Is it okay to set goals?

[Veezel]

I understand that the process/journey is more important than the destination. However, I was wondering if it's okay to set goals.

 

It seems to me that setting goals is a symptom of being too attached to the outcome. However, it's also a practical way to get things done.

 

Your thoughts?

[thelerner]

I think so.  Long term, short term. 

The Dao is also a path.  In some ways goals are pointers along the way.  Skills to gain because the Tao calls for skillful means.  From the Buddhist playbook, desires should be downgraded to preferences, where you may seek an outcome, but there are often gifts in the alternative.

[RigdzinTrinley]

From the teachings I have received in the buddhist tantric tradition and from my little tiny life experience I would say that to set goals is not just neccessary but we can't help it, it is part of having an oridnary mind that works with reality in a dualistic way and also works with the concept of time and place

 

now relatively speaking all of this can't be denied and it would be fatal and even dangerous to do so - I think ones life can really go down hill, I met some people in india who answered my questions "where do you stay here in this town" with "I stay in the eternal now" which is all sorts of cute if ou ask me - I usually move on to people who have something more to say then that - not because there is no truth in it but because mostly it is just BS

 

see for someone who is really dedicated to a yogic lifestyle, I mean whose life is nothing but practicing and studying the scriptures - then Okay temporary goals for this life don't matter, if they would then something is a bit wrong there. Now these beings are incredibly rare - so far I met only a couple of tibetan and indian yogis who are still in their old age living in mountain retreat - incredible human beings, incredible

 

that being said - if I feel I should adobt such a view of life and belief somehow that I am like jetsun Milarepa - then within couple of months Iam either in the lemon factory eating haldol for breakfast lunch and dinner, or in some other not so great place

 

(because at a certain time I did think I can be like jetsun mila and yes that was the overall direction I was heading - until one of my lamas met me and just said "you look fried - what happened" I told her I was doing retreat up in the caves of tso pema, and she asked me who told me tto do that - I said no one I just did it on my own, I got a biiiig scolding after that)

 

this kind of life and approach to life is not for everybody - and for some it might be important to explore this for some months in retreat - but a life without taking relative time and space into account ever is just for a few humans as far as I can tell, now I met hundreds of westerners who think of themselves as yogis and yoginis destined for this life (me included, I am getting over it ) but I have to say - mere words no substance

 

Love and respect to you and hope my POV added to your understanding a little

Edited April 19, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[Karl]

I understand that the process/journey is more important than the destination. However, I was wondering if it's okay to set goals.

 

It seems to me that setting goals is a symptom of being too attached to the outcome. However, it's also a practical way to get things done.

 

Your thoughts?

 

I'm a maverick here, but FWIW goal setting is survival. Don't set goals and perish. Be that getting up, finding something to eat, going to work, or the plethora of micro short and greater macro long term goals. It woukd be hard to live without goal setting as your question should have made clear to you, because by asking, wether the answer comes 'yes' or 'no' it is impossible to escape the conclusion that both those answers are actually goal setting.

[Michael Sternbach]

Set a goal, then skilfully navigate to let the internal and external currents of your life take you there. Such is wu wei.

[Stosh]

Everything has its flip side,  that's true for the goals we set and everything else. .. except for that which is tautologically true. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by Stosh

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

Really, there is a profound question here.

 

Goals set by your contingent identity and pursued vigorously will concretise the "ego".

 

You create a shell around yourself which deadens you, reduces your sensitivity.

 

It is also connected to the notion of surrender, giving up and trusting.

 

And also to death and rebirth during physical incarnation.

 

But the event itself is most mysterious.

 

The action of surrender is uncaused.

 

It is the single uncaused action.

 

When one surrenders one becomes the unoriginated.

 

But I am reminded to remain unknowing.

 

...

Edited April 19, 2016 by Captain Mar-Vell

[RigdzinTrinley]

I am just going to butcher shantidevas incredible verse from the bodhicharyavatara, sorry to both the master and the masters enlightened words...

 

I can't recall the exact way how it is translated, neither do I find it online - nor did I bring my text with me on this journey, anyway I remember the meaning of the verse and it is something like that:

 

The bodhisattva is allowed one ignorance:

that there is a result of the path

 

now with this one I can sit for several lifetimes and be still awstruck by the depth of meaning you can convey with so little words...

 

my mind blown and my heart opened - now I can go eat rice and dhal

Edited April 19, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[qofq]

With serious dedicated practice eventually when your search and discover the essence of where the impetus for whichever goals is coming from, then you'll start to intuitively know their relative ability to nourish or conversely dramage your essence and equanimity.

 

This is part of "knowing yourself" , "knowing for yourself".

 

 

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

RigdzinTrinley, what a dear fellow you are.

 

The bodhisattva is allowed one ignorance: that there is a result of the path(.)

 

Perhaps if they retain that ignorance they are no boddhisatva.

 

Enlightenment is not the result of anything, is it?

 

...

Edited April 19, 2016 by Captain Mar-Vell

[RigdzinTrinley]

short answer: different masters of different lineages explain it differently

 

what I think about it?

 

many things, I give you a favourite example that my main teacher uses:

 

your true nature is like the heart of the sun, how could there be any darkness?

 

now not knowing this dharmata nature of your mind - gives rise to conceptual thought patterns that are like clouds in the sky, these clouds are in no way part of the sun nor could they ever intermingle with the heart of the sun or obscure it

 

yet they seem to obscure the sun for the moment

 

so what we need is some wind - when the wind of the two accumulations of conceptual merit and non-conceptual wisdom blows the clouds scatter and there is a chance to recognize the essence of the sun as it is - free of darkness from the beginningless beginning and that beginningless beginning is always already the case

 

now certain masters don't like that kind of explanation, that enlightenement has a cause or has no cause both or neither, certain masters also prefer to not pay any attention to either clouds nor wind to get rid of the clouds, they prefer pointing to the essence of the sun and thats it

 

for me personally this example can explain all of tibetan buddhist dharma - and one could speak endlessly about the implications of it from many angles... so I like it and use it to move me onwards inwards outwards

 

your a nice fellow too brother

Edited April 19, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[Stosh]

I give you a favourite example that my main teacher uses:

 

your true nature is like the heart of the sun, how could there be any darkness?

 

 

Thats really rather good, Did you literally  ask him how he means it? if its his own , and if he has more like it.  ( I didnt see it as a googled quote) 

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I'd say just be pragmatic. It's very easy to misuse advanced perspectives like 'no path', 'no goal', 'Buddha nature', etc.

 

But... The average person has no path or goals for this stuff, and the average person isn't awakened. If you want awakening, you have to do stuff. Simple truth!

 

Practice gets you to the precipice, at which point true surrender happens and you see the truth of those advanced perspectives I mentioned. But true surrender won't happen unless you do practice to climb to that precipice.

 

[blue eyed snake]

I understand that the process/journey is more important than the destination. However, I was wondering if it's okay to set goals.

 

It seems to me that setting goals is a symptom of being too attached to the outcome. However, it's also a practical way to get things done.

 

Your thoughts?

 

well, I don't regard myself as a daoist but I try to set reasonable goals for myself and not become attached to the outcome. But i do need goals to go forward.

 

Not to become attached to the outcome btw, is also a goal...

 

circles.

[blue eyed snake]

...

 

Really, there is a profound question here.

 

Goals set by your contingent identity and pursued vigorously will concretise the "ego".

 

You create a shell around yourself which deadens you, reduces your sensitivity.

 

It is also connected to the notion of surrender, giving up and trusting.

 

And also to death and rebirth during physical incarnation.

 

But the event itself is most mysterious.

 

The action of surrender is uncaused.

 

It is the single uncaused action.

 

When one surrenders one becomes the unoriginated.

 

But I am reminded to remain unknowing.

 

...

 

now that line touched my heart!

[Karl]

well, I don't regard myself as a daoist but I try to set reasonable goals for myself and not become attached to the outcome. But i do need goals to go forward.

 

Not to become attached to the outcome btw, is also a goal...

 

circles.

 

If you mean during meditation ? then there is no goal except to do the practice and only that. Any goal conjured up is entirely imaginary. So, you get attached to an imaginary outcome ? . :-)

[Songtsan]

No matter what, cultivation will occur, even if no goals are held in the mindspace. Goals could be seen as ego-achievements. It seems only an ego could have goals. But having the goal of being goal-less would be paradoxical or something like that. Might as well enjoy the experience of egotism and see a story unfold. Or not.

[RigdzinTrinley]

Thats really rather good, Did you literally  ask him how he means it? if its his own , and if he has more like it.  ( I didnt see it as a googled quote) 

 

dear sir stosh sir,

 

it is based on a teaching that you can find in Khenpo Ngawang Palsangs "A guide to thw words of my perfect teacher" (the original words of my perfect teacher was written by dza patrul rinpoche)

 

there it is written simply sun but-

he uses sometimes the more poetic nyima'i nyingpo (essence or heart of the sun) from Longchenpas Chod byings dzod precious treasury of the dharmadatu)

 

I think it is a very old quote from the buddhist lineage - it also can be found in a similar way in lord maitreyas Uttaratantra-shastra

 

now some scholars dont like this way of explaining reality at all but thats another discussion

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

It really depends what you want to do.

If you are starting from a base of relative ease, contentment, and privilege, and don't want or need to attain anything else in life, then your goals may just be to do enough to maintain what you already have.

If you want to become rich and powerful, you will need very well set out goals, which become more stringent relative to your social position and how much you need to climb in order to achieve your end goal.

If you want to cultivate your spirit, you have to have this in mind so that you will be inspired to practice.

The best situation is that you don't set a goal in the way that you might with a workout, but rather just enjoy practicing every day and keep going because you love it. 

I hit the gym a few times every week and because my weight sets are decided by the coach there, I just focus on getting the work done.  My main goal is to survive each set and do my best not to fail.  If I fail some lifts and eat shit, I don't care that much, but I want to try to the best of my ability to make the lift the next time.

Set your goals according to what is realistic, what you want to do, and with the understanding of how you will get to where you want to be.

Believe me, most people who claim that having goals is a very attached endeavour are usually people who are very attached to a specific point of view themselves, and typically are not very dynamic in regard to learning new things and fully investigating this wonderful life we have here on earth 

[liminal_luke]

Should you set goals --absolutely!  Of course, rarely do we set a goal and then steadily work toward it without any hiccups along the way, or at least that never happens to me.  So, for me, the big question isn´t whether to set goals or not, but rather what to do when they aren´t getting met as initially envisioned.  Push through like a robot ignoring all resistance?  Give up?  Modify and move on?

 

This is where things get tricky, and there´s no easy answer.  Sometimes I set goals that don´t make sense for me, but I don´t know this until I start.  Sometimes the goal is right-on but the method I pick to get me there is flawed.  Sometimes, like now, I just need to tell myself that I won´t die if I don´t eat that piece of cake.  

[Old River]

I understand that the process/journey is more important than the destination. However, I was wondering if it's okay to set goals.

 

It seems to me that setting goals is a symptom of being too attached to the outcome. However, it's also a practical way to get things done.

 

Your thoughts?

 

It's a good question to ask.  Practically speaking, we always have SOME kind of goals-- no matter how trivial or how ambitious. 

 

I think what the problem really is here is that "goals" and "attachment to the outcome" are thought of as if they were synonymous.  They usually are synonymous, of course-- because its a habit we grow into at an early stage in life.  But it is possible to have goals without being attached to them. 

 

One way you know it is an "attachment" in this sense is this: if you get upset, angry, or sad about when a goal isn't met.  We associate these negative feelings with failure instead of accepting it for what is simply is: a goal not being met.  It is a fact, not a judgment.  The negative feelings are something "extra" added to the failure that isn't necessary.  It just clouds up our minds even more.

 

Unlearn those habits over time and you'll discover you can set goals -- but without those attachments.  Sitting meditation is one helpful way to train yourself to observe your mind.  There are a variety of ways, but they all take time-- it certainly doesn't happen overnight. 

 

Here's Zhuangzi (in Thomas Merton's rendering) which illustrates the distinction between goal and attachment in the context of Daoism:

 

 

When an archer is shooting for nothing

He has all his skill.

If he shoots for a brass buckle

He is already nervous.

If he shoots for a prize of gold

He goes blind

Or sees two targets –

He is out of his mind.

 

His skill has not changed,

But the prize

Divides him. He cares,

He thinks more of winning

Than of shooting –

And the need to win

Drains him of power.

 

[emphasis mine]

[roger]

I understand that the process/journey is more important than the destination. However, I was wondering if it's okay to set goals.

 

It seems to me that setting goals is a symptom of being too attached to the outcome. However, it's also a practical way to get things done.

 

Your thoughts?

 

What I think is to just make sure the goal that is set is born of love, inspiration, higher consciousness or however you want to put it.

 

The problem with many people's goals is that they arise out of fear and confusion.

 

The way you can discern whether the goal is born of love and higher consciousness is how it makes you FEEL. Does it give you true joy, does it comfort you and make you feel great, does it give you a sense of freedom?

 

A goal born of lower consciousness can make one feel imprisoned and unhappy.

 

The thing is it seems obvious that our goals should give us joy, but not everyone approaches it like that.

 

I remember fifteen years or so ago, I decided I would practice drums several hours every day for years, and it felt like a real burden, it didn't give me joy.

 

I didn't end up doing that (I did it for a few weeks), but it's just an example of having a goal that does NOT give you joy and that feels like a burden.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Some quotes about goals I like from Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, 'A Clear Goal':

 

 

Many of the possible reasons for why people can get so into “Buddhism” in every way except clear, well-defined, focused and precise practice are directly related to a lack of a clear goal. If you have no clear idea of what you want or why you are doing something, then the results are likely to be just as murky, vague, and fragmented. Why are you doing all of this? This is a very important question. 

 

People may wish to go on a retreat and have the whole thing be relaxing and blissful. This can actually be attained temporarily if they then gain some mastery of concentration practices, though their clarity will almost certainly shatter the instant they leave the retreat, as concentration practices produce no long-term stability on their own. However, they may think that they wish to get enlightened by doing insight practices. Insight practices involve hard work and clear, non-anesthetized examination of suffering, among other things. Thus, these two goals of maintaining bliss and developing insight simultaneously are in direct conflict, and the student’s practice will surely be conflicted. This is just one of many possible examples. 

 

Having a clear goal is absolutely fundamental to the practice in more ways than may be initially obvious. In fact, if you understood your actual reality right now clearly enough to get to the root of why you were doing all of this and where all this motion of mind comes from, you would be highly realized. You would penetrate to the heart of compassion and suffering, of ignorance and emptiness, and be finally free. 

...

Goals tend to involve a heavy future component. The trick is to add a component that relates to the Here and Now as well.

 

For instance, one could wish to become enlightened. This is a purely future-oriented goal. One could also wish to understand the true nature of the sensations that make up one’s world so clearly that one becomes enlightened. This adds a present component and thus makes the whole thing much more reasonable and workable. One could simply wish to deeply understand the true nature of the sensations that make up one’s world as they arise in that practice session or during that day. This is a very immediate and present-oriented goal, and a very fine one indeed. It is also method-oriented rather than result-oriented. This is the mark of a good goal.

...

It should be noted that thoughts of the past and future occur now. These sensations are worthy of investigation. “Future mind” is only a problem if the sensations that make it up are not understood as they are. A fun practice to try is consciously thinking thoughts whose content is past- or future-oriented and noticing that they occur now. There is something particularly profound about this that might be missed on first inspection.

...

 

[Bindi]

I'd say just be pragmatic. It's very easy to misuse advanced perspectives like 'no path', 'no goal', 'Buddha nature', etc. But... The average person has no path or goals for this stuff, and the average person isn't awakened. If you want awakening, you have to do stuff. Simple truth! Practice gets you to the precipice, at which point true surrender happens and you see the truth of those advanced perspectives I mentioned. But true surrender won't happen unless you do practice to climb to that precipice.

 

Yes, the right goals and the right hard work, and the right time to surrender should then be clear as day (probably many decades from when the first goal was set).  

Edited April 20, 2016 by Bindi

[Marblehead]

... clear as day ...

Brought to my mind from Chuang Tzu:

 

One day a Sage will appear and explain it all.  But that day may not be for another ten thousand years.