Acrophobia & Vertigo

[dust]

Acrophobia being 'extreme or irrational fear of heights'

 

Vertigo being 'a sensation of whirling and loss of balance, associated particularly with looking down from a great height, or caused by disease affecting the inner ear or the vestibular nerve'

 

(putting this in 'Healthy Bums' because in my case it is related to exercise, and potentially related to diet and certain treatments..)

 

I've always feared heights, usually with the dizzy unbalanced sensation described above -- on a bridge, a tall building, a cliff edge, a ladder, etc, but also on much smaller heights, sometimes even something as low as my knees (e.g. a chair, if I feel like I might fall off).

 

So...

How can I overcome this nonsense? It's been a nuisance for a long time, keeping me from doing and enjoying certain things in life, including looking out of my own window in some apartments I've lived in, and it's currently keeping me from expanding my training (into bouldering, parkour, etc).

 

For the first time I've decided to try and put some genuine effort into overcoming it. Yesterday I climbed up onto a tree stump, about chest height, and stood up. Almost instantly I became very dizzy and a little nauseated, and had to concentrate very hard just to lower myself to a sitting position. I think I was lucky not to topple off. Just thinking about it now is making me feel slightly sick.

 

Does anyone have experience with all this?

 

What about incremental exposure to heights? If I stay with it every day for, say, a year, will it eventually 'cure' the vertigo? Can one re-calibrate the brain like so?

 

Might acupuncture or other treatments help? A type of qigong or other practice?

 

[Karl]

Rather than standing on something completely open on all sides I suggest trying some easy scrambling at a low grade and gradually working up to steeper grades. The most important thing is not the height but the exposure. So, looking over a balcony is very exposed, where as walking along a ridge with very gradual sloping sides and plenty of outcrops of rock is low exposure. Increase the level of exposure not the height.

 

If you have inner ear problems-I have MD-then it's more dizziness than fear. I still climb despite it, but I have to be very deliberate. Same deal on the motorcycle where hairpin and long steady turns can have me struggling to get a fix on where I am. On bad days I can't do so much, just got to be a bit more careful not to go walking along cliff edges :-)

Edited April 20, 2016 by Karl

[Karl]

As an aside DB, a fear of heights is totally healthy. I was walking up in the Austrian Alps with a guy who is an ex lightning pilot. He is capable of riding motorcycles at extreme speeds and doesn't switch on until 120mph.

 

We came across one of those platforms they build for tourists to walk out on and look down through the grid work to the valley floor. He asked me if I wanted a picture taken and I said yes. Then I offered to take his picture, but he was having none of it. Absolutely nothing would drag him onto that platform.

 

I was like you for many years. When young I could get two rungs up a step ladder without needing to be rescued. Climbing really helped. You are on a rope so you aren't going anywhere. Even if you freeze you can be let slowly back down. Facing into the Rock working out the moves takes away much of the direct anxiety and you can begin proving to yourself that you can manage it. Over time the fear gets less, but it never goes away completely- which is a good thing

Edited April 20, 2016 by Karl

[dust]

Yes.. exposure. If there's something stable to lean against, or if I'm sitting down, the dizziness and fear subside a lot. Probably should have thought about all that before climbing the stump, but honestly didn't think it would be so bad.

 

Meniere's? That can't be fun

 

For me, nothing as bad as MD, but I suppose it's something to do with the inner ear.. I get dizzy very easily from turning around just once too fast. I also just read an article about research suggesting that acrophobics have trouble with vertical perception, e.g. thinking that something 5ft high is actually 15ft, or 15ft is 50ft, and responding more or less accordingly.

 

As you say, I don't expect the fear to go away, and I realize that everyone has the fear to some extent. I do hope that working through it will help to lessen the vertigo. I shall try and figure out a method for gradually increasing exposure, and then height. Though no rocky outcrops around here..

[Andrei]

 When you get up quickly from horizontal position or crouched position to standing do you get dizzy? If yes you have overactive adrenals, you are adrenal type.

 

[thelerner]

No experience with it, but I think you've got the right idea.  Starting slowly, real slowly, making sure you have easy wins, and working your way up.  That and NLP techniques like imagining happy things then imagining climbing a ladder to get an ice cream.  Do that a few times. 

 

I bet there's a hypnotic script for it in youtube.. hold on.. 

not a hypnotic script but.. maybe helpful

I like Jason Stephenson's stuff. I'll make them into mp3's.   Haven't watched this one, but its on acute anxiety. 

 

and remember falling never hurt anyone. 

 

 

Its always the landing

Edited April 20, 2016 by thelerner

[Songtsan]

Exposure therapy. Gradual incline.

[Karl]

Yes.. exposure. If there's something stable to lean against, or if I'm sitting down, the dizziness and fear subside a lot. Probably should have thought about all that before climbing the stump, but honestly didn't think it would be so bad.

 

Meniere's? That can't be fun

 

For me, nothing as bad as MD, but I suppose it's something to do with the inner ear.. I get dizzy very easily from turning around just once too fast. I also just read an article about research suggesting that acrophobics have trouble with vertical perception, e.g. thinking that something 5ft high is actually 15ft, or 15ft is 50ft, and responding more or less accordingly.

 

As you say, I don't expect the fear to go away, and I realize that everyone has the fear to some extent. I do hope that working through it will help to lessen the vertigo. I shall try and figure out a method for gradually increasing exposure, and then height. Though no rocky outcrops around here..

 

Yes MD although the Doctor isn't 100%. These things can be so interrelated. I have had migraines all my life, then blood pressure and tinnitus followed. I can have extreme bouts of-I describe it as motion sickness-like free fall, which can be pretty debilitating. Good days and bad days really. On good days, mild dizziness which doesn't stop me. On bad days I have to take it easy and the attacks can last several days with a lot of fatigue after that. Damned annoying when I've been so active and fit all my life, but you learn to adapt.

 

Is your fear of heights related to anything that happened in childhood. In other words a phobia, rather than a psycho/physical anomaly ? It's possible to switch off a phobia-sometimes temporarily, at least enough to accept increasing challenges. A bit like a nicotine patch for smokers. Sometimes it's permanent. Lerner mentioned NLP-I did several succesful phobia switches (that's the bit of NLP which is pretty benign and helpful). You don't need a full hypnotic script, just light trance which happens anyway when people are asked to imagine the particular aspects of their phobia.

 

If it isn't past trauma then the only option is increasing exposure. You won't lose the fear, but you will handle the height better. If you think about it, most people wouldn't be too happy to find themselves standing on the top of an electricity pylon, but with gradual exposure, then the height stops being an issue. It's almost the inverse of what you said. For instance I can free climb in a cave several hundred feet up, which I wouldn't do if I could actually see the cave floor. In effect, for you, all that is required is to shut your eyes and the height problem vanishes. So, it doesn't matter if you are stood on a brick, or a sky scraper as long as you can balance well enough. Try walking to your apartment window blindfolded, then, when you are there, just imagine your eyes are open and you can see to the ground. When the fear gets too intense, just shuffle back a few feet and take off the blindfold. Keep doing that until the fear lessens.

[dust]

 When you get up quickly from horizontal position or crouched position to standing do you get dizzy? If yes you have overactive adrenals, you are adrenal type.

 

Interesting idea, but no, it's not the getting up itself. I stand up from sitting on the floor or crouching many times each day with no problem... thanks for the suggestion though.

 

 

No experience with it, but I think you've got the right idea.  Starting slowly, real slowly, making sure you have easy wins, and working your way up.  That and NLP techniques like imagining happy things then imagining climbing a ladder to get an ice cream.  Do that a few times.

 

I bet there's a hypnotic script for it in youtube.. hold on..

 

I'll watch them in a minute. Thanks.

 

 

 

Exposure therapy. Gradual incline.

 

Sounds like the ticket so far.

 

Do you have experience with it?

 

 

 

Yes MD although the Doctor isn't 100%. These things can be so interrelated. I have had migraines all my life, then blood pressure and tinnitus followed. I can have extreme bouts of-I describe it as motion sickness-like free fall, which can be pretty debilitating. Good days and bad days really. On good days, mild dizziness which doesn't stop me. On bad days I have to take it easy and the attacks can last several days with a lot of fatigue after that. Damned annoying when I've been so active and fit all my life, but you learn to adapt.

 

That is pretty shit. Sounds like you've done pretty well with it (recalling your mention of climbing etc)

 

 

Is your fear of heights related to anything that happened in childhood. In other words a phobia, rather than a psycho/physical anomaly ? It's possible to switch off a phobia-sometimes temporarily, at least enough to accept increasing challenges. A bit like a nicotine patch for smokers. Sometimes it's permanent. Lerner mentioned NLP-I did several succesful phobia switches (that's the bit of NLP which is pretty benign and helpful). You don't need a full hypnotic script, just light trance which happens anyway when people are asked to imagine the particular aspects of their phobia

 

My father is very similar in his reactions, though I'm not sure if it's that I learned the behaviour from him as a child, or inherited it genetically. (The vertigo doesn't seem like something one can learn from observation though..)

 

I don't think it's anything to do with childhood trauma.

 

 

If it isn't past trauma then the only option is increasing exposure. You won't lose the fear, but you will handle the height better. If you think about it, most people wouldn't be too happy to find themselves standing on the top of an electricity pylon, but with gradual exposure, then the height stops being an issue. It's almost the inverse of what you said. For instance I can free climb in a cave several hundred feet up, which I wouldn't do if I could actually see the cave floor. In effect, for you, all that is required is to shut your eyes and the height problem vanishes. So, it doesn't matter if you are stood on a brick, or a sky scraper as long as you can balance well enough. Try walking to your apartment window blindfolded, then, when you are there, just imagine your eyes are open and you can see to the ground. When the fear gets too intense, just shuffle back a few feet and take off the blindfold. Keep doing that until the fear lessens.

 

Heh. Cave climbing sounds fun...and incredibly dangerous! You use mats? I suppose they'd be fairly useless from that height?

 

The blindfold thing sounds solid. I'm not on a 25th floor any more but even from lower down it might have some effect.

 

Thanks for all the thoughts

[Karl]

300 feet up and a lot of chunks of sharp limestone betwixt me and the floor-mats wouldn't help. I used to solo above ground, but only bouldering where the moves were more difficult but the drop was less, or on easier climbs- up to the old severe standard which is still pretty airy. I couldn't do that now without getting back leading.

 

If your Father has the problem I suspect it's learned behaviour which is more difficult than trauma to eradicate-after all it has kept you perfectly safe all these years :-) and your living doesn't depend on standing on high places.

 

Have you ever abseiled ? I'm thinking that you might find somewhere local like a climbing wall, structure, quarry or building to hook up with a few climbers who can get you to start to feel comfortable from the safety of a rope.

 

For the blindfold thing, I was thinking back to the time when there was a cave that I wanted to do, but it was horribly tight. Basically a body sized tube with right angled turns in which a stream if water flowed. It was rated extremely difficult and for pipe cleaner size people only. I knew it would be very claustrophobic as it was next to impossible to reverse out if I got stuck and it went on for 400 yards.

 

I trained for this during a job I was on. It was an underground valve chamber with a network of pipes close to the wall and it was pitch black. I forced myself behind the pipes and turned off the light. Then I imagined myself stuck. After several minutes I began to wonder if I was actually stuck and had to work to control the rising panic. After several longer and longer sessions I was able to confront the cave. I didn't make it, I did get stuck and I did begin to panic, but the training allowed me to overcome it and reverse, painfully-back out.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Karl

[dust]

If your Father has the problem I suspect it's learned behaviour which is more difficult than trauma to eradicate-after all it has kept you perfectly safe all these years :-)

 

Well, yes. In terms of common sense, survival, the instinct has served me well. I've never even broken a bone.

 

In terms of "living life to the fullest", though... I'm afraid it has held me back. I've never even broken a bone!

 

I suspect knowing about my grandfather might help make clear whether it's learned or genetic. I will try and find out.

 

 

Have you ever abseiled ? I'm thinking that you might find somewhere local like a climbing wall, structure, quarry or building to hook up with a few climbers who can get you to start to feel comfortable from the safety of a rope.

 

Abseiled once, as a teen. One of those outdoors team-building adventure trips with school. Terrible time.

 

I love bouldering, and went to a climbing centre a few months ago to see about higher climbs with ropes. Just seeing the height of the walls from below was enough to make me turn around. Maybe worth trying again now I have more drive to overcome.

 

 

For the blindfold thing, I was thinking back to the time when there was a cave that I wanted to do, but it was horribly tight. Basically a body sized tube with right angled turns in which a stream if water flowed. It was rated extremely difficult and for pipe cleaner size people only. I knew it would be very claustrophobic as it was next to impossible to reverse out if I got stuck and it went on for 400 yards.

 

I trained for this during a job I was on. It was an underground valve chamber with a network of pipes close to the wall and it was pitch black. I forced myself behind the pipes and turned off the light. Then I imagined myself stuck. After several minutes I began to wonder if I was actually stuck and had to work to control the rising panic. After several longer and longer sessions I was able to confront the cave. I didn't make it, I did get stuck and I did begin to panic, but the training allowed me to overcome it and reverse, painfully-back out.

 

Edited April 21, 2016 by dustybeijing

[Karl]

Walls can be fun, but outdoors is better on a natural crag. It's very-excuse the esoteric-grounding to get hands on natural rock and work out the route for hands and feet. Bouldering-how I mean it- is more gymnastics than climbing. Very useful for that parkour training.

[dust]

Yeah, I have every intention of getting somewhere to do it outside. Eventually..

 

Indeed it is much more gymnastic than I expected when I started last year!

 

Come to think of it -- I meant to mention it earlier -- an odd thing: I don't get the vertigo when I'm up a bouldering wall. Certainly some fear of falling, especially falling backwards, but when I get to the top, mostly no problem hopping off. And it's usually at least twice as high as the tree stump. But I trust my hands, and there is a soft mat. Perhaps I should find a gymnastics gym and try some incremental stuff with mats below me...

Edited April 21, 2016 by dustybeijing

[Karl]

Yeah, I have every intention of getting somewhere to do it outside. Eventually..

 

Indeed it is much more gymnastic than I expected when I started last year!

 

Come to think of it -- I meant to mention it earlier -- an odd thing: I don't get the vertigo when I'm up a bouldering wall. Certainly some fear of falling, especially falling backwards, but when I get to the top, mostly no problem hopping off. And it's usually at least twice as high as the tree stump. But I trust my hands, and there is a soft mat. Perhaps I should find a gymnastics gym and try some incremental stuff with mats below me...

 

There you go, you don't really have vertigo. It's hard to argue you have it when you do that. What you have is a general fear of exposure which is very common. My wife struggles to walk over a footbridge if she can see through the boards.

[dust]

Well, yeah.. I'm not determined to believe that it is vertigo. I'd be glad to know it's just based in fear. But the dizziness and imbalance remain a problem.

 

Hopefully it is indeed based solely in fear, not physiology -- and if I believe it is, I should be able to master it. Not something I've ever believed I can do.

 

[Karl]

Well, yeah.. I'm not determined to believe that it is vertigo. I'd be glad to know it's just based in fear. But the dizziness and imbalance remain a problem.

 

Hopefully it is indeed based solely in fear, not physiology -- and if I believe it is, I should be able to master it. Not something I've ever believed I can do.

 

 

Even if it is physiological it's just part of something that has to be managed.

[gendao]

The Share Guide: In CranioSacral Therapy, how are evaluation and treatment carried out?

 

Dr. John: Our treatment is all done hands-on, and our evaluation is all done hands-on. There's an example I can talk about where the patient doesn't have any problem with sharing. Perhaps you remember an Olympic diver, Mary Ellen Clark. She won the bronze medal on the high platform in Atlanta. Mary Ellen was suffering from vertigo (dizziness), which is common to high divers. She had been all over the country. She came to see me in September in hopes that she could make a comeback. She had to lay off diving for about four months prior to that. So I evaluated her and I'm looking for stuck places in the craniosacral rhythm or the way it broadcast through the body. Her problem is dizziness, so she's been treated by all kinds of ear, nose and throat specialists and other doctors, but nothing worked. She couldn't dive. So I scanned her body as we would do in a craniosacral examination. What I found out was a lot of the problem was coming from the lower end down at the sacrum and up the dural tube (of that tube of membrane) into the head and then restricting the right temporal bone. This in turn was causing her to get dizzy, because your balance mechanisms are located in the temporal bone. The normal mobility of 10-12 cycles per minute motion was restricted in that temporal bone. Now, it wouldn't do any good to move the temporal bone if you don't get the reason why it's stuck. That came from down in her lower back. Tracing from her lower back what I wound up with is she had an old injury in her left knee that was coming muscle-wise and fascia-wise up into her low back, restricting her sacrum. That was compromising the activity of her craniosacral system, which in turn was screwing up her temporal bone and making her dizzy. I got her knee fixed and then everything else was a piece of cake, and she was back to diving again. And then she won the bronze medal at the Olympics.

Although according to her...she was trying EVERYTHING and didn't seem to attribute much to the craniosacral therapy?

[dust]

Thanks. Not sure how I missed your post.

I guess it's unlikely that I share her exact problem but it does share intriguing similarities with my case (history of knee pain, major muscle imbalances and inflexibility in lower body).

 

I'm certainly very aware of mistrusting my legs/feet. Climbing, walking on rocky terrain, getting over walls, standing at a height, etc -- all related to a fear of falling but also mistrust of my feet. I realize this is a tangent from what your post describes, but in either case perhaps continued focus on addressing the imbalances will help.

[Songtsan]

Sounds like the ticket so far.

 

Do you have experience with it?

 

Yeah, with heights and spiders, also dating! lol