Is it okay to set goals?

[Bindi]

I wanted to say the right time to surrender might not be for many decades if at all in this lifetime, but it sounded a bit pessimistic. I reckon Chuang Tzu can lead the way though, the right time to surrender might not be for ten thousand years 

[Stosh]

One day a Sage will appear and explain it all.  But that day may not be for another ten thousand years.

Counterquote

The Kingdom of God is at hand.

[Marblehead]

Counterquote

The Kingdom of God is at hand.

Hehehe.  They have been saying that for over 2,000 years.

[Stosh]

Hehehe.  They have been saying that for over 2,000 years.

Well, they cant all be wrong , can they?

[Marblehead]

Well, they cant all be wrong , can they?

Of course they can.

[doc benway]

So much good stuff in this thread!

 

I think goals are natural and necessary in our lives. The masters often speak from the perspective of the natural state, absolute truth, the Dao. They give us a glimpse, a taste of that perspective as a guide, a beacon. When we intellectually grasp it and try to live as if it were truly realized in our life before it is ripe, it doesn't work - just as Rigdzin Trinley warns us. On the other hand, when we truly do have that taste we begin to spontaneously and effortlessly let go of that need, that desire to achieve or avoid; and the goal is already, naturally released. We're already there. 

 

If we have to think about whether or not goals are necessary then, in general, I would say yes, we are still living a normal life where goals are a natural and necessary motivating factor. Letting go of hope (goals) before we are ready can lead to confusion and a sense of hopelessness, a lack of support. The long and rigorous training methods that the Daoists and Buddhists practice may be different but I think they take us in a similar direction - they prepare and eventually bring us to the point where we are ready to truly let go. So many of us think we are ready before we are and I think that in and of itself can be a serious obstacle to forward movement.

 

As long as goals are helping us to move our lives in a direction consistent with our core values, they are valuable and necessary. Once we have arrived - we know we are exactly what and where we need to be in life; then the characteristics of hope and fear are naturally and spontaneously liberated. Until we're at that point, I think we should make good use of a tool as valuable as setting and working towards goals.  

[Karl]

Truly let go of what ?

 

Your goal is to let go of the goal of letting go, but not to have the goal of letting go until you are ready to let go ?

 

To train until you have such dispassionate non attachment that life does not have any more value than death ? It's obvious where that philosophy takes you and that kind of Nihlist thinking will saturate you every day activities.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Karl

[blue eyed snake]

If you mean during meditation ? then there is no goal except to do the practice and only that. Any goal conjured up is entirely imaginary. So, you get attached to an imaginary outcome ? . :-)

 

ah no, I wrote: " I try to set reasonable goals for myself and not become attached to the outcome. But i do need goals to go forward. Not to become attached to the outcome btw, is also a goal"

 

I was not thinking about meditation when i wrote that, but regarding meditation my only goal is that I want to sit every day for a while. That means the goal is that i take my little seat and sit down on it, that's it.

At the moment that's far less, but it's what's alright for now, i do not eat myself out for not sitting enough, the rhythm of it will come back all by itself.

[blue eyed snake]

Old River puts it way better then I can, so in repeat

 

>>>

 

I think what the problem really is here is that "goals" and "attachment to the outcome" are thought of as if they were synonymous.  They usually are synonymous, of course-- because its a habit we grow into at an early stage in life.  But it is possible to have goals without being attached to them. 

 

One way you know it is an "attachment" in this sense is this: if you get upset, angry, or sad about when a goal isn't met.  We associate these negative feelings with failure instead of accepting it for what is simply is: a goal not being met.  It is a fact, not a judgment.  The negative feelings are something "extra" added to the failure that isn't necessary.  It just clouds up our minds even more.

 

<<<

[doc benway]

So much good stuff in this thread!

 

I think goals are natural and necessary in our lives. The masters often speak from the perspective of the natural state, absolute truth, the Dao. They give us a glimpse, a taste of that perspective as a guide, a beacon. When we intellectually grasp it and try to live as if it were truly realized in our life before it is ripe, it doesn't work - just as Rigdzin Trinley warns us. On the other hand, when we truly do have that taste we begin to spontaneously and effortlessly let go of that need, that desire to achieve or avoid; and the goal is already, naturally released. We're already there. 

 

If we have to think about whether or not goals are necessary then, in general, I would say yes, we are still living a normal life where goals are a natural and necessary motivating factor. Letting go of hope (goals) before we are ready can lead to confusion and a sense of hopelessness, a lack of support. The long and rigorous training methods that the Daoists and Buddhists practice may be different but I think they take us in a similar direction - they prepare and eventually bring us to the point where we are ready to truly let go. So many of us think we are ready before we are and I think that in and of itself can be a serious obstacle to forward movement.

 

As long as goals are helping us to move our lives in a direction consistent with our core values, they are valuable and necessary. Once we have arrived - we know we are exactly what and where we need to be in life; then the characteristics of hope and fear are naturally and spontaneously liberated. Until we're at that point, I think we should make good use of a tool as valuable as setting and working towards goals.  

 

 

I assume you're referring to my post above?

Truly let go of what ?

The goals (hope) that the OP is referring to.

 

Your goal is to let go of the goal of letting go, but not to have the goal of letting go until you are ready to let go ?

No, the point I'm making is that goals are good and valuable as long as one feels they are needed.

There may come a time when there is no need for goals, when that happens it will be very clear and effortless.

 

To train until you have such dispassionate non attachment that life does not have any more value than death ? It's obvious where that philosophy takes you and that kind of Nihlist thinking will saturate you every day activities.

What you point out is a a real problem that can occur. It is the result of improper view and training.

I see it often in people who are too focused on the intellectual understanding of emptiness and not enough direct experience in meditation.

It is one reason why having a good teacher is valuable rather than learning solely from books.

The true result of proper practice is quite different from the nihilistic depression you describe.

Edited April 21, 2016 by steve

[Karl]

I didn't call it nihilistic depression Steve. I called it nihilistic. To wit, the desire for bodily, or intellectual death. Death of the ego in one or both forms.

 

If you believe you are not doing this then let go of the attachment to the idea of it, otherwise set to with rope and tree branch. There is no 'getting to'. What is, is. You can do that, or do another thing.

 

Use meditation as a method of dropping the whirling mind stuff-which includes things like emptiness, clarity and effortlessness. Drop attachment to those things and then see where you are. You are never more than one thought from where you think you should be. It's that one thought that prevents you seeing it.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Karl

[doc benway]

I didn't call it nihilistic depression Steve. I called it nihilistic. To wit, the desire for bodily, or intellectual death. Death of the ego in one or both forms.

 

If you believe you are not doing this then let go of the attachment to the idea of it, otherwise set to with rope and tree branch. There is no 'getting to'. What is, is. You can do that, or do another thing.

 

Use meditation as a method of dropping the whirling mind stuff-which includes things like emptiness, clarity and effortlessness. Drop attachment to those things and then see where you are. You are never more than one thought from where you think you should be. It's that one thought that prevents you seeing it.

 

Thanks for the advice, Karl.

[Marblehead]

Set only goals that are going to happen on there own, naturally.

 

That way you will have no disappointments.

[Karl]

Set only goals that are going to happen on there own, naturally.

 

That way you will have no disappointments.

 

LOL :-)