How does the average American live in The Way?

[Veezel]

How does the average American live in The Way?

 

 

 

When an American eats, sleeps, and works, isn't that already living in The Way? Isn't that nature already?

 

What is wrong with simply eating, sleeping, and working? What's the use of learning ancient knowledge if we are already living in The Way?

[Marblehead]

Excellent questions.  I'm retired so I'm not an average American therefore I will hold my tongue.

[Old River]

The problem is that we don't simply eat, sleep, and work-- especially in a society dedicated to consumerism.  The question is why are you eating this? why are you working? why are you doing what you are doing-- and the answer is hardly simple, but motivated by myriad and oftentimes conflicting desires-- it is running a rat race in order to buy that new car, an even bigger house, the latest x-box, etc.  Bigger, bigger, and bigger.  All these inner motives carve up our whole experience so that we end up with a more fragmented life.  It turns one into a dog forever chasing his own tail. 

 

So it isn't a matter of learning how to do these things the "right" way, but rather unlearning all the ways we do things which are actually resistant to nature-- and which in turn pull you away from your true (unconditioned) nature.  You won't find peace in that rat race-- and so the question is: what kind of life do you want to live?  Chasing after material wealth, status, fame, and power -- or listening to a silence that exists within yourself prior to all that hustle and bustle, and discover a peace than none of those external things can give you?

 

This doesn't mean you have to become an ascetic living off in the hills somewhere, but it does imply a change in values.  I have a modest car and a decent enough job which I am good at -- but I have no interest in getting the Next Big Thing or fighting for a promotion.  Its just a car.  Its just a job.  Some things matter far more than living in consumerist nightmare.

 

Jesus put it this way: "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." 

[thelerner]

If content and living 'In the Way', boom baby, it's all good. 

Yet Americans live hectic lives.  Often searching for.. something to bring happiness and release. 

 

The Tao is more often a subtraction then a gain.  Simplify, be natural, fit into your environment. 

 

I'm reminded of an urban taoist I met.  He had the electricity (& thus the heat) turned off in his apartment.  So it got dark when the sun went down, lit when it rose.  It got cool in the winter but not too bad since there was ambient heat from the rest of the building.  It was an experiment in keeping closer to nature.  Not the direction I'd go, but pretty cool nonetheless.  The guy had some juice- energy & focus. 

 

that's all i got .

Edited April 17, 2016 by thelerner

[Old River]

[Karl]

Chasing after material wealth, status, fame, and power -- or listening to a silence that exists within yourself prior to all that hustle and bustle, and discover a peace than none of those external things can give you?

 

 

That's a false alternative. It is not one option or another. It is not necessary to live a hedonistic lifestyle of subjectivist which amounts to 'doing whatever you FEEL like doing'-regarding happiness as the standard of value; nor the intrincisist that rejects enjoyment as a dereliction of an ethical self-equating happiness to selfishness, ambition and materialism.

 

The intrincisist urges to give up trying to find happiness. The Subjectivist says to go after it by any random means chosen. One says pleasure is anamalistic and unspiritual. The other says grab any opportunity we can.

 

Both approaches lead man astray by denying deep, abiding joy is even possible. It leads to the belief that life is really just a living hell.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Karl

[Marblehead]

Nice to see the alternate perspective.

[Veezel]

That's a false alternative. It is not one option or another. It is not necessary to live a hedonistic lifestyle of subjectivist which amounts to 'doing whatever you FEEL like doing'-regarding happiness as the standard of value; nor the intrincisist that rejects enjoyment as a dereliction of an ethical self-equating happiness to selfishness, ambition and materialism.

 

The intrincisist urges to give up trying to find happiness. The Subjectivist says to go after it by any random means chosen. One says pleasure is anamalistic and unspiritual. The other says grab any opportunity we can.

 

Both approaches lead man astray by denying deep, abiding joy is even possible. It leads to the belief that life is really just a living hell.

 

Can you simplify this please?

 

I can't quite understand what you're trying to say. What is intrincism? What is subjectivism?

[Old River]

Karl, I didn't even have hedonism in mind (that's low hanging fruit anyway)-- I mean the seeking "respectable" job, the "respectable" status, or in the US what they call the "American Dream."  Seeking those things makes life an awful lot more complicated than necessary.  You become less worried about things that in the end don't really matter one way or the other.

Daoism and Epicureanism (the real Greco-Roman philosophy, not the caracature of it) have this much in common-- the more simple your life, the more enjoyable it becomes-- I can certainly say this has been my own experience.  Once upon a time my ex-wife and I lived a very affluent lifestyle and we were good little consumers.  The funny thing was, the more money you make, the more you spend-- so we moved to a bigger place, got a new car, had a more expensive overhead.  We put money back too of course-- we didn't fritter it all away, but it only made our lives more hectic (we were living in Dallas at the time).  In the end, we moved back home and lived a more modest life.  It was a "sacrifice" well worth making because we had more time to enjoy the beauty that nature had to offer, and I had much more time to enjoy reading and writing (please do note the emphasis there...)

There are things far more important than what any society has to sell.  In fact it is an inner peace that can't be bought or sold.  It's not about "sour grapes" nor about "giving up happiness" or enjoyment, but asking: "Will owning a big house crammed with things really make me happy?" Or is this more clutter to keep up with?  This is, after all, one of the main points that the Dao De Jing makes repeatedly.
 

[ChiForce]

To be with the Tao, you are in  Wu Wei.  To live harmoniously at least.  Yet, America is too divided.  Just look at the Trump phenomena!!!  Now, Pentagon with its own foreign policy agendas, is trying to drag the country into wars with China and Russia (military buildup in the South China Sea and Nato expansion in the East of Europe)..even when we don't even know who would get elected as the new president.  

 

America is not in and with the Tao because I don't sense it.  I don't dream about America.  I dream about people I know in America but I don't dream about the spirit of America...if it ever exists.  I dream about Israel a dozen times, the spirit of Israel and Zionism.  In the past, I dream about German history.  Even the former, late foreign minister Guido Westerwelle.  I feel that I am connected to him (dream of him more than a dozen of times).  I have to admit it, I dream of John Kerry once but it wasn't about America.  I have couple of dreams about Obama too but I was never in conversation with him.  Is more like I was witnessing him.     

Edited April 18, 2016 by ChiForce

[idquest]

How does the average American live in The Way?

 

 

 

When an American eats, sleeps, and works, isn't that already living in The Way? Isn't that nature already?

 

What is wrong with simply eating, sleeping, and working? What's the use of learning ancient knowledge if we are already living in The Way?

 

Before people eat, sleep, and work (using your terminology) they have to make decisions as to how specifically they will eat, work, and sleep (what kind of mattress to sleep on for example). The problem arises when the decision they are going to make are influenced by some external ideas. If we use concept of maya, it will be easy to see that vast majority of people chase maya rather than just live as you describe in you OP. If they chase maya, they don't live Dao.

[gendao]

When an American eats, sleeps, and works, isn't that already living in The Way? Isn't that nature already?

 

What is wrong with simply eating, sleeping, and working? What's the use of learning ancient knowledge if we are already living in The Way?

Well, it's like the adage to "follow your heart..."

 

Problem is, most Americans' hearts are closed and blocked.  So, that's like following a broken GPS.

 

Thus, before you can just follow your Nature and go effortlessly with the flow, you must first unobstruct your Nature.  This actually requires a lot of self inner work (although pop Daoism & philosophy typically skip this fundamental step).

 

Make no mistake though, effortlessness (wei wu wei)...is only preceded by a lot of initial effort (吃苦功)!!!

Edited April 18, 2016 by gendao

[dawei]

How does the average American live in The Way?

 

When an American eats, sleeps, and works, isn't that already living in The Way? Isn't that nature already?

 

 

Good question

 

To be with the Tao, you are in  Wu Wei.  To live harmoniously at least.  Yet, America is too divided.  

 

Good initial answer... Until I read 'Trump' 

 

Everyone is following their own 'path' (Dao), for better or worse... wrong or right... good or evil...   

 

 

What is wrong with simply eating, sleeping, and working? What's the use of learning ancient knowledge if we are already living in The Way?

 

Laozi showed that if you are going to signify a dualistic, polarization (some might call it a moralistic choice), then you're stuck on a path with endless opposing concepts.  

 

But nothing wrong with it... it is like a hamster running on a wheel.  Your path is going to be reborn into that.  That is all you can align with Dao.  

 

What you have failed to understand is, yourself. 

 

 

[ChiForce]

Good question

 

 

Good initial answer... Until I read 'Trump' 

 

Everyone is following their own 'path' (Dao), for better or worse... wrong or right... good or evil...   

 

 

 

Laozi showed that if you are going to signify a dualistic, polarization (some might call it a moralistic choice), then you're stuck on a path with endless opposing concepts.  

 

But nothing wrong with it... it is like a hamster running on a wheel.  Your path is going to be reborn into that.  That is all you can align with Dao.  

 

What you have failed to understand is, yourself. 

You may say the Trump phenomena is also a part of the Tao because of the Yang rising...hehehehe...    BUT...I dream of him twice.  In the first dream, I was lecturing him on the finer point of Nazism because I realized that he was a closet Hitler.    In the second dream, I saw him having a setback in his campaign because he has miscalculated.  This analogy was played out in the game of baseball.  I don't feel it.  I don't feel America....the American spirit.  For me, America isn't real.       

[dawei]

You may say the Trump phenomena is also a part of the Tao because of the Yang rising...hehehehe...    BUT...I dream of him twice.  In the first dream, I was lecturing him on the finer point of Nazism because I realized that he was a closet Hitler.    In the second dream, I saw him having a setback in his campaign because he has miscalculated.  This analogy was played out in the game of baseball.  I don't feel it.  I don't feel America....the American spirit.  For me, America isn't real.       

 

I'm writing from America.  Am I real?

 

He is not closer to Nazism but your interpretation of him is closer to Nazism.  

 

Your arguments are more angst on some level. 

 

if America is not real, then please do not book a ticket to fly here

[gendao]

I don't feel America....the American spirit.  For me, America isn't real.       

Lol, of course it's not.  Let's just start with the name...  "America" was named for Amerigo Vespucci, a wealthy Italian voyager who wasn't even the first of his countrymen to voyage to the land.  Obviously, he was preceded by Columbus.  Who was preceded by Vikings, various Asians and others prehistorically who became the "Natives"

 

"America" is just another Jewish rebrand for something already discovered long ago and used by other cultures for millenia...  Kill the present owners, rename it and you now own it.

So, what was "America" called before then?  Answer that question and then we'll start finding its true identity & spirit.

Edited April 18, 2016 by gendao

[ChiForce]

I'm writing from America.  Am I real?

 

He is not closer to Nazism but your interpretation of him is closer to Nazism.  

 

Your arguments are more angst on some level. 

 

if America is not real, then please do not book a ticket to fly here

America can not be real because how else I could have realized the Tao and to realize the Dharma wisdom?  I grew up in America and yet the Dharma teaching is second nature to me.  Therefore, America can not be real.   

[dawei]

America can not be real because how else I could have realized the Tao and to realize the Dharma wisdom?  I grew up in America and yet the Dharma teaching is second nature to me.  Therefore, America can not be real.   

 

 

You realize the Tao or wisdom regardless of nation.  

 

Do all nations and all people feel the air?   Can everyone feel a breeze or rain?

 

ergo, forget the location.  But there are cultural trappings... but that is a mental issue.

 

The reason your argument is not solid is because your story is just about you...   Your path is what what you comment on.

 

But many in america find Dao, find deities, magic, healing, and light.

 

The Tao is beyond nations... dimensions... and all things.  

 

 

[ChiForce]

I suppose if we can locate the spirit of America within our mind, we can trace its original Tao nature.  Spirit, as defined as immortal beings which exist in our consciousness and be ready to transmit knowledge and wisdom to its offsprings.     

[ChiForce]

You realize the Tao or wisdom regardless of nation.  

 

Do all nations and all people feel the air?   Can everyone feel a breeze or rain?

 

ergo, forget the location.  But there are cultural trappings... but that is a mental issue.

 

The reason your argument is not solid is because your story is just about you...   Your path is what what you comment on.

 

But many in america find Dao, find deities, magic, healing, and light.

 

The Tao is beyond nations... dimensions... and all things.  

They found it DESPITE of America, NOT because of the American spirit.  Here, America itself is a hindrance to their realization.  

[dawei]

I suppose if we can locate the spirit of America within our mind, we can trace its original Tao nature.  Spirit, as defined as immortal beings which exist in our consciousness and be ready to transmit knowledge and wisdom to its offsprings.     

 

 

You may need to get beyond what is mental construction vs spirit... and you can't yet understand the step beyond that as Primordial Light.

 

When you can directly connect and talk with deities, then you can talk about them.  But you defining them from a book.

 

So you are searching, which is good...

 

[dawei]

They found it DESPITE of America, NOT because of the American spirit.  Here, America itself is a hindrance to their realization.  

 

I might agree that the american spirit is a hindrance... but if one listens to their path and destiny, they will find where to go.

 

Only those who worry about such things will find a hindrance.

 

[ChiForce]

You may need to get beyond what is mental construction vs spirit... and you can't yet understand the step beyond that as Primordial Light.

 

When you can directly connect and talk with deities, then you can talk about them.  But you defining them from a book.

 

So you are searching, which is good...

No....I dream of historical figures all the time.  What books?...   I even heard Hebrew spoken to me in my dreams.  Deities...like what?  American deities?  I dream of Sambhogakaya beings all the time.  They are generally Abott Buddhist monks.  Couple of Taoist masters.  One even looked like me but he is not.  I mastered the MCO just because I woke up from a dream about couple of Han dynasty warriors.  What books???    What are you talking about?? 

Edited April 18, 2016 by ChiForce

[roger]

How does the average American live in The Way?

 

 

 

When an American eats, sleeps, and works, isn't that already living in The Way? Isn't that nature already?

 

What is wrong with simply eating, sleeping, and working? What's the use of learning ancient knowledge if we are already living in The Way?

 

 

The idea that people are already living in The Way sounds like an absolute- like people are fully living wisely.

 

I think many people are partially living wisely and lovingly, but that also sounds like an absolute. So the reality is that people are living wisely to different degrees.

 

Maybe one goal of spirituality is to live, be, think and behave MORE wisely.

 

What I find as I observe the world is that many people have taken a path similar to your description. They're just living their lives, and perhaps learning and growing, but without learning about esoteric ideas such as discussed on this website.

 

Another thing is that many people follow traditional monotheistic religions, in this country obviously Christianity.

 

I will say though that I honestly feel there's a real danger in such religions. Ideas like eternal hell, the devil, the wrath of God, and "sin" have a very negative impact on many people, and particularly on society.

 

That's just my opinion but I'm sure many here at this website would agree.

Edited April 18, 2016 by roger

[ChiForce]

Lol, of course it's not.  Let's just start with the name...  "America" was named for Amerigo Vespucci, a wealthy Italian voyager who wasn't even the first of his countrymen to voyage to the land.  Obviously, he was preceded by Columbus.  Who was preceded by Vikings, various Asians and others prehistorically who became the "Natives"

 

"America" is just another Jewish rebrand for something already discovered long ago and used by other cultures for millenia...  Kill the present owners, rename it and you now own it.

So, what was "America" called before then?  Answer that question and then we'll start finding its true identity & spirit.

I actually did dream about the native American once.  It was very lucid and powerful.  In this dream, I was concern about my path.  So, I was led into this tent and I encountered several native American elders.  Is one of these dreams you can not forget.  Yet, do I dream about the early colonists in this country?  NO.  And why?  Don't know.  Maybe what we thought as the American spirit does not really exist at all.