'm not saying that this is what you are doing, but maybe you should heed the concern and examine your motives.

[roger]

I just realized this topic is, "When friends turn ON YOU".

 

The first time I read it I saw, "When friends turn YOU ON". lmao

[Karl]

Karl is the resident contrarian. I believe he's suggesting you might realize you're confused and possibly are in fact in a cult.

 

 

 

I had a similar break with friends once serious cultivation started. Unhealthy patterns must change for real energetic/spiritual development to keep going. At a certain point I started noticing (unhealthy) people actually fleeing from my presence when I would be there and present in the moment. The loss of form (friendship) doesn't have to be bitter, but the fruits of cultivating are Sooo SWEET and just get sweeter and sweeter.

 

I know the pain my friend.

Remember that 'serious cultivation' doesn't put food on the table or produce anything of value to anyone. It's purely mental masturbation. There is nothing wrong with masturbation, it's healthy when practised alongside the rest of life. You don't have to give up friends and family because you masturbate- or join a group of dedicated masturbators. To give up everything for masturbation might seem like a good idea, but it puts your survival at serious risk.

 

The aim of many Ashrams is to encourage what amounts to dependence by discouraging independent thought. If you haven't achieved enlightenment you are told you are not practicing dilligently enough. To every question comes the answer 'practice harder'. With the advent of modern communication there is now no requirement to go to the Ashram, the Ashram comes to you. The danger remains the same.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Karl

[Apech]

Remember that 'serious cultivation' doesn't put food on the table or produce anything of value to anyone. It's purely mental masturbation. There is nothing wrong with masturbation, it's healthy when practised alongside the rest of life. You don't have to give up friends and family because you masturbate- or join a group of dedicated masturbators. To give up everything for masturbation might seem like a good idea, but it puts your survival at serious risk.

 

The aim of many Ashrams is to encourage what amounts to dependence by discouraging independent thought. If you haven't achieved enlightenment you are told you are not practicing dilligently enough. To every question comes the answer 'practice harder'. With the advent of modern communication there is now no requirement to go to the Ashram, the Ashram comes to you. The danger remains the same.

 

 

I think you should put 'in my view' or 'in my opinion' in front of some of those statements.

 

Perhaps the reason you gave up these kinds of practices was because you were mentally masturbating.  

 

Do I have to point out that every form of cultivation, Buddhist, Daoist, whatever, involves some stages of retreat or isolation - simply because it is necessary.  Anyone who has strong practice will have encountered 'friends' who oppose you in this.  It's natural.  William Blake said 'opposition is true friendship' - meaning that those that oppose you help you learn about who you really are and what you are really about.  Sometimes exposing mistakes you are making in what you are doing.  But giving up cultivation simply to please others or to fit into other people's ideas about how to behave or what is important is a big mistake.  

[Karl]

I think you should put 'in my view' or 'in my opinion' in front of some of those statements.

 

Perhaps the reason you gave up these kinds of practices was because you were mentally masturbating.

 

Do I have to point out that every form of cultivation, Buddhist, Daoist, whatever, involves some stages of retreat or isolation - simply because it is necessary. Anyone who has strong practice will have encountered 'friends' who oppose you in this. It's natural. William Blake said 'opposition is true friendship' - meaning that those that oppose you help you learn about who you really are and what you are really about. Sometimes exposing mistakes you are making in what you are doing. But giving up cultivation simply to please others or to fit into other people's ideas about how to behave or what is important is a big mistake.

That its my view should be obvious as I said it. I'm not going to soften it up as if I didn't precisely mean what I said, that I should somehow suggest I meant less than I did, or that I didn't quite have confidence in saying it. I meant it exactly as I said and exactly in the way I said it.

 

I didn't give up the practices. I gave up imagining that the practices were any more than what they are, which is mental masturbation.

What happens after masturbation ? Mind goes blank after samhadi is reached. Relaxed, bliss. Sometimes you need to take a break from a busy mind, just as you need to take a break from the ever present desire to mate.

 

Friends share your values, they don't oppose them, but first you must choose your friends by the values you hold. If you don't have any clear values, you won't have any clear friends. To believe that a friends opposition to your actions is somehow a justification, or affirmation that those actions are sound, seems a very treacherous method of judgement.

 

So, a bit of insight: why do you need to go on a retreat ? Why does any kind of practice mean that it requires a church, Ashram or any other kind of special place ? Where are practices leading if they do not flow from the everyday realities of life. Why attempt to elevate something above reality ? These are questions you should ask, then practices can be put in their right context within reality. I would suggest very strongly that this is the Dao. There is no 'getting to' where one already is. First realise one is already and then everything comes from that.

 

So, then what is the difference between someone who goes blindly through life without being consciously aware and rational and one who practices long and hard for abdication from the mind ? The only difference is that one is ignorant of their ignorance, the other is deliberately trying to achieve ignorance. The result is much the same.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Karl

[Marblehead]

Warning!!!  Generalized statement!

 

If friends turn on you they really weren't your friends to begin with.

[Apech]

"To H

Thy Friendship oft has made my heart to ake
Do be my Enemy for Friendships sake."

[Apech]

Well, I made two attempts to reply to Karl above - but my computer went fuzzy and I lost it all both times.  My computer is my friend.

[rex]

Friends that turn you on could end up being friends with benefits!

 

Back to the original question, from one of those photo memes that does the rounds:

 

"Some people will only love you as long as you fit into their box. Don't be afraid to disappoint."

 

As the Duc de La Rochefoucauld said:

"What men have given the name of friendship to is nothing but an alliance, a reciprocal accommodation of interest, an exchange of good offices; in it is nothing but a system of traffic, in which self-love always proposes to itself some advantage."

 

Some people operate with a set point and don't like others to move beyond it. 

 

Like others I've experienced opposition. I always maintain that my practices and our relationship are not mutually exclusive, that practice actually helps me give more of myself to them.The one's that have stuck around know that I'm there for them and trust remains as I've always backed up words with actions.

 

Others have fallen by the wayside, it can be disappointing but I wish them well and move on. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Karl]

Warning!!!  Generalized statement!

 

If friends turn on you they really weren't your friends to begin with.

 

Or your values and behaviour have changed. Friends might very well be act as bell weather of foolish behaviour, or they might not be the kind of friends we really needed.

 

The question is 'are you being rational now and we're you being rational previously ?'

 

My point is the OP is not simply pushing the friend away, he/she wishes the friend to see the sense in his behaviour. I would suggest that trying to get a friend to justify ones actions is an exercise in total evasion of personal responsibility. No one requires anyone to act as an enabler-that's what alcoholics and drug abusers do.

 

 

 

 

[Karl]

Well, I made two attempts to reply to Karl above - but my computer went fuzzy and I lost it all both times.  My computer is my friend.

 

:-)

[blue eyed snake]

I wanted to post this topic because I'm curious if anyone else has ever had this experience.

 

Have you ever inexplicably lost people in your life because they couldn't handle your path, or even lashed out at you about it? I'm speaking to the spiritual path, or the path of cultivation. (Call it what you wish.)

 

yes

 

In 2015 I decided to do a spiritual retreat as many practitioners do, this one lasting months, and requiring gradual social isolation. Everyone in my life was supportive, except my best friend who inexplicably lost it. She accused me of all kinds of weird things, like being evil and in a cult, and said she didn't know who I was anymore... when really, nothing had changed. My choice had somehow triggered her into self-rejection when I never had intended to end the friendship. I couldn't compassionately reason with her, she was locked into some kind of emotionally damaged state. Now we no longer speak.

 

ah, but really, you have changed, I cannot very well imagine someone going on a retreat for several months and not changing. Maybe you're going where she can't follow.

Communication here has ended too.

 

To me, it seems like an issue of attachment. People want you to stay the same for their security, but you can't, and you naturally must drift apart. What's challenging about it is if one or both people don't recognize that's what happening, and it turns to bitter conflict.

 

Having had that happen i did have some thought on it, initially it hurt but now it seems allright to me.

 

I don't know whether this is about attachment in the sense of her attachment. But it is concerning something that you are attache to, or isn't it?

 

In general seems to me that friends ( and partners) find a comfortzone together. You're used to the way of thinking and acting of people and your responses are tuned to that. When one of the two changes the 'agreed patterns in communication and behavior' are suddenly changed. For you that is no problem, you are the one that is changing, that is part of the path you're walking. And she stayed the same ( for a  time), so nothing happened to your comfortzone.

 

But your friend slowly gets bereft of the known and therefore soothing patterns. And probably this change, in you and in what happens between you is touching some in her that she cannot confront ( yet). So then normally she would act in a way that tends to 'get you back in line'

only, that is not working anymore, because you have changed and want to stay changed.

 

I see i'm not explaining well what is so clear in my head.

 

 

 

Anyone ever go through this while on the path? How do you reconcile it?

 

Even though I strive to let go of things, it's hard to see such good friends suddenly disappear for, what I perceive to be, kind of frivolous reasons. There's nothing that can't be worked through if both parties are willing.

 

In my case it is not frivolous reasons, and i think neither it is in your case.

My friend always was the one in the relationship that seemed to be connected better with intuitive stuff, I've surpassed her greatly, she scared because she can/wont/ dare not tread where my path is leading me. Does not understand it either, thinking a bit like what Karl writes above here. So the relationship was already slowly deteriorating because of my changing. I do not conform to her( unconscious) expectations anymore, and that will not come back either, I'm happy with these changes, they were much needed.

 

Now that I'm ill a totally different issue is used to explain ( for herself) why she quit this friendship.

 

new friends will come, life is a story,

maybe it's time to shed this and go on. On the other hand, it can be something totally different, this is mainly my story, maybe you find some use in it,

 

best BES

[Aetherous]

In 2015 I decided to do a spiritual retreat as many practitioners do, this one lasting months, and requiring gradual social isolation. Everyone in my life was supportive, except my best friend who inexplicably lost it. She accused me of all kinds of weird things, like being evil and in a cult, and said she didn't know who I was anymore... when really, nothing had changed. My choice had somehow triggered her into self-rejection when I never had intended to end the friendship. I couldn't compassionately reason with her, she was locked into some kind of emotionally damaged state. Now we no longer speak.

 

To me, it seems like an issue of attachment. People want you to stay the same for their security, but you can't, and you naturally must drift apart. What's challenging about it is if one or both people don't recognize that's what happening, and it turns to bitter conflict.

 

Friends are not just people that we get along with, who we decide to be close with; who we decide are in the "friends" category because you have been historically. Friendship also requires being there for the friend...not being absent for extended periods. Friendship is one of the best things in life, because it eases all of the burdens that we have.

 

In having social isolation for your path, you put your path above that best friend. Nothing wrong with that, as it was your choice, and spiritual types tend to place their practice above all else. But the friendship was neglected. A friend is someone who is there for you...you weren't there. A friend is someone who eases your burdens...you increased this person's burdens by suddenly becoming more absent after having been close.

 

Not to say it was bad of you to do what you did. It's just important to understand what friendship is and why this person is reacting this way. Friends are there for each other. When one is no longer there, then they are no longer friends...even the best of friends who understand the drifting apart, they might still call each other friends, but they aren't acting as friends when they're distant. It requires presence.

 

I think it's very negative to call it her "attachment" issues, that she reacted to what you did. Of course, that is the truth, it is attachment...in the sense that any emotion indicates attachment (even your own surprise and confusion at her response). But such a perspective is one of cold judgment, rather than understanding and caring for that person who was your friend. Friends don't say the other has attachment issues. The thread title makes it appear like this friend turned on you...while there is some truth to that from your perspective, because a previously supportive person didn't adapt to who you were becoming, it could help to see it from her perspective. You turned on her by becoming absent from her life for months.

 

Friends ease burdens, and are present...by being absent, you no longer eased life's burdens...increasing her suffering. What kind of friend treats the other like that? True friends show up, help you have fun and smooth things out.

 

Like I said...nothing wrong with what you did. It's just good to understand why people react and see things from a perspective other than your own...and to understand more about how friendship works.

[silent thunder]

Conditional love relies on the quality of expectation and fullfillment of obligation, the obligation to create and maintain the conditions that make that person feel love.  They do not realize that love is generated within and have come to believe that love is entirely brought upon them by the external actions and words of those around them.

 

The love of one who loves conditionally is present, only as long as the conditions they require to express that love are present.  When they perceive that what 'they need from you' is no longer available, their love terminates, often into aggression.

 

When you come into contact with a friend, or lover and the oxitocin is flowing and the love feelings are strong, the conditional lover is filled with joy and they love you because of 'how you make them feel'.  However, when conditions change, as they constantly do, and if you find yourself in a position where you cannot do the things for this person that you normally do, if the conditional lover has empathy, they will usually deal with it, though grumblingly for a time.  Without empathy, they will usually perceive that you are willfully denying them their love and in this case, we see affection turns into aggression.

 

Conditional love is present only as long as the conditions the conditional lover is dependent upon are present.  When these conditions change or are removed, this is where you see a loving companion turn instantly into seething violence, justifiably aimed at the one who 'took everything from me'.

 

It's almost entirely self and internally created.  These folks just don't have the capacity to observe love beyond how it makes them feel, how they feel it impacts them and how it makes their life pleasant or painful. 

 

In this respect, it no longer bothers me when folks near me find they have to leave, because 'you're not here for me', or 'you've changed'.  My love is available because I love, not because you have earned it, or deserve it.

 

My Mother used to make up lies about events and people in our life, to get me to reach out to her and care for her.  It often had the desired affect... I would instantly drop what I was doing to rush to her and support, coddle, reify, puff up and indemnify her with lots of external shows of love.  What she was not aware of, was that she need never have lied to get that from me.  She felt in her core that she was unworthy of being loved just the way she was... so she manufactured events to create what she saw as the conditions that were required to get my love. 

 

Some of these lies, were incredibly painful for me and drove a wedge between me and my Father for some years.  As time flowed, I eventually discovered the truth, as is always the case and when I confronted her, I did not lash out in hate.  I hugged her for a long, long time, telling her again and again that there was nothing in the world she needed ever do, to gain my love.  It was there all along.  Nothing is required.  She felt she needed these stories to get the love that was readily flowing the entire time.  She felt unworthy and so, rather than just reach out and say what she needed, she manufactured events that she assumed would bring the desired results.

 

I reconciled with my Father and we spent his remaining years together in the love that was present all along...

Edited April 18, 2016 by silent thunder

[Apech]

Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds.

[liminal_luke]

Wow, so many good responses in this thread -- guess this is a topic people can relate with!

 

Most lasting relationships have seasons of close proximity, and times when, for one reason or another, someones life takes that person physically away from the other.  That´s not a bad thing; it´s an opportunity for growth.  An opportunity to cultivate an openess to loving and being loved that´s not dependent on being constantly propped up with the easy comfort of physical presence.

Edited April 18, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Orion]

At this point I should probably give a bit more context.

 

My friend did not live near me, she was geographically about 10 hours away by car. So we were already drifting, but still maintaining a friendship at a distance. However, I did not perceive problems and we had very open communication -- or so I thought.

 

I tried to reassure my friend that we could still be in regular contact for basically 60% of the process, and that nothing had to change. I just notified everyone that for a couple months I would be out of contact, and that contact would resume after that. Two months isn't that long.

 

The problem was secrets. She was triggered by secrets, especially spiritual secrets. The reason why I wouldn't tell anyone what I was doing, specifically, was because I didn't want people's input or judgments. It affects the process, especially if you're meditating twice a day and dealing with a lot of inner stuff.

 

My friend was visiting my city a week later and she told me she did not want to hang out, meet up, or anything because she couldn't trust me. She accused me of being in a cult, of being surrounded by evil (she claimed this factually, not superficially). She compared me to people who do kiddie porn, and said, "How can I spend time with you? For all I know you have someone chained up in your home." The accusations were absurd, and ridiculous... and I felt like she was trying to control me because I insisted on privacy. What you have to understand is that these accusations were not genuine, but they were manipulative attempts to shame me into telling her what my retreat was about.

 

The main issue that triggered all this was secrets. No matter how much I tried to reassure her, she insisted I must be doing something evil, because she couldn't handle not knowing. It just didn't make sense because over the course of 5 years there was so much goodness between us, so much learning, cooperation, camaraderie.... and in the end she was trying all manner of methods to get me to give up my privacy and tell her everything. It was a highly manipulative conversation.

 

She didn't distract me from the work I wanted to do, but she became an unexpected test within the work.

 

Anyway... I created this thread mainly to see if anyone else has had a similar experience, not to justify my practices. I know the retreat I did was 100% correct and timely. The part of it that remains unresolved for me is that I just found it so incredibly out of left field. The one person I thought who would be the most supportive of me was the one and only person who couldn't handle it.