How does the average American live in The Way?

[ChiForce]

For the OP, maybe you should question the meaning of "American"...and maybe that's how you start your path????    You did phrase the question in such ways though.    

[Veezel]

For the OP, maybe you should question the meaning of "American"...and maybe that's how you start your path????    You did phrase the question in such ways though.    

 

When I say America, I mean America today. McDonald's, Wal-Mart, and Family Guy included.

[ChiForce]

When I say America, I mean America today. McDonald's, Wal-Mart, and Family Guy included.

And these things are troubling you because....you are eating junk food in McDonald's?  Or Walmart stuff is too cheap (I am not complaining about picking up a 5qt Mobil One fully synthetic engine oil for $22).  Family Guy???   

[Cheshire Cat]

How does the average American live in The Way?

 

 

 

When an American eats, sleeps, and works, isn't that already living in The Way? Isn't that nature already?

 

What is wrong with simply eating, sleeping, and working? What's the use of learning ancient knowledge if we are already living in The Way?

 

Why should the average american live in the way?

 

The way is not just about being natural: the Dao is about living in harmony with nature.

[ralis]

Lol, of course it's not.  Let's just start with the name...  "America" was named for Amerigo Vespucci, a wealthy Italian voyager who wasn't even the first of his countrymen to voyage to the land.  Obviously, he was preceded by Columbus.  Who was preceded by Vikings, various Asians and others prehistorically who became the "Natives"

 

"America" is just another Jewish rebrand for something already discovered long ago and used by other cultures for millenia...  Kill the present owners, rename it and you now own it.

So, what was "America" called before then?  Answer that question and then we'll start finding its true identity & spirit.

 

 

"Jewish rebrand"? Appears to be an anti-Semitic comment.

[Spotless]

How does the average American live in The Way?

 

 

 

When an American eats, sleeps, and works, isn't that already living in The Way? Isn't that nature already?

 

What is wrong with simply eating, sleeping, and working? What's the use of learning ancient knowledge if we are already living in The Way?

------ ------ ------

 

In many ways we live in the eyes of someone looking at an MC Escher type art piece - or more accurately - the type where you have to stare at it for 5 minutes or half an hour before you finally see the other image that for some reason you could not see before.

 

Suddenly it is clear to you and for the most part you will not lose the ability to see it easily now - though you can now switch between the two images.

 

Nearly all of humanity is stuck in the buzz and automated adoption of seeing the "commonly seen" images and impressions.

Even the somewhat uncommon ones are of the same genre - just more jagged or colorful or in some way unique but they still have the patina of the common thread - even those impressed with their rugged individualism.

 

In general and in total the way is living us - but for the most part we are yanking it's steering in all sorts of discordant directions and constantly banging our willfulness all the while mind looping thoughts about that odd picture we have of the world that is the common misconception.

 

We do not live the way - we live in the way of the way and it is constantly afoot on top of us - wearing away the onion skins.

 

The Ancient teachings are also the present time teachings - they are the same - the Way comes in endless colors but it is not old nor is it young. And the teaching of it cannot bring you to see that other image that will suddenly but undeniably at some point become available to you.

 

But what they can do is lead you to believe that there is something else - a treasure - and in the teachings you will find endless clarity always intermixed within it - a clarity that just twinkles at first but that saturates you at times - and it can help you to nudge the processes that are taking place as you are steered through your lives.

 

In each breath of teaching in the Way you have inhaled closer to Unity. Your blade is tempered by the inhalation of the teachings, by the efforts you have been driven to - in the enthusiasm and in the redundant seemingly endless bumps that you are slammed into and bounced over.

 

And so the timeless you is witness to these movements that do not move and you are able to endure the feeling of time and space and in living more aligned with those vibrations of that image that will suddenly pop into full view.

 

When it does pop you will be wearing it - and while most of it will be vary familiar it will also be all Anew - it will be astonishingly dissimilar and resoundingly clear - you will know with great clarity all that you mistakenly thought you understood in all the quoting and touting of the ancient present teaching of the Way that you so misunderstood until now.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Spotless

[Karl]

Karl, I didn't even have hedonism in mind (that's low hanging fruit anyway)-- I mean the seeking "respectable" job, the "respectable" status, or in the US what they call the "American Dream."  Seeking those things makes life an awful lot more complicated than necessary.  You become less worried about things that in the end don't really matter one way or the other.

Daoism and Epicureanism (the real Greco-Roman philosophy, not the caracature of it) have this much in common-- the more simple your life, the more enjoyable it becomes-- I can certainly say this has been my own experience.  Once upon a time my ex-wife and I lived a very affluent lifestyle and we were good little consumers.  The funny thing was, the more money you make, the more you spend-- so we moved to a bigger place, got a new car, had a more expensive overhead.  We put money back too of course-- we didn't fritter it all away, but it only made our lives more hectic (we were living in Dallas at the time).  In the end, we moved back home and lived a more modest life.  It was a "sacrifice" well worth making because we had more time to enjoy the beauty that nature had to offer, and I had much more time to enjoy reading and writing (please do note the emphasis there...)

There are things far more important than what any society has to sell.  In fact it is an inner peace that can't be bought or sold.  It's not about "sour grapes" nor about "giving up happiness" or enjoyment, but asking: "Will owning a big house crammed with things really make me happy?" Or is this more clutter to keep up with?  This is, after all, one of the main points that the Dao De Jing makes repeatedly.

 

 

Exactly what I meant by the erroneous pursuit of pleasure/enjoyment/happiness as the standard of value.

 

That isn't to say that this is what you have done, but It is what you believe you have done-simply by exchanging one kind of life for another. In other words you remain hedonistic and seek pleasure as the standard by the means of nature/reading/simple living. Why would it matter if you were living the grand city life, or that of a peasant ?

 

So, now check to see if it was really the exchange of material lifestyles that resulted in happiness, or was it that you began seeking rational values. If you write because you wish to produce and therefore get pleasure as a result of that productivity then that works. However, it isn't the reduction in material goods that has brought you pleasure, you could equally have done that whilst flying in your own private jet and having a penthouse suite in New York.

 

I don't know your circumstances, but it would seem to me that you perhaps gave up the pursuit of pleasure as the standard of value and discovered rational values. That being the case, you didn't actually 'sacrifice' anything at all did you ? So, to send others to 'sacrifice' in the name of pleasure as the standard of value would be the wrong approach.

 

 

 

 

[Karl]

Can you simplify this please?

 

I can't quite understand what you're trying to say. What is intrincism? What is subjectivism?

 

What I'm saying is that pursuing or rejecting happiness as the STANDARD of value is erroneous.

 

The intrincisist (the religious monk) rejects happiness as he sees that this to be the problem.

The subjectivist is concerned with the emotional fulfilment of pleasure seeking and does whatever he wants to get it.

 

Pleasure is a consequence of rational value judgement, it cannot succesfully be the main driver either by rejecting it, or doing whatever one wants to get it.

 

Therefore, both intrincisist and subjectivist are drinking at the same bar. Both are using pleasure/happiness/joy/bliss as the standard-what they 'feel' is right. One looks for any sign that pleasure is being had and sees to it that it is removed. The other seeks it for the sake of itself as the primary goal.

 

Pleasure is the 'consequence' of right action, not the goal.

[Nikolai1]

How does the average American live in The Way?

 

 

 

When an American eats, sleeps, and works, isn't that already living in The Way? Isn't that nature already?

 

What is wrong with simply eating, sleeping, and working? What's the use of learning ancient knowledge if we are already living in The Way?

I think this question becomes baffling when we imagine that the Tao is some sort of cosmic puppet-master.  Then it seems that everyone and everything is already following the True Way and there can be no such thing as practice or realisation.  In fact, it can alos make us think that the more unconscious we are, the more purely the Tao will be able to act through us.  Therefore the Average American, with all the myriad desires can seem closer to the Way by virtue of their unconsciousness.

 

The Tao however is not separate from us.  It awakens and becomes elegant and efficient through us.  But when we are unconscious, then so is the Tao, and a kind of chaos reigns.  This is the human society that appals so many spirituallt sensitive people.

 

Normal everday pleasures are an intimation of the cosmic bliss we eventually feel more and more.  To begin with, this bliss is only felt in conjunction with some kind of outer symbol: the hot bubble bath, the good wine, the flashy car.  Through these symbols we are able to feel the bliss of the Tao through a kind of ritual.  Most Average Americans, Germans, Chinese Outer Mongolians gain their bliss in this way.

 

As we grow in consciousness we no longer need these external symblic triggers to bliss.  We discover that bliss is always there, in the background: a kind of subtly pulsing peace.  Furthermore, we discover (and this is a hard discovery) that once we notice this constant bliss the old symbolic methods stop working so well.  Even our favourite place in the forest starts to fail us.  We must start to seek the bliss in the absence of the symbols if we are to enjoy it in its fullest.  This is the start of practice, and leads to a true authentic asceticism.

 

The attempt at asceticism while we are still unconscious of the constant bliss, i.e by emulation of the behaviour of the awakened always leads in catastrophe.  A man must have his bliss!  Nevertheless this unskilful practice forms to basis of, for example, the expectation that a cathlic priest must be celibate.  If we are spirituallly nourished by inner bliss, celibacy will come naturally.

 

So to answer this question, the Average American is already following the Tao and enacting the Tao through their behaviour.  But there is a lot further for them to go!

[Marblehead]

Question:

 

 

Answer:

They don't.

You almost inspired me to say something but I will continue to hold my tongue.

[blue eyed snake]

You almost inspired me to say something but I will continue to hold my tongue.

 

that's pretty unique, we'll get you a medal for that

[Old River]

Why would it matter if you were living the grand city life, or that of a peasant ?

 

...However, it isn't the reduction in material goods that has brought you pleasure, you could equally have done that whilst flying in your own private jet and having a penthouse suite in New York. 

 

It does matter insofar as more time is devoted to upkeep.  More things to look after, more bills to pay, more things to weigh on the mind.  That's time and energy taken away from things that matter far more to myself, so yes, it is a choice.  The reduction of material goods have allowed me to tap into my potential in a way I could not if I were busy maintaining a large house, etc.  I know what I'd rather devote my one life to-- call that gradually evolving decision what you will.  My life is certainly far better for it.

 

If others wish to sacrifice their time and energy aspiring to amassing external goods, conforming to what they've been tacitly or explicitly told by society is 'success,' they are free to do so-- in fact, most people do.  I don't see that changing either.  But it seems to me it has brought more trouble than it's worth.  The quality of one's life is not dependent upon quantifiable external goods, no matter what a consumerist society says-- rather it depends upon something that cannot be bought or sold: one's own character.  The best things in life don't have a price tag.

[Karl]

It does matter insofar as more time is devoted to upkeep.  More things to look after, more bills to pay, more things to weigh on the mind.  That's time and energy taken away from things that matter far more to myself, so yes, it is a choice.  The reduction of material goods have allowed me to tap into my potential in a way I could not if I were busy maintaining a large house, etc.  I know what I'd rather devote my one life to-- call that gradually evolving decision what you will.  My life is certainly far better for it.

 

If others wish to sacrifice their time and energy aspiring to amassing external goods, conforming to what they've been tacitly or explicitly told by society is 'success,' they are free to do so-- in fact, most people do.  I don't see that changing either.  But it seems to me it has brought more trouble than it's worth.  The quality of one's life is not dependent upon quantifiable external goods, no matter what a consumerist society says-- rather it depends upon something that cannot be bought or sold: one's own character.  The best things in life don't have a price tag.

 

You could do both. Unless you simply give up, then you will always have a requirement for a home, food, warmth. It's only a matter of degree is it not ? You have reduced your requirements because it was difficult to maintain them, but you are still maintaining this reduced lifestyle. Someone could say that you were being far too materialistic and should aspire to live naked in a cave and eat moss.

 

I completely agree with you that people are seeking pleasure as a standard (hedonism), instead of being rewarded with pleasure as a result of rational selfishness. If your rational self interest results in being able to afford a comfortable, pleasurable lifestyle then that isn't detrimental. It is only when you seek pleasure as the standard in and of itself that things go wrong.

[Old River]

I have mentioned before (here, and in another thread I believe) that I have decent job and a modest car, etc. -- and by comparison, I still think I live an affluent lifestyle -- while others would think my lifestyle spartan (hardly!).  I think people, if they want to live with less clutter in their lives, have to do it gradually and find the right balance at that time of one's life.  It took me years to get to where I am, and I may go further yet one day.  This was a gradual decision, not a sudden purge.  Finding the right balance at the right time in life is the key.  

 

Kafka's aphorism puts it best: 'Two tasks of the beginning of life: to keep reducing your circle, and to keep making sure you're not hiding somewhere outside it.'

[Karl]

...achieving life is not the equivalent of avoiding death. Joy is not the absence of pain, intelligence is not the absence of stupidity, light is not the absence of darkness, an entity is not the absence of a nonentity. Building is not done by abstaining from demolition; centuries of sitting and waiting in such abstinence will not raise one single girder for you to abstain from demolishing....existence is not a negation of negatives. Evil, not value, is an absence and a negation....

 

To gain values that do not contradict reality and therefore do not contradict ones morals-be that a meal when hungry, an invitation to a party, a diamond necklace or a promotion are then predicated on the root of all value judgement-ones own life and therefore ones survival. That these goal directed actions give pleasure is to understand that one has been succesful in that primary action. To feel pain is to know that one has failed. Yet one does not make pleasure the standard, but the gaining of the value a standard, by which satisfaction of attainment is the measure of that success.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Karl

[Nikolai1]

 It is only when you seek pleasure as the standard in and of itself that things go wrong.

I would say that seeking pleasure is natural and inevitable.  The problem comes when we seek pleasure in the things that shall cease and pass away, which are also the same kinds of pleasures that can't be shared.  Our pleasure seeking then becomes competitive, and our gain is another's loss.

 

There is a higher form of pleasure to seek, and we must identify what this is within ourselves.  To cultivate this pleasure is the highest benevolence, because the more we find it the more it becomes a force in life.  It magnifies through us, and radiates out, and spreads to others.

[blue eyed snake]

seems to me that any seeking we do gets in the way of the Way.

It's all there really, we just don't see it

[Nikolai1]

seems to me that any seeking we do gets in the way of the Way.

It's all there really, we just don't see it

When it comes to the inner peace, it feels like we deliberately tune into it, and so the term 'seeking' is understandable and relevant.  Other times, it feels like the peace imposes itself upon us and we are passive recipients of it.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

(S)eems to me that any seeking we do gets in the way of the Way.

It's all there really, we just don't see it

 

Yes.

 

But have you noticed?

 

Dogs chasing their own tails spin in a circular motion.

 

...

Edited April 19, 2016 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Karl]

I would say that seeking pleasure is natural and inevitable.  The problem comes when we seek pleasure in the things that shall cease and pass away, which are also the same kinds of pleasures that can't be shared.  Our pleasure seeking then becomes competitive, and our gain is another's loss.

 

There is a higher form of pleasure to seek, and we must identify what this is within ourselves.  To cultivate this pleasure is the highest benevolence, because the more we find it the more it becomes a force in life.  It magnifies through us, and radiates out, and spreads to others.

 

Seeking pleasure as the standard means being a slave to feelings as the primary method of survival and knowledge. So, that is back to front. Pleasure can be momentary or long term, but either way it is only the result of gaining or holding values. It is equally possible that the loss of a value-a partner-might negate the primary value of ones own life. Pleasure can never be shared, it is ones own. If we seek values rather than pleasure as the standard then there is no gain, or loss. Pleasure is a feeling that comes as a by product it is not a tangible kind of good any more than suffering is a tangible kind of bad.

[blue eyed snake]

When it comes to the inner peace, it feels like we deliberately tune into it, and so the term 'seeking' is understandable and relevant.  Other times, it feels like the peace imposes itself upon us and we are passive recipients of it.

 

please do not use the plural here, you're not talking for me.

I did not seek anything and yet found an abundance, when i then started seeking for more the well dried up.

so now I'm back at nonseeking 

[blue eyed snake]

...

 

 

 

Yes.

 

But have you noticed?

 

Dogs chasing their own tails spin in a circular motion.

 

...

 

ROTFL 

 

spinning around endlessly makes high       

[Nikolai1]

Pleasure is a feeling that comes as a by product it is not a tangible kind of good any more than suffering is a tangible kind of bad.

You're kind of right! Pleasure is neither tangible nor intangible but a basic property of reality.  It is reality, felt.

 

Now the problem comes when we symbolise this fundamental pleasure in the form of, say, a sports car and then go seeking the symbol.  If someone scrapes a key along our sports car we imagine that our pleasure has been spoiled.  This is the illusion.  Pleasure cannot be found nor lost, ultimately.

[blue eyed snake]

Seeking pleasure as the standard means being a slave to feelings as the primary method of survival and knowledge. So, that is back to front. Pleasure can be momentary or long term, but either way it is only the result of gaining or holding values. It is equally possible that the loss of a value-a partner-might negate the primary value of ones own life. Pleasure can never be shared, it is ones own. If we seek values rather than pleasure as the standard then there is no gain, or loss. Pleasure is a feeling that comes as a by product it is not a tangible kind of good any more than suffering is a tangible kind of bad.

 

ah, but the shared pleasure of eating a meal, or looking at something beautiful at least doubles the pleasure of the participants.

It's not only shared pleasure, but makes it grow.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

spinning around endlessly makes high       

 

You've sure got a point.

 

Does Karl like Kansas, I wonder?

 

I know he's a prog fan like me, good old Karl.

 

 

Once I rose above the noise and confusion
Just to get a glimpse beyond this illusion
I was soaring ever higher, but I flew too high.

 

But the funny thing about spinning, is that I never get dizzy no matter how fast I spin.

 

And I can walk a straight line afterwards.

 

My balance is good, thank heavens.

 

But i'm still a madman.

 

Now ignore me and get back on topic.

 

...